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Post by countjohn on Feb 24, 2022 20:06:35 GMT
I see it took a whole two pages before we got some Kremlin propaganda in here.
This is in no way analogous to the Cuban missile crisis as-
A. The missiles were already in Cuba, Ukraine's membership in NATO is purely speculative with no concrete plans for moving forward on that at the moment.
B. The US response to the Cuban missile crisis was a blockade, not a full scale invasion of Cuba to initiate regime change. There was a grand total of one casualty in the entire Cuban missile crisis, more than that have already died today. The analogous thing to the Cuban missile crisis would be if Ukraine was going to imminently join NATO and Putin just massed soldiers at the border as a bluff to try and scare them out of it. This has gone far beyond that.
And really, I have no idea why it's okay for Russia to invade and overthrow the government of Ukraine because sixty years ago the US put a blockade around Cuba for two weeks. Those two things just have nothing to do with each other. And the "hypocrisy" criticism cuts two ways, if you're going to make excuses for this then you don't get to criticize "American imperialism".
No, I don't think we should go barreling in and start WWIII over this but Russia's invasion is still something that should be unequivocally condemned by everyone without grasping at straws to defend it as I've seen in these past few posts.
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Post by countjohn on Feb 24, 2022 20:08:42 GMT
This offers yet another proof that sanctions are worthless and more often than not counterproductive. When European Union imposed sanctions on Belarus, Lukashenko retaliated by unleashing wave of migrants on EU's borders. U.S. unilaterally withdrew from JCPOA and decided to impose sanctions, Iran is now closer to producing nuclear weapons than ever. EU,UK&US sanctioned Russia and Russian missiles are now raining down around Ukraine. How do Western powers intend to respond to increased hostilities ? More sanctions ! It's incredible how they never learn. Western powers should do what needed to be done in the first place: take Russian security concerns seriously and commit in the form of treaty that NATO will not continue to expand eastwards. That is the only way to resolve this conflict and bring bloodshed to an end. I think in the case of the bolded sanctions actually did work but Trump blew up the whole thing by pulling out. As for the second paragraph why does Russia get to decide if Ukraine joins NATO or any other international organization? All I hear is complaining about the US dictating to smaller countries but then when Russia does it it's okay?
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Feb 24, 2022 20:17:45 GMT
As for the second paragraph why does Russia get to decide if Ukraine joins NATO or any other international organization? All I hear is complaining about the US dictating to smaller countries but then when Russia does it it's okay? Because, when the USSR was splitting,in 1991, this is what was promised to them: "We made it clear during the '2 plus 4' negotiation on the reunification of Germany, with the participation of the Federal Republic of Germany, the German Democratic Republic, the United States, the Soviet Union, Great Britain and France, that we do not intend to move the NATO forward beyond the Oder. And therefore, we won't allow Poland or other Central and Eastern European nations the opportunity to join"
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Post by Joaquim on Feb 24, 2022 20:40:18 GMT
This offers yet another proof that sanctions are worthless and more often than not counterproductive. When European Union imposed sanctions on Belarus, Lukashenko retaliated by unleashing wave of migrants on EU's borders. U.S. unilaterally withdrew from JCPOA and decided to impose sanctions, Iran is now closer to producing nuclear weapons than ever. EU,UK&US sanctioned Russia and Russian missiles are now raining down around Ukraine. How do Western powers intend to respond to increased hostilities ? More sanctions ! It's incredible how they never learn. Western powers should do what needed to be done in the first place: take Russian security concerns seriously and commit in the form of treaty that NATO will not continue to expand eastwards. That is the only way to resolve this conflict and bring bloodshed to an end. Every time I’ve heard anything about “sanctions unlike anything you’ve ever seen before” in the past 15hrs I’ve burst out laughing. Do these people know how stupid they sound? Yes let’s impose sanctions that are gonna hit us hard too and the effects won’t even begin to be felt until well after Kiev has fallen. Some serious he/him energy emanating from western leaders But no go ahead and cut off Russia from SWIFT which Putin is gonna consider an act of war. The west is in a no win position here because the only real way forward from here is boots on the ground, and there is no support anywhere for a war with Russia over Ukraine (not our problem). Bold move by Putin hitting the whole country, and not just the East. He took everyone off guard… and there’s probably no use predicting what his next move will be. Invasion was predictable but not quite on this scale. If this pays off for Putin and the army steamrolls its way to Kiev then the west is pinned after all the bluster the past few months. Boots on the ground is the only way forward at this point, any further sanctions will be laughed off. The die is cast
