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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 21, 2024 22:48:44 GMT
* Isn't part of the value humans judging the artistic expression? * If so, then that is subjective and not an objective winner.........that is the whole beauty of sports that we can agree that the Kansas City Chiefs won the Super Bowl and people can keep their "opinions" out of t.........now I will say that there i s a subjetive element in all sports (ie what happened to Sinner at Monte Caro) - but Gymnastics and other such sports is weighed too heaviy on human perception and feelings........ It doesn't bother me if people feel they are sports but for this thread, for me, Coco Gauff - among many, many others - is a more serious athlete than any gymnast .... You have no idea of how many hours practice per day are required for gymnastics and ice skating. I attended a bunch of Swiss national figure ice skating Championships, and the impression live is totally different than TV. They don't do it for glory, mostly for passion, and that's the spirit of sports. Well that presupposes that I care about how many hours are required ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) ..........what concerns me is rooting interest - I can not root for a "sport" where the outcome is entirely in the hands of human judges...........if people want to follow it, great .........consider it a "sport", okay.......I don't want to have it declared NOT a sport after all ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) ...........I just see it differently for myself thats all - no big deal really.........
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cherry68
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Man is unhappy because he doesn't know he's happy. It's only that.
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Post by cherry68 on Apr 21, 2024 22:57:26 GMT
You have no idea of how many hours practice per day are required for gymnastics and ice skating. I attended a bunch of Swiss national figure ice skating Championships, and the impression live is totally different than TV. They don't do it for glory, mostly for passion, and that's the spirit of sports. Well that presupposes that I care about how many hours are required ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) ..........what concerns me is rooting interest - I can not root for a "sport" where the outcome is entirely in the hands of human judges...........if people want to follow it, great .........consider it a "sport", okay.......I don't want to have it declared NOT a sport after all ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) ...........I just see it differently for myself thats all - no big deal really......... Well, don't call Gauff "a more serious athlete" than a skater only because you root for her. Btw, not less than 6 hours per day.
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Post by countjohn on Apr 21, 2024 23:19:28 GMT
I wasn't going to get into that part of the discussion at first, but yes, gymnastics is definitely a sport. The scoring system (particularly after the changes that came in for the 16 Olympics) is rigid enough I don't really think it's "subjective" anymore, if the judges did turn in a different decision it would be fair to call them "wrong" like when a ref blows a call in another sport. Which doesn't mean football, baseball, or basketball are "subjective" and not sports either. Figure skating is still in a bit of a grey area and maybe gymnastics was too 20 years ago or so but not really anymore.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Apr 22, 2024 13:39:51 GMT
This gymnastics ain't a sport take is a take I'm not gonna ride. It's subjective for sure, but it's still a sport. Not gonna care about no Under-18 Gold Medals. As for summer Olympics..... US hasn't lost that since 1980, so I'm not gonna ride that either. Long way to go before touching Gods like Jordan and Messi. * 2 of the World Titles were over 16 (she was 17 in 1 against 18+ older players and she was 19 in the other) - so she has won something - and done it twice against adults - and to say she hasn't won anthing is objectively false and dumbfuck...........also we know she's winning that Olympic Gold ........ as for that WNBA title - ok I'll wait it out ........and no she ain't Messi, Jordan or Djokovic * But I stand by the no gymnasts thing...........not buying it. It's "half a sport" .........so it's a kind of sport but not really, ftw....... For most, they feel sports have two major components: 1) athleticism, and 2) a clear objective winner. Gymnastics lacks the second component. Games like poker and chess satisfy the second condition, but not the first.Do you consider any of bowling, billiards, darts, or nascar to be sports? I personally do not.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 22, 2024 14:04:49 GMT
