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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 12, 2020 21:40:27 GMT
Umm, no. Usually when you have a movie like that where the actors are seen as a team where they complement each other then they both get the nod. Morgan Freeman stood out in that movie and the relationship between the two of them was an important aspect of the film. Everyone should reference my thread in the Oscar/Awards thread about actors who have been successful in general but not in one award like BAFTA for Denzel - covered a lot of this stuff. Peter Finch won - won 5 BAFTA awards and didn't have an Oscar nod until the last few years of his life, there's a lot of weird stuff ........not sure of the reason, it's complicated though definitely in a lot of cases.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 21:42:18 GMT
I don't think BAFTA is racist (I don't think the Oscars are, either). It just looks particularly bad this year because there were so many options to choose from in terms of worthy performances from people of color - not always the case.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 12, 2020 21:42:27 GMT
It is amazing to me how someone here mention unconscious racism and how so many people are quick to say that it doesn't exist. I'm sorry but it does and it happens on a daily. I'm not sure people are saying it doesn't exist just that it's hard to measure and correct and quantify .........as I said, it's part of my actual job and it's a big area of controversy in my field. I think most reasonable people agree it exists but what to do about it is the issue really.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 21:44:02 GMT
I did not say he was not worthy of a nod I am saying that at that time period that was before civil rights and he was seen as the biggest black star ever. Now if you ask people now who replaced him it is Denzel. So I have no idea why the Brits never warm to him but they did not. Maybe Sidney just played their game, who knows. I'm confused by what exactly you're trying to argue here. BAFTA nominated Poitier 6 times for Best Foreign Actor. No actor has ever gotten nominated more times in that category. Do you think BAFTA really thought he was worthy of those nominations, or were they just political nominations? It's like you're trying to argue both sides. And the biggest black movie star ever is Eddie Murphy, not Denzel Washington. And Eddie Murphy does have a BAFTA nomination. He stood out in the movie in your opinion. Perhaps BAFTA felt differently. They had no problem giving Mahershala Ali a BAFTA for a movie with a similar dynamic. Like I said, when BAFTA does nominate a black actor like Poitier to record levels, it apparently doesn't matter because... reasons. But when they do not nominate another black actor for whatever reason, it can only mean racism.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 21:49:27 GMT
It is amazing to me how someone here mention unconscious racism and how so many people are quick to say that it doesn't exist. I'm sorry but it does and it happens on a daily. Nobody said racism (unconscious or otherwise) doesn't exist. We're asking you for evidence that BAFTA is racist (unconsciously or otherwise). And so far, no evidence has been forthcoming on that front.
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Post by quetee on Jan 12, 2020 21:56:14 GMT
It is amazing to me how someone here mention unconscious racism and how so many people are quick to say that it doesn't exist. I'm sorry but it does and it happens on a daily. I'm not sure people are saying it doesn't exist just that it's hard to measure and correct and quantify .........as I said, it's part of my actual job and it's a big area of controversy in my field. I think most reasonable people agree it exists but what to do about it is the issue really. It is not hard to measure it you are POC. It literally happens on a daily. You can't do something about it if people continue to ignore it. I went to upscale grocery store one time and white woman in front of me dressed in workout gear was greeted with smiles and hellos. I was up next, you know how I got treated? No eye contact and no hellos. She ignored me for no reason. She had her head down entire time she scanned my food. I reported her to the supervisor. People should no not to treat people like that.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Jan 12, 2020 21:56:22 GMT
I don't think BAFTA is racist (I don't think the Oscars are, either). It just looks particularly bad this year because there were so many options to choose from in terms of worthy performances from people of color - not always the case. Are they obligated to vote for said people of colour or are they allowed to have their own opinion?
