dadsburgers
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Post by dadsburgers on Jan 12, 2020 4:34:42 GMT
Disparaging a woman of color for deciding not to perform for an awards body that has known issues with diversity isn't a good look. Nobody is disparaging her for not performing. It's a free country and she doesn't have to do anything she's not comfortable doing. It's clear that she was only going to perform if she got nominated (which is why she was going to wait until nominations were announced to let them know if she would), so to now make it a race issue is disingenuous. She's mad she wasn't nominated and wouldn't have performed even if Lopez and Nyong'o were nominated. It has nothing to do with BAFTA's "diversity issues" (which I haven't seen anyone actually present any evidence that they exist). Wouldn't she also wait for nominations if she was anticipating a potential #BAFTASsowhite situation, regardless of her own film? Disappointing white allies are standing with her or making similar decisions/statements, as they aren't going to be accused of the same entitlement Erivo inherently always will be.
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dadsburgers
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Post by dadsburgers on Jan 12, 2020 4:35:48 GMT
You can certainly argue it being disingenuous and entitled, but I'm pretty confident she would have performed had Lopez and Nyong'o been nominated. So you think she was waiting on her decision to perform or not until after the nominations to see if Lopez and Nyong'o were nominated? Yes, or I at least don't see a reason to presume that's definitely not the case.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 4:36:47 GMT
Man, the list is long! Toshiro Mifune and Takashi Shimura, Karuna Banerjee, I.S. Johar, Poitier, Dandridge, Diana Ross, Cicely Tyson, Cathy Tyson, Rita Moreno, Kingsley, Rohini Hattangadi, Ngor, Vic Banerjee, Roshan Seth, Saeed Jaffrey, Whoopi, Sam Jackson, Jean-Baptiste, Om Puri, Benicio, Eddie Murphy, Jamie Foxx, Michelle Yeoh, Ziyi Zhang, Halle Berry, Salma Hayek, Gael and Rodrigo, Newton, Freida fucking Pinto, Bardem and Cruz, Sidibe, Mo'Nique, Octavia, Viola, Ejiofor, Lupita, Barkhad Abdi, Idris, Mahershala, Fucking Dev Patel, friggin' Oprah, Naomie Harris, Kaluuya, Malek, and Scarlett Johansson. You sly bastard.
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dadsburgers
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Post by dadsburgers on Jan 12, 2020 4:37:17 GMT
For the record, I wouldn't consider voting for her for Best Actress this year because I found her performance as Harriet Tubman disappointing (especially compared to her work last year in Bad Times at the El Royale). But, the issue is bigger than her, and I think that's the point she wants to make.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 4:41:21 GMT
Yes, or I at least don't see a reason to presume that's definitely not the case. I can't blame you for choosing to give her the benefit of doubt. But I had read about the deferment of her decision a while before BAFTA nominations were announced, so I was always under the impression she would only perform if she was nominated. Which is perfectly fair. I might have done the same, honestly. So to now see her make it a race issue seems very dishonest to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 11:58:30 GMT
LOL, like she would have performed if Lopez and Nyong'o were nominated at BAFTA. This is just disingenuous at best and entitlement at worst. ^Agreed.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Jan 12, 2020 12:32:28 GMT
Disparaging a woman of color for deciding not to perform for an awards body that has known issues with diversity isn't a good look. It doesn't have issues, she's entitled and you're insufferable.
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Post by JangoB on Jan 12, 2020 13:11:07 GMT
I just wonder what people mean when they accuse the BAFTAs of being racist. And what the BAFTA officials mean when they say they'll do an internal review because of this issue. There're several thousand of members in the organization - do the offended accusers really think that there's some sort of conspiracy going on with all the members being in some secret agreement not to nominate people of color? How do they plan to reverse it - hold seminars with BAFTA members and teach them not to be racist? This is all so silly. I'd understand the accusations if it was like a 10-people organization. But this supposed racism is just the result of hundreds and hundreds of ballots being counted. Call me naive but I sincerely believe that there's no issue to talk about here. Unless the BAFTA members hold secret meetings where they decide on which POC contenders not to vote for.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 12, 2020 13:28:16 GMT
In general it's a problem unless you can offer quantifiable proof - might there be a problem, maybe.....but our reaction to it usually masks the issue or makes it worse. Denzel Washington summed it up best and his answer, quoted below, is simple, yet broad and logical. We are rarely so logical about it - particularly when discussing something as staggeringly stupid as the Awards races and which performers "deserve" an award nod: Playboy: So the perception of a race issue could be an author imposing his contractual clout to see a movie that reflects how he wrote the characters in his (John Grisham) books.
Washington: He absolutely has that right. He wrote the books. Look: If I had been nominated eight times and didn't win, there would be all kinds of charges of racism. But Al Pacino got nominated for an Oscar eight times before he finally won for Scent of a Woman. Does Pacino blame racism against Italian Americans? It's too easy. Does racism exist? Yes. Do I get bogged down with it and give up? No.genius.com/Playboy-playboy-interview-denzel-washington-annotated
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Post by DanQuixote on Jan 12, 2020 13:30:18 GMT
I think a general overhaul of the voting body or the voting process like what has happened with the Academy recently is needed at BAFTA.