* 2 of the World Titles were over 16 (she was 17 in 1 against 18+ older players and she was 19 in the other) - so she has won something - and done it twice against adults - and to say she hasn't won anthing is objectively false and dumbfuck...........also we know she's winning that Olympic Gold ........ as for that WNBA title - ok I'll wait it out ........and no she ain't Messi, Jordan or Djokovic * But I stand by the no gymnasts thing...........not buying it. It's "half a sport" .........so it's a kind of sport but not really, ftw....... For most, they feel sports have two major components: 1) athleticism, and 2) a clear objective winner. Gymnastics lacks the second component. Games like poker and chess satisfy the second condition, but not the first.Do you consider any of bowling, billiards, darts, or nascar to be sports? I personally do not. Not really tbh but F1 I do consider a sport though - so I'm sure people will call that hypocritical and that's ok too, it's all good but for the thread I don't rank all "athletics" as equal under that umbrella term.......but I don't consider itthat big of a deal really.........but I mean darts, bowling and driving to me are just 3 things I do while drinking heavily.............that was a joke MAR
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Post by countjohn on Apr 22, 2024 16:14:56 GMT
* 2 of the World Titles were over 16 (she was 17 in 1 against 18+ older players and she was 19 in the other) - so she has won something - and done it twice against adults - and to say she hasn't won anthing is objectively false and dumbfuck...........also we know she's winning that Olympic Gold ........ as for that WNBA title - ok I'll wait it out ........and no she ain't Messi, Jordan or Djokovic * But I stand by the no gymnasts thing...........not buying it. It's "half a sport" .........so it's a kind of sport but not really, ftw....... For most, they feel sports have two major components: 1) athleticism, and 2) a clear objective winner. Gymnastics lacks the second component. Games like poker and chess satisfy the second condition, but not the first.Do you consider any of bowling, billiards, darts, or nascar to be sports? I personally do not. I think you can make an argument for billiards or darts in that it's a specific skill like throwing a football or baseball. Definitely not for bowling or driving though.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Apr 22, 2024 16:19:11 GMT
If golf is a sport, which nobody really seems to dispute, then I see no reason why bowling, billiards, darts, and racing wouldn't be. All of them require physical and mental skills, endurance, and direct competition.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 22, 2024 16:32:02 GMT
If golf is a sport, which nobody really seems to dispute, then I see no reason why bowling, billiards, darts, and racing wouldn't be. All of them require physical and mental skills, endurance, and direct competition. My biggest thing is with racing (like F1). I respect that it's a dangerous and difficult thing to do, but so much is dependent on the car, not the driver. That's why Lewis Hamilton can go from looking like the GOAT of F1, but as soon as another team & car gets upgrades, he can't win a race again, and now Max Verstappen is unbeatable and looks like he could end up the GOAT statistically. And as soon as someone gets a more dominant car for several seasons, same thing will happen to Verstappen. It's about the engineering, not so much the "athlete". Racing is an advertising event for billion dollar manufacturers and car companies. It never truly feels like legitimate competition and you never truly know who the "best" driver is. You just know which team has the best car. It's still a sport, but not exactly a fair or equitably competitive sport. I think Gymnasts and sportswoman Simone Biles, even with the judging element, are more genuinely competitive "athletes/sportspeople" than F1 Drivers. Their "sport" is a lot fairer and equitable in terms of deciding who the actual "best" is.
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Post by quetee on Apr 22, 2024 16:45:55 GMT
Well, if you go to Oxford dictionary right now and look up the word sport all these things being bashed as not a sport would qualify.