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Jan 12, 2020 21:58:46 GMT
I'm not sure people are saying it doesn't exist just that it's hard to measure and correct and quantify .........as I said, it's part of my actual job and it's a big area of controversy in my field. I think most reasonable people agree it exists but what to do about it is the issue really. It is not hard to measure it you are POC. It literally happens on a daily. You can't do something about it if people continue to ignore it. I went to upscale grocery store one time and white woman in front of me dressed in workout gear was greeted with smiles and hellos. I was up next, you know how I got treated? No eye contact and no hellos. She ignored me for no reason. She had her head down entire time she scanned my food. I reported her to the supervisor. People should no not to treat people like that. Maybe because she's working in a fucking shop and doesn't wanna be there. You're making it sound like that's never happened to anyone else. It's happened to me. The simple fact is you clearly wanna be a victim.
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Post by quetee on Jan 12, 2020 22:03:29 GMT
I did not say he was not worthy of a nod I am saying that at that time period that was before civil rights and he was seen as the biggest black star ever. Now if you ask people now who replaced him it is Denzel. So I have no idea why the Brits never warm to him but they did not. Maybe Sidney just played their game, who knows. I'm confused by what exactly you're trying to argue here. BAFTA nominated Poitier 6 times for Best Foreign Actor. No actor has ever gotten nominated more times in that category. Do you think BAFTA really thought he was worthy of those nominations, or were they just political nominations? It's like you're trying to argue both sides. And the biggest black movie star ever is Eddie Murphy, not Denzel Washington. And Eddie Murphy does have a BAFTA nomination. He stood out in the movie in your opinion. Perhaps BAFTA felt differently. They had no problem giving Mahershala Ali a BAFTA for a movie with a similar dynamic. Like I said, when BAFTA does nominate a black actor like Poitier to record levels, it apparently doesn't matter because... reasons. But when they do not nominate another black actor for whatever reason, it can only mean racism. I was not around during that time period so all I can do is speculate. That time period was very political. Everyone knows Sidney was well respected and the first black person to win Oscar. I have no idea how they saw this whole thing. Fine it is my opinion but like I said they complement each other. Eddie was biggest box office draw but he is not respected like Denzel. The thing with Denzel is that he didn't become relevant till 90's. He did not cross over early like Eddie.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 12, 2020 22:04:50 GMT
I'm not sure people are saying it doesn't exist just that it's hard to measure and correct and quantify .........as I said, it's part of my actual job and it's a big area of controversy in my field. I think most reasonable people agree it exists but what to do about it is the issue really. It is not hard to measure it you are POC. It literally happens on a daily. You can't do something about it if people continue to ignore it. I went to upscale grocery store one time and white woman in front of me dressed in workout gear was greeted with smiles and hellos. I was up next, you know how I got treated? No eye contact and no hellos. She ignored me for no reason. She had her head down entire time she scanned my food. I reported her to the supervisor. People should no not to treat people like that. Oh I agree with you and yet unconscious behavior is not something that can be corrected necessarily - that's the argument at least - that you can't just "shape" people to be what we "want" because it's functionally out of their control - not entirely but in many ways. The unconscious applied to the conscious. The article itself explained it in detail the problems that come up with unconscious behavior and training so if anyone would like to reference that, click on the link further up in this thread and my first post as well if people are curious but didn't read the article. On the other hand, some behavior can be corrected too - unconscious or conscious - it's a fascinating thing really but hard to get a handle on too.
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Post by iheartamyadams on Jan 12, 2020 22:05:55 GMT
I really like Erivo, but I’m glad to see her being called out here. I wasn’t going to bother commenting on AW, mainly because she gets dragged enough, but yeah, she’s so full of it with this. As if she had any way of knowing how the votes would go when she initially decided to wait until after the announcements to confirm. She 100% wanted to wait to see if she’d be nominated and is only now trying to make it a racial issue because it sounds better than the truth, which is that is was and still is all about her.