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Post by DanQuixote on Jan 12, 2020 13:36:33 GMT
What I'd suggest is a voting process similar to what BIFA uses. Using juries for all major categories at the nominations stage to whittle down the contenders to a more manageable number for the wider membership to digest. You can read more about it here.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Jan 12, 2020 14:34:57 GMT
What I'd suggest is a voting process similar to what BIFA uses. Using juries for all major categories at the nominations stage to whittle down the contenders to a more manageable number for the wider membership to digest. You can read more about it here. No
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 12, 2020 14:45:41 GMT
I just wonder what people mean when they accuse the BAFTAs of being racist. And what the BAFTA officials mean when they say they'll do an internal review because of this issue. There're several thousand of members in the organization - do the offended accusers really think that there's some sort of conspiracy going on with all the members being in some secret agreement not to nominate people of color? How do they plan to reverse it - hold seminars with BAFTA members and teach them not to be racist? This is all so silly. I'd understand the accusations if it was like a 10-people organization. But this supposed racism is just the result of hundreds and hundreds of ballots being counted. Call me naive but I sincerely believe that there's no issue to talk about here. Unless the BAFTA members hold secret meetings where they decide on which POC contenders not to vote for. Most pervasive racism in society is the result of unconscious bias. It's social conditioning based on stereotypes, but it prevents people from getting jobs, makes employers more likely to overlook someone if they have an "ethnic" sounding name, that type of thing. In the case of BAFTA, unconscious bias likely plays a big part in how they value the work of white artists compared to non-white artists. It's the springboard of inequality.The idea of Ku Klux Klan style conspiracies are nonsense, but ultimately it's still racism. It also affects women as well in fields where men are given far more opportunity and percieved to be "better" (like directing).There have been interesting studies on unconscious bias that you might want to read about; www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/02/unconscious-bias-what-is-it-and-can-it-be-eliminated
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 12, 2020 14:52:48 GMT
I think a general overhaul of the voting body or the voting process like what has happened with the Academy recently is needed at BAFTA. It's pretty much guaranteed to happen at this stage. They had to do something similar with the British Music Academy, The Brits.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jan 12, 2020 14:53:03 GMT
Does anyone have a statistical breakdown of BAFTA's members? The crux of this issue isn't which nominees are being picked (the old "I have a black friend" defense) but who's doing the picking, which itself is really the tip of the iceberg. Celebrating a POC performer doesn't preclude someone from being a part of a system that's stacked against people of color, and the first step to addressing it is just to include more diverse in the perspectives in the voting pool. If BAFTA had only nominated Lopez or only Nyong'o it still would have looked bad, but excluding POCs from the acting fields entirely looks catastrophically out of touch.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 12, 2020 15:22:28 GMT
Unconscious bias is part of what I do for a living actually - statistical analysis and predictive analytics. It's a big grey area because by very definition it's the unconscious applied to the conscious act. It a valid area of study and consulting firms pay a ton to understand it but like the article linked above said:
“There’s definitely a risk that training can make things worse,” said Nosek. “There has been too much leaping to applications that the evidence doesn’t yet support. Diversity training is full of good intentions and weak evidence.”
This is why all kinds of things inherent in it defy logic - it doesn't mean you ignore it but it has its fair share of critics too - ie you can like Quizno's more than Subway but not to walk more than 10 feet further for Quizno's - so if you opened a Quizno's you may be bankrupt............ you can like every Democrat more than Trump in a poll but like your job and fear losing it if you vote Democrat (or a POC Democrat etc.) - then the complaint would be the polls were "wrong".
More precisely related to BAFTA - looking at Greta Gerwig directing another Little Women and then not voting for her, isn't unconscious bias, it's a mere fact - it may be unfair to exclude her right off the bat, but our brain balances both facts and activity that is in your unconscious too .........and trying to change the way people disseminate thought processes is a not a completely fathomable thing.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Jan 12, 2020 15:30:34 GMT
I just wonder what people mean when they accuse the BAFTAs of being racist. And what the BAFTA officials mean when they say they'll do an internal review because of this issue. There're several thousand of members in the organization - do the offended accusers really think that there's some sort of conspiracy going on with all the members being in some secret agreement not to nominate people of color? How do they plan to reverse it - hold seminars with BAFTA members and teach them not to be racist? This is all so silly. I'd understand the accusations if it was like a 10-people organization. But this supposed racism is just the result of hundreds and hundreds of ballots being counted. Call me naive but I sincerely believe that there's no issue to talk about here. Unless the BAFTA members hold secret meetings where they decide on which POC contenders not to vote for. Most pervasive racism in society is the result of unconscious bias. It's social conditioning based on stereotypes, but it prevents people from getting jobs, makes employers more likely to overlook someone if they have an "ethnic" sounding name, that type of thing. In the case of BAFTA, unconscious bias likely plays a big part in how they value the work of white artists compared to non-white artists. It's the springboard of inequality.The idea of Ku Klux Klan style conspiracies are nonsense, but ultimately it's still racism. It also affects women as well in fields where men are given far more opportunity and percieved to be "better" (like directing).There have been interesting studies on unconscious bias that you might want to read about; www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/02/unconscious-bias-what-is-it-and-can-it-be-eliminatedHorseshit. It's a visual medium and they're frequently awarded or nominated non-white ethnic people with different sounding names. Plus you're getting this shite from the Guardian. The biggest Corbynista paper in the country.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Jan 12, 2020 15:32:27 GMT
Does anyone have a statistical breakdown of BAFTA's members? The crux of this issue isn't which nominees are being picked (the old "I have a black friend" defense) but who's doing the picking, which itself is really the tip of the iceberg. Celebrating a POC performer doesn't preclude someone from being a part of a system that's stacked against people of color, and the first step to addressing it is just to include more diverse in the perspectives in the voting pool. If BAFTA had only nominated Lopez or only Nyong'o it still would have looked bad, but excluding POCs from the acting fields entirely looks catastrophically out of touch. So if there were more let's say black people then they'd vote for more black people. Isn't that in itself racist? Can blacks not vote for white people? Do they only think of themselves?