There is no sense of downplaying someone's else talent in a sport they excel in.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 22, 2024 16:52:15 GMT
Well, if you go to Oxford dictionary right now and look up the word sport all these things being bashed as not a sport would qualify. There is no sense of downplaying someone's else talent in a sport they excel in. I mean, I agree. I still see F1 as a sport, despite it clearly not being a fair one in terms of competition because of the huge equipment advantages between drivers. It still requires talent, skill and physical exertion to do it at the highest level. But if you consider F1 a sport, and you have the time and energy to bag on Gymnastics for not being a "real sport" because of a judging element, then you aren't a serious person, imho. They're either all sports or they're not. Some sports are fairer than others.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Apr 22, 2024 17:50:25 GMT
If golf is a sport, which nobody really seems to dispute, then I see no reason why bowling, billiards, darts, and racing wouldn't be. All of them require physical and mental skills, endurance, and direct competition. My biggest thing is with racing (like F1). I respect that it's a dangerous and difficult thing to do, but so much is dependent on the car, not the driver. That's why Lewis Hamilton can go from looking like the GOAT of F1, but as soon as another team & car gets upgrades, he can't win a race again, and now Max Verstappen is unbeatable and looks like he could end up the GOAT statistically. And as soon as someone gets a more dominant car for several seasons, same thing will happen to Verstappen. It's about the engineering, not so much the "athlete". Racing is an advertising event for billion dollar manufacturers and car companies. It never truly feels like legitimate competition and you never truly know who the "best" driver is. You just know which team has the best car. It's still a sport, but not exactly a fair or equitably competitive sport. I think Gymnasts and sportswoman Simone Biles, even with the judging element, are more genuinely competitive "athletes/sportspeople" than F1 Drivers. Their "sport" is a lot fairer and equitable in terms of deciding who the actual "best" is. I mean, that's kind of the issue with any sort of team sports (and racing I'd say is a team sport). Like in the NBA right now Jokić is widely considered the best player in the NBA only after his team upgraded and he won the title after years of carrying lesser teams - is he better now than he was 2 years ago? Debatable, but his team undoubtedly is and he reaps the benefit of that. Back in the late 2000s this was the LeBron vs. Kobe argument where LeBron was statistically the better player but Kobe was winning with a superior team and coming through in bigger moments. The racer in the car still definitely matters. Racers race in different styles, different accounts for risk, different philosophies for handling tracks and how to pace themselves. The car gives edges and advantages, but if the racer is too conservative/aggressive, lacks the endurance, whatever then the lesser car can still win. Only when you get the right combination of driver and car is the team unbeatable.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 22, 2024 18:00:49 GMT
My biggest thing is with racing (like F1). I respect that it's a dangerous and difficult thing to do, but so much is dependent on the car, not the driver. That's why Lewis Hamilton can go from looking like the GOAT of F1, but as soon as another team & car gets upgrades, he can't win a race again, and now Max Verstappen is unbeatable and looks like he could end up the GOAT statistically. And as soon as someone gets a more dominant car for several seasons, same thing will happen to Verstappen. It's about the engineering, not so much the "athlete". Racing is an advertising event for billion dollar manufacturers and car companies. It never truly feels like legitimate competition and you never truly know who the "best" driver is. You just know which team has the best car. It's still a sport, but not exactly a fair or equitably competitive sport. I think Gymnasts and sportswoman Simone Biles, even with the judging element, are more genuinely competitive "athletes/sportspeople" than F1 Drivers. Their "sport" is a lot fairer and equitable in terms of deciding who the actual "best" is. I mean, that's kind of the issue with any sort of team sports (and racing I'd say is a team sport). Like in the NBA right now Jokić is widely considered the best player in the NBA only after his team upgraded and he won the title after years of carrying lesser teams - is he better now than he was 2 years ago? Debatable, but his team undoubtedly is and he reaps the benefit of that. Back in the late 2000s this was the LeBron vs. Kobe argument where LeBron was statistically the better player but Kobe was winning with a superior team and coming through in bigger moments. The racer in the car still definitely matters. Racers race in different styles, different accounts for risk, different philosophies for handling tracks and how to pace themselves. The car gives edges and advantages, but if the racer is too conservative/aggressive, lacks the endurance, whatever then the lesser car can still win. Only when you get the right combination of driver and car is the team unbeatable. Yes, but in team sports like basketball ( or soccer) It's 100% the physical and mental skills of the best individuals players that make the difference. You get the right combination stars and role players, you win Championships. It's at least fairly easy to ascertain whom the best individual players are, with their stats (goals, assists, baskets etc). With F1, it's something like 20% the physical and mental skills of the driver, 80% the car.If you have Daniel Ricciardo switch cars with Max Verstappen, Ricciardo wins most of the races and the championships. That's just how it works. They are both excellent drivers. You need to be a great, high level driver to even get on an F1 team in the first place. But ultimately, the best car wins. Drivers make a difference, but not nearly enough to say that dominance in F1 is based truly on the driver, not the car. You've had drivers who were not neccesarily considered the best or most talented on the grid, win F1 championships the minute they got a dominant car ( Jenson Button, Damon Hill)