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Post by quetee on Jan 12, 2020 22:07:34 GMT
It is not hard to measure it you are POC. It literally happens on a daily. You can't do something about it if people continue to ignore it. I went to upscale grocery store one time and white woman in front of me dressed in workout gear was greeted with smiles and hellos. I was up next, you know how I got treated? No eye contact and no hellos. She ignored me for no reason. She had her head down entire time she scanned my food. I reported her to the supervisor. People should no not to treat people like that. Maybe because she's working in a fucking shop and doesn't wanna be there. You're making it sound like that's never happened to anyone else. It's happened to me. The simple fact is you clearly wanna be a victim. You have no right to tell me how I should feel about that incident. That is what happened and that gave her no right to treat the other person better. She worked in an upscale shop and should have treated each customer fairly. That's like saying Oprah was playing victim when some white lady wouldn't let her see the more expensive bag cause that woman thought she couldn't afford it.
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Post by quetee on Jan 12, 2020 22:08:35 GMT
It is amazing to me how someone here mention unconscious racism and how so many people are quick to say that it doesn't exist. I'm sorry but it does and it happens on a daily. Nobody said racism (unconscious or otherwise) doesn't exist. We're asking you for evidence that BAFTA is racist (unconsciously or otherwise). And so far, no evidence has been forthcoming on that front. They admitted they had a problem. If not then why say anything???
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jan 12, 2020 22:09:20 GMT
It is amazing to me how someone here mention unconscious racism and how so many people are quick to say that it doesn't exist. I'm sorry but it does and it happens on a daily. Nobody said racism (unconscious or otherwise) doesn't exist. We're asking you for evidence that BAFTA is racist (unconsciously or otherwise). And so far, no evidence has been forthcoming on that front. Asking for evidence of unconscious bias...did I read that right? Is it not enough that professionals in the industry and industry commentators (not just Film Twitter) have called them out, including their own members? No one's pointing fingers at any one individual. It's not implicitly racist to prefer Robbie (twice lmao) over Zhao Shuzhen, the issue goes much deeper than personal opinion and it should in a body comprised of thousands of members whose ballots are supposed to represent the best of the industry. That's all anyone's saying. Well, at least that's all I'm saying. And pointing out POCs who have been awarded in the past is literally the "I have a black friend" argument, and it's the equivalent of saying that no one who voted for Obama is racist or has any unconscious racial bias. That is a non-argument. I don't want to die on this hill because what the fuck do I know, but seeing people pressed about BAFTA potentially trying to improve their system to be more inclusive seems needlessly petulant and defensive to me. Have nothing else to say on this issue.
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Post by quetee on Jan 12, 2020 22:13:56 GMT
It is not hard to measure it you are POC. It literally happens on a daily. You can't do something about it if people continue to ignore it. I went to upscale grocery store one time and white woman in front of me dressed in workout gear was greeted with smiles and hellos. I was up next, you know how I got treated? No eye contact and no hellos. She ignored me for no reason. She had her head down entire time she scanned my food. I reported her to the supervisor. People should no not to treat people like that. Oh I agree with you and yet unconscious behavior is not something that can be corrected necessarily - that's the argument at least - that you can't just "shape" people to be what we "want" because it's functionally out of their control - not entirely but in many ways. The unconscious applied to the conscious. The article itself explained it in detail the problems that come up with unconscious behavior and training so if anyone would like to reference that, click on the link further up in this thread and my first post as well if people are curious but didn't read the article. On the other hand, some behavior can be corrected too - unconscious or conscious - it's a fascinating thing really but hard to get a handle on too. You would think, treat people how you want to be treated should work but it is amazing how it doesnt.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 22:26:15 GMT
They admitted they had a problem. If not then why say anything??? They didn't admit they had a problem. Certain people said they were "disappointed" or "infuriated". Either way, even if they had admitted they had a problem, it's the same thing that happened with the Oscars in 2016, and I can post facts showing how the Academy was actually awarding disproportionately more Black Americans than White Americans in the 21st century. Can you provide any actual evidence for how BAFTA is racist? And, no, comments by people saying they were "disappointed" isn't evidence. And you also mentioned the change in rule. I can't for the life of me understand how affirmative action is evidence of racism. If anything, it's the other way around.
