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Post by Pavan on May 31, 2018 15:00:32 GMT
This sums up my thoughts. On one side the film is extremely daring (Kylo and Rey) and the other utterly painful to look at (Finn and Rose). The resistance subplot is so pedestrian that one shouldn't consider to make a film out of it but the movie has some of the best character moments in the Star Wars universe.
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Post by Ryan_MYeah on Jun 4, 2018 19:51:19 GMT
This was a nifty special feature. To anyone who bought The Last Jedi on digital (or has a digital code), through Movies Anywhere they can see an exclusive version with all sound but John Williams’ score muted. So last night I gave it a watch: Here’s my thoughts.
Through all the highs and absolute lows of Star Wars, Williams has always been the one constant stamp of quality in every main entry (and the highlight of Solo). And his touch on the films surely aren’t missed or taken for granted on the part of the filmmakers. I remember seeing Jedi at the Opening Night fan event, and an entire five minute featurette was dedicated to his music. And if that wasn’t enough to show you just how vital he is to the soul of the films, then giving us this isolated listening experience cements it without question.
First off, it’s certainly a testament to how strong the film is, and how top notch a visual storyteller Rian Johnson is, that even with dialogue muted the film is still perfectly comprehensible. That was a great belief of George Lucas as well, that Star Wars should be made that even in silence, the viewer should be able to understand them. So even if you don’t care for these new movies, both Abrams and Johnson have kept admirably to that level of quality, and the construction of sequences and the beautiful visual detail get even more breathing room to come to life.
But now for John Williams. While I will admit that I preferred The Force Awakens, since Williams had he added benefit of a multitude of new themes for new characters and ideas (not to undersell The Last Jedi’s contributions), I think it’s sequel may actually be the stronger complete package. Star Wars, in my opinion, has the greatest musical continuity of any film franchise in history, and seeing him continuing to honor and expand on his melodies never ceases to bring me joy. That expansion is a vital component in which The Last Jedi thrives. This is technically precise Williams at his A game, weaving the traditional themes and their newer counterparts seamlessly together like an elaborate tapestry, with Williams’ reinventing himself in some ways without sacrificing the integrity of his voice, much like the new entries of Star Wars.
So that’s the technicals, how about the content? This is where I have to say to those people who said “The Force Awakens doesn’t stand out” or “John Williams isn’t as good as he used to be”... sorry, but ya wrong. Watch this version, listen to Canto Bight and the fathier chase, the throne room, the battle of Crait and the end credits suite, and *then* tell me that. This is vintage majestic Williams in top form, and I love with each score of his, he crafts his own mini-narratives to offset the film’s, weaving from theme to theme and the characters aligned to them. And few series feel as truly epic in musical stylings as this one does, with Williams bringing tremendous excitement and playfulness to his writing and action material, with the Crait sequences being some of his sharpest writing in years. (And I can’t get enough of him sampling “Aquarella do Brazil”)
But speaking of mini-narratives, this brings me to my next (and perhaps most controversial) point: The standard that all scores should strive to achieve. I’ve often gotten flak for my negative responses to the works of Cliff Martinez and Reznor/Ross, for finding them to be miserable solo experiences, leading to me getting blasted because a score’s primary and sole purpose to should be to serve the narrative, and that should be the mark of a truly great score.
I don’t believe that for one second. Yes, scores should serve the narrative, and not all of them have to be traditionally orchestra based, but the truly great scores should be the ones who can stand apart on their own, as Star Wars has proven time and time again since 1977. It’s my belief that if you’re not taking the score’s individual achievement into account, that’s only doing half the job.
All I want a score to do for me when I’m listening to it is the same for any film; I just want it to tell me a story. Go on an adventure, and tell me all about what they experienced on that adventure. Tell me about the places you visited, the emotions and complex thoughts you had out there, the people that you met. Give them accompanying motifs to let me know what part they played in your journey. Was the location exotic? Reflect the musical stylings of that place to transport me. I want the composer to bring a portrait to life, of everything they learned, so that even without visuals, I can feel what they felt through music. What story am I supposed to get, or what emotions am I supposed to feel from someone repeating the same three notes on a keyboard for four minutes? I’m being facetious, of course, but that’s my belief that a score *should* stand out, a score should be serviced by the film as much as film is serviced by it.