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Post by Pavan on Feb 24, 2022 20:46:15 GMT
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Post by brancaleone on Feb 24, 2022 20:59:19 GMT
This offers yet another proof that sanctions are worthless and more often than not counterproductive. When European Union imposed sanctions on Belarus, Lukashenko retaliated by unleashing wave of migrants on EU's borders. U.S. unilaterally withdrew from JCPOA and decided to impose sanctions, Iran is now closer to producing nuclear weapons than ever. EU,UK&US sanctioned Russia and Russian missiles are now raining down around Ukraine. How do Western powers intend to respond to increased hostilities ? More sanctions ! It's incredible how they never learn. Western powers should do what needed to be done in the first place: take Russian security concerns seriously and commit in the form of treaty that NATO will not continue to expand eastwards. That is the only way to resolve this conflict and bring bloodshed to an end. I think in the case of the bolded sanctions actually did work but Trump blew up the whole thing by pulling out. As for the second paragraph why does Russia get to decide if Ukraine joins NATO or any other international organization? All I hear is complaining about the US dictating to smaller countries but then when Russia does it it's okay? The sanctions were an incredibly stupid decision for multiple reasons. For starters Trump had no reason to impose them, considering the fact that IAEA has confirmed on multiple occasions that Iran was adhering to JCPOA. Secondly, they demonstrated to Iran that West cannot be trusted. Thirdly, they resulted in Iran-China growing more closer than ever, as evidenced by comprehensive trade and military partnership they've announced at the end of last year. Yeah they made a dent in Iran's economy but they've failed to alter Iran's behaviour in any substantial way. And really their effect on Iran's economy wasn't as devastating as the U.S. policymakers have anticipated. Before the COVID outbreak (which brought new problems), Iran's inflation rate was already close to reaching normal levels and IMF&World Bank were even predicting that Iran will have positive GDP growth for the following year. As for the second part of Your comment, Gorbachev has allowed German re-unification to happen with the understanding that NATO will not expand eastwards. Western powers have already breached their promise by allowing Poland, Baltic countries etc to join the alliance. If Western powers continue to ignore Russia's security concerns, I fail to see how this conflict can be resolved.
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Post by countjohn on Feb 24, 2022 21:05:50 GMT
I think in the case of the bolded sanctions actually did work but Trump blew up the whole thing by pulling out. As for the second paragraph why does Russia get to decide if Ukraine joins NATO or any other international organization? All I hear is complaining about the US dictating to smaller countries but then when Russia does it it's okay? The sanctions were an incredibly stupid decision for multiple reasons. For starters Trump had no reason to impose them, considering the fact that IAEA has confirmed on multiple occasions that Iran was adhering to JCPOA. Secondly, they demonstrated to Iran that West cannot be trusted. Thirdly, they resulted in Iran-China growing more closer than ever, as evidenced by comprehensive trade and military partnership they've announced at the end of last year. Yeah they made a dent in Iran's economy but they've failed to alter Iran's behaviour in any substantial way. And really their effect on Iran's economy wasn't as devastating as the U.S. policymakers have anticipated. Before the COVID outbreak (which brought new problems), Iran's inflation rate was already close to reaching normal levels and IMF&World Bank were even predicting that Iran will have positive GDP growth for the following year. I was talking about the sanctions in advance of JCPOA as having "worked" because they forced Iran to negotiate and resulted in the deal being made. No disagreement that Trump withdrawing from the deal and reimposing sanctions was a dumb move.
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Post by Pavan on Feb 25, 2022 15:17:41 GMT
Huh, seems things aren't going smoothly as he planned.
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Post by Pavan on Feb 25, 2022 17:36:08 GMT
Meanwhile..