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Post by quetee on Jan 12, 2020 22:29:18 GMT
I don't think BAFTA is racist (I don't think the Oscars are, either). It just looks particularly bad this year because there were so many options to choose from in terms of worthy performances from people of color - not always the case. I think part of the problem is that they are not watching the movie which is on another level of bias. The Queen and Slim director said Globe voters didn't go to the screenings? Why? The movie has a former Oscar nominee so why not check it out? I'm guessing subject matter. Was it seen as too black? And they felt they couldn't relate. Stuff like that shouldn't matter.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 22:33:00 GMT
I don't think BAFTA is racist (I don't think the Oscars are, either). It just looks particularly bad this year because there were so many options to choose from in terms of worthy performances from people of color - not always the case. I think part of the problem is that they are not watching the movie which is on another level of bias. The Queen and Slim director said Globe voters didn't go to the screenings? Why? The movie has a former Oscar nominee so why not check it out? I'm guessing subject matter. Was it seen as too black? And they felt they couldn't relate. Stuff like that shouldn't matter. My guess would be because there was so little buzz for the film and its performances.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 22:35:39 GMT
Asking for evidence of unconscious bias...did I read that right? I'm asking for evidence for how this "unconscious bias" has manifested itself in the reality of BAFTA voting practices. If it hasn't manifested itself in reality, what exactly is the problem here? No, it isn't. Like I said, the same shit happened with the Oscars in 2016 and I can post facts showing how that was entirely BS. A disproportionately large number of Black Americans had won Oscars in the 21st century when the #OscarsSoWhite controversy reared its ugly and misinformed head, so we already know Twitter outrage and virtue signaling is completely meaningless. This is a very strange thing to say. If it's the equivalent of saying, "I have a black friend!" to point out that lots of non-whites have been nominated in the past, it's the equivalent of saying, "You have no black friends!" when you complain that BAFTA has not nominated enough non-whites. When all the whining is about non-whites not being nominated by BAFTA, how the fuck do you expect people to respond except to point out that lots of non-white have, in fact, been nominated by BAFTA in the past? What exactly even is the problem here?
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Post by quetee on Jan 12, 2020 22:38:21 GMT
I think part of the problem is that they are not watching the movie which is on another level of bias. The Queen and Slim director said Globe voters didn't go to the screenings? Why? The movie has a former Oscar nominee so why not check it out? I'm guessing subject matter. Was it seen as too black? And they felt they couldn't relate. Stuff like that shouldn't matter. My guess would be because there was so little buzz for the film and its performances. The movie overperformed at box office so there was some buzz. And Daniel is a hot actor and a brit. The director of film couldn't believe they didn't show up to three different screening but hey all 90 of them showed up to Taron's bday party. Lmao!!!
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 22:40:41 GMT
I was not around during that time period so all I can do is speculate. That time period was very political. Everyone knows Sidney was well respected and the first black person to win Oscar. I have no idea how they saw this whole thing. Poitier had 3 BAFTA nominations even before he got Oscar-nominated for the role that won him his Oscar, so that argument doesn't work. And I'd much prefer if you stuck to the facts rather than speculation. BAFTA nominated Poitier 6 times for Best Foreign Actor, which is no less anybody else in their history. That's a fact.