And I think The Last Jedi solidifies that belief that both parties can have it their way. That music should be vital to the soul of a film rather than downplayed. And most certainly that John Willians is not down and out. If anything, his voice is only more confident, and health willing, I feel no worries for Episode IX, or his ability to satisfyingly cap off this new chapter.
PS. Has anyone seen any other features like this one, with isolated score audio? Any you’d have loved to see?
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Jun 4, 2018 20:13:54 GMT
This sums up my thoughts. On one side the film is extremely daring (Kylo and Rey) and the other utterly painful to look at (Finn and Rose). The resistance subplot is so pedestrian that one shouldn't consider to make a film out of it but the movie has some of the best character moments in the Star Wars universe. That video was entirely too kind to the plot of the film as a whole.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jun 4, 2018 20:22:12 GMT
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Post by Ryan_MYeah on Jun 5, 2018 0:32:10 GMT
This sums up my thoughts. On one side the film is extremely daring (Kylo and Rey) and the other utterly painful to look at (Finn and Rose). The resistance subplot is so pedestrian that one shouldn't consider to make a film out of it but the movie has some of the best character moments in the Star Wars universe. I really want to see more essays and critiques in this vein, because for every one of these, they’re buried under 30 Nostalgia Critic wannabe rants.
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Post by Pavan on Jun 5, 2018 6:22:18 GMT
This sums up my thoughts. On one side the film is extremely daring (Kylo and Rey) and the other utterly painful to look at (Finn and Rose). The resistance subplot is so pedestrian that one shouldn't consider to make a film out of it but the movie has some of the best character moments in the Star Wars universe. I really want to see more essays and critiques in this vein, because for every one of these, they’re buried under 30 Nostalgia Critic wannabe rants. One more
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Archie
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Eraserhead son or Inland Empire daughter?
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Post by Archie on Jun 5, 2018 12:37:12 GMT
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Post by Pavan on Jun 5, 2018 17:22:26 GMT
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Post by Pavan on Jun 8, 2018 9:52:57 GMT
This is even better
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Post by Pavan on Jun 9, 2018 16:43:22 GMT
Perhaps the most sensible fan rant i've seen
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Post by Ryan_MYeah on Jun 10, 2018 19:58:55 GMT
If that #DeathTo program from Black Mirror was real, I imagine she and Rian Johnson would have been high up on that list. It’s just disgraceful. I mean, to be in a Star Wars movie is a dream job, something that anyone would kill to have, and now it’s become a nightmare. It makes me feel like an idiot for being in this fanbase, because of how acidic this subset of the culture is. They may be small, but they are loud, they are angry, and desperate to lash out at anything just to give themselves satisfaction (and they’ll say *we’re* the snowflakes). But I now fear for anyone who signs up to be in a Star Wars film from now on, because it’s just going to be the same thing all over again. Why even be a part of something you love if you know people - bitter and unreasonable people - will find any excuse to insult you? Just because you were in it?
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Post by jakesully on Jun 10, 2018 20:52:41 GMT
Fuck The Last Jedi . God I hated this film haha.