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 22, 2024 18:23:20 GMT
I don't really think this argument is quite as simple as is it a sport or not (Oxford Dictionary ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) ) - I mean this shit / discussion isn't anything new - and no one "really cares" - if you don't consider something a sport - ignore it.......pfffft............. and while to me Gymnastics is admirable and impressive it's "half a sport" compared to Women's Basketball and Coco Gauff (sorry, not sorry) you can say anything in the Olympics is a sport ffs .....so Synchronized Swimming and this year flag football - go watch that I guess - it's all good ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) Woody Allen - the "big time" Spike Lee ![:uhoh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/c8bbBnLz3a98Jzy_29H2.gif) addressed this topic - hilariously - 50 years ago in one of his best performances, The Front: "Swimming's not a sport. Swimming is what you do so you shouldn't drown"![](https://crackedrearviewer.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/tf2.png)
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Apr 22, 2024 18:28:24 GMT
Well, if you go to Oxford dictionary right now and look up the word sport all these things being bashed as not a sport would qualify. There is no sense of downplaying someone's else talent in a sport they excel in. I’m not downplaying the talent of any of those individuals. I think a lot of activities require skill and/or athleticism yet I would not consider them sports.
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Post by countjohn on Apr 22, 2024 18:52:07 GMT
If golf is a sport, which nobody really seems to dispute, then I see no reason why bowling, billiards, darts, and racing wouldn't be. All of them require physical and mental skills, endurance, and direct competition. Golf requires a lot more direct athletic ability (physical strength, body control, hand eye coordination) than most of those. Like I said, I think billiards and darts you can make the case that it's like throwing a baseball, swinging a golf club, working on a jump shot, exc where it's a learned physical skill even if you don't have to be that athletic to be good at it. Just not seeing that with racing, calling something that you do while sitting down a sport is just kind of a nonstarter to me
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cherry68
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Man is unhappy because he doesn't know he's happy. It's only that.
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Post by cherry68 on Apr 22, 2024 21:43:36 GMT
pupdurcsI think recent decades rules in Formula 1 damaged the competition. Like, you can't wave to avoid being surpassed. If you go outside track limits you get a time penalty. I remember when teams had a spare car in the pit and the pilot could grab it if his car got damaged or broke the engine (even running by foot to the pit). I lived just in front of Monza circuit so I started watching at really young age (I remember terrible Lauda 's accident). I don't think someone with the enormous talent of Gilles Villeneuve (Villeneuve father, not the son) could raise such enthusiasm with today's rules and style. That said, I understand some rules are for safety. But some grand prix races got really boring.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Apr 23, 2024 2:46:33 GMT
This discussion reminds me of the scene in Big where Tom Hanks and John Heard are playing paddleball (couldn't find it on YouTube): "My best sport is video hockey." "That isn't a sport." "Well, it takes eye-to-hand coordination." "It's not a sport if you don't sweat." "Well, what about golf? You don't sweat and that's a sport." "It's not a sport if you let a machine do all the work." "What about car racing?" "Aw, shut up, Baskin!" ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif)
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 23, 2024 18:14:01 GMT
Just leaving this here - this sold out quickly although how quickly s unclear ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) -it's a 20,000+ seat arena in the OPPOSING market - before her 1st pro game after being moved to the bigger arena FOR her ........there has never been a female athlete that has ever done that kind of thing at all or driven revenue like this in multiple ways...... not Serena Williams, not Martina Navrotilova, not Simone Biles (she fncking wishes), not Iga Swiatek......no one.....and if she's not known in Peru or Egypt she will be very soon.......we are lucky to be witnessing history .........so let's not argue about the athletic achievement of darts and stuff, k? ![:grouphug:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/H7iGS0eK7Bua5qxzMOco.gif)
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 24, 2024 8:47:21 GMT
Clark won the Sullivan Award last night (Best Amateur Athlete College & Olympics) - the only person ever to win it twice (she won last year also) .......Biles won it in 2020 (as a co-winner tie)......