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Post by ibbi on Jan 12, 2020 15:59:19 GMT
Does anyone have a statistical breakdown of BAFTA's members? The crux of this issue isn't which nominees are being picked (the old "I have a black friend" defense) but who's doing the picking, which itself is really the tip of the iceberg. Celebrating a POC performer doesn't preclude someone from being a part of a system that's stacked against people of color, and the first step to addressing it is just to include more diverse in the perspectives in the voting pool. If BAFTA had only nominated Lopez or only Nyong'o it still would have looked bad, but excluding POCs from the acting fields entirely looks catastrophically out of touch. As the one who claimed they have known issues with diversity, then if that is indeed the crux of the issue, surely you should be the one telling us?
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Post by finniussnrub on Jan 12, 2020 16:12:23 GMT
Does anyone have a statistical breakdown of BAFTA's members? The crux of this issue isn't which nominees are being picked (the old "I have a black friend" defense) but who's doing the picking, which itself is really the tip of the iceberg. Celebrating a POC performer doesn't preclude someone from being a part of a system that's stacked against people of color, and the first step to addressing it is just to include more diverse in the perspectives in the voting pool. If BAFTA had only nominated Lopez or only Nyong'o it still would have looked bad, but excluding POCs from the acting fields entirely looks catastrophically out of touch. Well the most recent demographics of the UK are 87% white, 7% Asian, 3% black. If this were the demographics of BAFTA voters, would you say it is diverse enough?
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filmnoir
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Post by filmnoir on Jan 12, 2020 16:26:08 GMT
If BAFTA had only nominated Lopez or only Nyong'o it still would have looked bad, but excluding POCs from the acting fields entirely looks catastrophically out of touch. What hurt Lopez was that Hustlers isn't that popular with the Brits. And the feedback was that her performance wasn't consider Oscar caliber. Nyong'o was previously nominated for 12YAS. But she also missed Globe this year. So it could the genre - US being a horror pic.
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Post by wilcinema on Jan 12, 2020 16:37:50 GMT
For the record, I wouldn't consider voting for her for Best Actress this year because I found her performance as Harriet Tubman disappointing (especially compared to her work last year in Bad Times at the El Royale). But, the issue is bigger than her, and I think that's the point she wants to make.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 16:45:00 GMT
Most pervasive racism in society is the result of unconscious bias. It's social conditioning based on stereotypes, but it prevents people from getting jobs, makes employers more likely to overlook someone if they have an "ethnic" sounding name, that type of thing. In the case of BAFTA, unconscious bias likely plays a big part in how they value the work of white artists compared to non-white artists. It's the springboard of inequality.The idea of Ku Klux Klan style conspiracies are nonsense, but ultimately it's still racism. It also affects women as well in fields where men are given far more opportunity and percieved to be "better" (like directing). Wait, so now it's "unconscious"? Weren't you saying earlier that they were deliberately snubbing Washington to make a point? Which is it?
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Jan 12, 2020 16:52:04 GMT
As the one who claimed they have known issues with diversity, then if that is indeed the crux of the issue, surely you should be the one telling us? It's interesting how nobody has actually come forward to present any kind of evidence that BAFTA is racist with their picks. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 12, 2020 17:18:07 GMT
Most pervasive racism in society is the result of unconscious bias. It's social conditioning based on stereotypes, but it prevents people from getting jobs, makes employers more likely to overlook someone if they have an "ethnic" sounding name, that type of thing. In the case of BAFTA, unconscious bias likely plays a big part in how they value the work of white artists compared to non-white artists. It's the springboard of inequality.The idea of Ku Klux Klan style conspiracies are nonsense, but ultimately it's still racism. It also affects women as well in fields where men are given far more opportunity and percieved to be "better" (like directing). Wait, so now it's "unconscious"? Weren't you saying earlier that they were deliberately snubbing Washington to make a point? Which is it? Cool story bro
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