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Post by Sharbs on Jun 10, 2018 21:59:49 GMT
If that #DeathTo program from Black Mirror was real, I imagine she and Rian Johnson would have been high up on that list. It’s just disgraceful. I mean, to be in a Star Wars movie is a dream job, something that anyone would kill to have, and now it’s become a nightmare. It makes me feel like an idiot for being in this fanbase, because of how acidic this subset of the culture is. They may be small, but they are loud, they are angry, and desperate to lash out at anything just to give themselves satisfaction (and they’ll say *we’re* the snowflakes). But I now fear for anyone who signs up to be in a Star Wars film from now on, because it’s just going to be the same thing all over again. Why even be a part of something you love if you know people - bitter and unreasonable people - will find any excuse to insult you? Just because you were in it? Daisy did the same after The Force Awakens, it's actually upsetting and you're absolutely right I hope this doesn't detract talent from joining these things
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Post by therealcomicman117 on Jun 11, 2018 17:03:38 GMT
This was a nifty special feature. To anyone who bought The Last Jedi on digital (or has a digital code), through Movies Anywhere they can see an exclusive version with all sound but John Williams’ score muted. So last night I gave it a watch: Here’s my thoughts. Through all the highs and absolute lows of Star Wars, Williams has always been the one constant stamp of quality in every main entry (and the highlight of Solo). And his touch on the films surely aren’t missed or taken for granted on the part of the filmmakers. I remember seeing Jedi at the Opening Night fan event, and an entire five minute featurette was dedicated to his music. And if that wasn’t enough to show you just how vital he is to the soul of the films, then giving us this isolated listening experience cements it without question. First off, it’s certainly a testament to how strong the film is, and how top notch a visual storyteller Rian Johnson is, that even with dialogue muted the film is still perfectly comprehensible. That was a great belief of George Lucas as well, that Star Wars should be made that even in silence, the viewer should be able to understand them. So even if you don’t care for these new movies, both Abrams and Johnson have kept admirably to that level of quality, and the construction of sequences and the beautiful visual detail get even more breathing room to come to life. But now for John Williams. While I will admit that I preferred The Force Awakens, since Williams had he added benefit of a multitude of new themes for new characters and ideas (not to undersell The Last Jedi’s contributions), I think it’s sequel may actually be the stronger complete package. Star Wars, in my opinion, has the greatest musical continuity of any film franchise in history, and seeing him continuing to honor and expand on his melodies never ceases to bring me joy. That expansion is a vital component in which The Last Jedi thrives. This is technically precise Williams at his A game, weaving the traditional themes and their newer counterparts seamlessly together like an elaborate tapestry, with Williams’ reinventing himself in some ways without sacrificing the integrity of his voice, much like the new entries of Star Wars. So that’s the technicals, how about the content? This is where I have to say to those people who said “The Force Awakens doesn’t stand out” or “John Williams isn’t as good as he used to be”... sorry, but ya wrong. Watch this version, listen to Canto Bight and the fathier chase, the throne room, the battle of Crait and the end credits suite, and *then* tell me that. This is vintage majestic Williams in top form, and I love with each score of his, he crafts his own mini-narratives to offset the film’s, weaving from theme to theme and the characters aligned to them. And few series feel as truly epic in musical stylings as this one does, with Williams bringing tremendous excitement and playfulness to his writing and action material, with the Crait sequences being some of his sharpest writing in years. (And I can’t get enough of him sampling “Aquarella do Brazil”) But speaking of mini-narratives, this brings me to my next (and perhaps most controversial) point: The standard that all scores should strive to achieve. I’ve often gotten flak for my negative responses to the works of Cliff Martinez and Reznor/Ross, for finding them to be miserable solo experiences, leading to me getting blasted because a score’s primary and sole purpose to should be to serve the narrative, and that should be the mark of a truly great score. I don’t believe that for one second. Yes, scores should serve the narrative, and not all of them have to be traditionally orchestra based, but the truly great scores should be the ones who can stand apart on their own, as Star Wars has proven time and time again since 1977. It’s my belief that if you’re not taking the score’s individual achievement into account, that’s only doing half the job. All I want a score to do for me when I’m listening to it