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 25, 2024 18:15:09 GMT
Oh I'm sure you do America hating wackadoodle, I'm sure you do......Simone Biles probably does too.......28 million +++ will do that people ..........pfffft
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Apr 26, 2024 15:32:25 GMT
Not really sure what the barometer is here, but neither my wife or mom know who Clark is but they both know Biles.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 26, 2024 16:18:00 GMT
Not really sure what the barometer is here, but neither my wife or mom know who Clark is but they both know Biles. Check back with them after those commercials start airing........I thnk people answered this question EVER.......instead of right now, current or new(er) athletes.......or in a few months. where they will be...... This is from March.......what do you think it is now just a few weeks later? Yeah......exactly........and of course Simone Biles is half an athlete anyway (ducks, run for cover)........ Iowa's Caitlin Clark ranked first in name recognition. Among the general public 44 percent affirmed that they had heard of Clark. That number rose to 58 percent of sports fans and 68 percent of avid fans. Clark's identification level was more than two times greater than any other college athlete on the list - Mar 20, 2024
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 27, 2024 7:35:34 GMT
Just putting this here .........I know this is just the US but no other female has EVER done this.......she will have a gold medal in a few months........she will have moved more money in betting, tickets, ad revenue, merch and peripherals than any other female athlete by the time she's done........she will have her own shoe ffs and it's gonna be huge......it's just a matter of time when her name goes global......... you can't stop what's coming ......pffft
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Post by pupdurcs on May 10, 2024 7:33:16 GMT
Since this board (and thread) has been weirdly dominated by Caitlin Clark conversations for months (thank goodness that's probably over for a while ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) ), it's interesting to note that Clark does have a serious rival in popularity who beat her in the 2023 National College Basketball Finals, Angel Reese. Reese was by far the most followed female College Basketball in terms of social media followers ( 2.7 million Instagram followers for Reese to 1.2 million Instagram followers for Clark), though you'd never guess it the way the conversation has centered soley on Clark. Reese debut WNBA pre-season game for the Chicago Sky wasn't televised, but got upwards of 2 million views in someone's cellphone stream. Those massive numbers have forced the WNBA to recognise that Clark is not the only new draft recruit who can move the needle in terms of audiences and getting viewership to games, so they televised her second pre-season game. Looks very much like the smart play to build up women's basketball is to try and build Clark vs Reese as a rivalry in the mould of Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson, instead of acting like Clark is the only star in the league who can grow the game. Reese's jersey has also sold out. She's also a big enough celebrity in America to get invited to this year's Met Gala
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Post by pupdurcs on May 10, 2024 7:55:03 GMT
Reese has also partnered with Reebok to become the first college athlete ever with their own personal apparel brand, sold across Dick's Sporting Goods retail stores.
Depending on how well she performs in the WNBA, Reese clearly has the potential to be a bigger star than Clark ( though Clark is probably the better player), if we are just talking "popularity".
I think Reese is going to have a lot of celebrities courtside at her games, which won't hurt. But yeah, it's actually a good thing for Clark to have a rival in popularity, for women's basketball.
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