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erickeitel
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Post by erickeitel on Jan 12, 2020 22:50:25 GMT
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Post by ibbi on Jan 12, 2020 22:51:43 GMT
Nobody said racism (unconscious or otherwise) doesn't exist. We're asking you for evidence that BAFTA is racist (unconsciously or otherwise). And so far, no evidence has been forthcoming on that front. Asking for evidence of unconscious bias...did I read that right? Is it not enough that professionals in the industry and industry commentators (not just Film Twitter) have called them out, including their own members? No one's pointing fingers at any one individual. It's not implicitly racist to prefer Robbie (twice lmao) over Zhao Shuzhen, the issue goes much deeper than personal opinion and it should in a body comprised of thousands of members whose ballots are supposed to represent the best of the industry. That's all anyone's saying. Well, at least that's all I'm saying. And pointing out POCs who have been awarded in the past is literally the "I have a black friend" argument, and it's the equivalent of saying that no one who voted for Obama is racist or has any unconscious racial bias. That is a non-argument. I don't want to die on this hill because what the fuck do I know, but seeing people pressed about BAFTA potentially trying to improve their system to be more inclusive seems needlessly petulant and defensive to me. Have nothing else to say on this issue. I think the ask is, if reading rationally, more to provide some sort of rational reasoning why an awards body that for well over half a century has been repeatedly nominating non-white actors should have this hysterical outrage aimed at it because one year they ended up with a bunch of white nominees. If things can be done to broaden the scope of BAFTA voters then I for one am certainly not opposed to it. I just question why people have to make so big a deal out of so little a thing. Literally, one year and it's a god damn outrage. Also, again and again people are making this "I have a black friend" dismissal. What's the deal? Literally, one side is saying BAFTA has a race issue, the other side is saying BAFTA has (and they have, it's not a rumour or a theory) nominated people of numerous ethnicities over and over and over again for decades, and that's not an appropriate response... Why? Because they never nominated Washington and Freeman? Because in literally one year things got whitewashed? Can we get a level headed response to this? Why is pointing out that an institution being accused of discrimination has a long, long, long track record of being diverse to the point that we get laughable nominees like Freida Pinto not a legitimate counter point to this melodrama?
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Post by quetee on Jan 12, 2020 23:02:31 GMT
Asking for evidence of unconscious bias...did I read that right? Is it not enough that professionals in the industry and industry commentators (not just Film Twitter) have called them out, including their own members? No one's pointing fingers at any one individual. It's not implicitly racist to prefer Robbie (twice lmao) over Zhao Shuzhen, the issue goes much deeper than personal opinion and it should in a body comprised of thousands of members whose ballots are supposed to represent the best of the industry. That's all anyone's saying. Well, at least that's all I'm saying. And pointing out POCs who have been awarded in the past is literally the "I have a black friend" argument, and it's the equivalent of saying that no one who voted for Obama is racist or has any unconscious racial bias. That is a non-argument. I don't want to die on this hill because what the fuck do I know, but seeing people pressed about BAFTA potentially trying to improve their system to be more inclusive seems needlessly petulant and defensive to me. Have nothing else to say on this issue. I think the ask is, if reading rationally, more to provide some sort of rational reasoning why an awards body that for well over half a century has been repeatedly nominating non-white actors should have this hysterical outrage aimed at it because one year they ended up with a bunch of white nominees. If things can be done to broaden the scope of BAFTA voters then I for one am certainly not opposed to it. I just question why people have to make so big a deal out of so little a thing. Literally, one year and it's a god damn outrage. Also, again and again people are making this "I have a black friend" dismissal. What's the deal? Literally, one side is saying BAFTA has a race issue, the other side is saying BAFTA has (and they have, it's not a rumour or a theory) nominated people of numerous ethnicities over and over and over again for decades, and that's not an appropriate response... Why? Because they never nominated Washington and Freeman? Because in literally one year things got whitewashed? Can we get a level headed response to this? Why is pointing out that an institution being accused of discrimination has a long, long, long track record of being diverse to the point that we get laughable nominees like Freida Pinto not a legitimate counter point to this melodrama? Well, I don't understand how you give Parasite four nods like that and not one actor can score a nod? The same thing happened with Roma. I can understand if the movies were action packed and the characters were secondary but that is not the case with both of those films.
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Post by dazed on Jan 12, 2020 23:17:16 GMT
Until anyone can provide evidence that BAFTA has had issues with diversity, this is a non issue and the conversations are pointless. Until then, this sounds like a case of sour grapes. They created new rules And it looks really bad that after twitter got all pissed about it and put them on blast, they changed background to show two black people winning. Sorry to me that was annoying. If they really thought it was no big deal just leave header alone but nope...rhey did they oh...but but i got a black friend card. That was tacky. Not really the ‘evidence’ I was looking for.
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