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Post by Pavan on Feb 25, 2022 18:04:16 GMT
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Post by Pavan on Feb 25, 2022 18:28:28 GMT
Idk exactly what that means but it sounds great.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Feb 25, 2022 18:35:15 GMT
yes Ukraine is putting up a stronger fight than anticipated but they're still woefully outmanned and outgunned and if Putin wants to take this to end he has more than enough firepower to do that. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think this ends until he's captured Kiev and ousted Zelenskyy. It looks very unlikely that NATO or US will supply any troops so it's just a matter of how long and how much more blood has to be spilled before Putin topples Ukraine's democratically-elected administration and installs a puppet state.
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Post by Pavan on Feb 25, 2022 19:12:19 GMT
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Post by JangoB on Feb 25, 2022 20:41:10 GMT
I don't usually get too serious on this forum but the situation compels me to say a few words.
I truly and genuinely hope that you understand that ordinary Russians, at least a lot of them - those who do not spend their days watching propaganda TV (more or less meaning younger people), do not support what is being enacted by our government right now. It feels strange to be utterly ashamed of your home country but here we are. Please do not think that the actions of our powers that be are indicative of what the people actually think. Nobody there has asked for our opinion in a long, long time.
It's impossible for me to imagine the implications this carries for the future (I'm sure I won't be meeting any of you for quite a while now because most countries will probably say FU to any Russian who'll try to get a visa) but I can only hope that the crazy-in-chief will realize the scale of the utter catastrophe that he is executing right now and will stop. Although something tells me that it's a situation of 'I'm far too deep into this shit to backtrack now'.
And I'm not saying this just for the sake of it - I literally have an uncle and cousins (one with children) in one of the Donbas towns which me and my family were visiting almost every year until about 10 years ago when the Russia/Ukraine relationships have truly gone to shit. I'm hoping with every fiber of my being that they're gonna be all right.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Feb 25, 2022 21:11:49 GMT
JangoB Pay attention on what you write here. I'm afraid your government might check it. Stay safe.
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Post by Joaquim on Feb 25, 2022 22:06:23 GMT
Major, major props to Zelensky for staying behind and getting ready to fight instead of cowardly fleeing like so many other western leaders would no doubt do
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 25, 2022 22:38:06 GMT
It feels strange to be utterly ashamed of your home country but here we are. Consider yourself an honorary American
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Post by JangoB on Feb 26, 2022 1:34:22 GMT
JangoB Pay attention on what you write here. I'm afraid your government might check it. Stay safe. Oh, believe me, I was thinking of that quite a lot when I was writing. Which kinda says it all really.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Feb 26, 2022 9:56:53 GMT
/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1497056326123499527%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fit.insideover.com%2Fguerra%2Fil-fantasma-kyiv-un-asso-da-caccia-ucraino-solo-contro-tutti.html
Leaving aside the video isn't probably real and maybe a pilot didn't eliminate 6 aircrafts by himself, but it looks like Russia isn't dominating Ukrainian skies yet.
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Post by Lord_Buscemi on Feb 26, 2022 16:39:33 GMT
If Kyiv is successfully taken over and the government toppled, what actually happens to Zelenskyy? Is he arrested like Navalny or killed? Or does he flee and form a government in exile?
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Feb 26, 2022 18:12:38 GMT
If Kyiv is successfully taken over and the government toppled, what actually happens to Zelenskyy? Is he arrested like Navalny or killed? Or does he flee and form a government in exile? I can't imagine how Putin would be incentivized to keep him alive if he has the opportunity to kill him.
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Post by Pavan on Feb 27, 2022 6:00:45 GMT
Day 4, Kyiv still stands strong.
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Post by Pavan on Feb 27, 2022 14:33:27 GMT
Guy lost his mind.
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Post by themoviesinner on Feb 27, 2022 14:43:47 GMT
Nah, he hasn't lost his mind. He's just doing what leaders of imperialistic countries always do, trying to establish his country's dominance through threats and a foreboding display of it's superior military power.
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Post by Lord_Buscemi on Feb 27, 2022 15:16:23 GMT
I see absolutely no reason why these talks will lead to deescalation, especially this early. What's done is done, no side will agree to either's demands. Why would Russia have risked all this just for a ceasefire a few days in? Ukraine won't agree to refraining from NATO membership after their neighbor conducted the biggest military invasion in Europe since WW2. These talks are just for Russia to flex after recent setbacks.
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