is the same for any film; I just want it to tell me a story. Go on an adventure, and tell me all about what they experienced on that adventure. Tell me about the places you visited, the emotions and complex thoughts you had out there, the people that you met. Give them accompanying motifs to let me know what part they played in your journey. Was the location exotic? Reflect the musical stylings of that place to transport me. I want the composer to bring a portrait to life, of everything they learned, so that even without visuals, I can feel what they felt through music. What story am I supposed to get, or what emotions am I supposed to feel from someone repeating the same three notes on a keyboard for four minutes? I’m being facetious, of course, but that’s my belief that a score *should* stand out, a score should be serviced by the film as much as film is serviced by it. And I think The Last Jedi solidifies that belief that both parties can have it their way. That music should be vital to the soul of a film rather than downplayed. And most certainly that John Willians is not down and out. If anything, his voice is only more confident, and health willing, I feel no worries for Episode IX, or his ability to satisfyingly cap off this new chapter. PS. Has anyone seen any other features like this one, with isolated score audio? Any you’d have loved to see? I've seen it. That feature is amazing, and well-appreciated. The score to TLJ is great. Anyone who says that John Williams doesn't have it "anymore", is crazy. He writes circles around just every modern composer, in terms of orchestrations, melody etc... Just watching that feature with the music reaffirmed it me, it's remarkable.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jul 6, 2018 3:13:32 GMT
Watched it. Fuck this series. I'm done with this shit.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jul 6, 2018 18:51:36 GMT
Alright, so my initial rage is over. I'm too fatigued by this series to really care about being concise or writing a second draft of my criticism here, I'm just gonna write and see what happens.
SPOILERS BELOW
In TFA (which I DESPISED), there was one simple problem that ruined the entire movie: It never stopped to let the characters talk, think, develop. Whenever they had a chance to discuss things or make a decision, the plot would FORCE them into doing what it wanted. Finn and Rey argue about whether to stay on Tattooine, but the decision is made for them when they're caught in a tractor beam. Finn leaves the Resistance, but his ship gets blown up before he can get on. Rey refuses to take the lightsaber but nah, nevermind, she has to wield it anyway.
In comparison to that year's Mad Max: Fury Road, the characters never had any agency; MM:FR is a series of decisions (Furiosa offers to take of Max's mask) which leads to other decisions (Max joins Furiosa instead of Joe), all tied into a thematic through line (Furiosa treats Max as a human instead of an object -- in turn, Max stops seeing Furiosa and her rig as an object to be used, but as people that are as scared as him). TFA makes decisions for its characters, and so none of their arcs are earned.
If that one problem had been fixed, most of my other issues would have fixed themselves (not to say that Hackjob Abrams wouldn't screw it up in some other way).
In TLJ, there are many more issues, but also more that it does right... or attempts to do right, anyway.
To be honest, 80% of my complaints revolve around the terrible use of humor and bad dialogue. I'll tackle the dialogue first because I don't have an answer for it; all I can say is "couldn't anyone hear how bad it sounded?" Someone somewhere along the line needed to tell Johnson to get another writer to touch up the dialogue so that people aren't saying melodramatic things like "You have too much of your father's heart in you." Or whatever that ridiculous bit was at the end with Rose telling Finn about love being stronger than hatred or something, I'm not going back to look it up.
The humor is an easier issue to resolve. Structurally, you should never exaggerate a moment to make the audience laugh at something (not in a dramatic story anyway). No cutaway reaction shots, no porgs, no pratfall silliness. Any humor should be in the form of dialogue. K-2SO from Rogue One is a perfect example of how to do this right:
"Congratulations. You are being rescued." "You're letting her keep it? Would you like to know the probability of her using it against you?" "There are a lot of explosions for two people blending in."
The comic relief has a personality (he shows jealousy and mistrust of Jyn from the moment she joins the crew), he isn't a series of gags, and the humor never feels out of place because it arises from a person we know. In TLJ, drunk aliens putting coins in BB-8 and porgs occasionally annoying Chewbacca (poor Chewie is relegated to 30 seconds of sitting down in this movie...) constitutes the "humor" and it isn't organic. It happens outside of our characters, and our characters react in goofy ways. The funniest moment of the original SW was Han telling 3PO that wookies are known to be bad losers, as Chewie sits reclines and grins at his opponent -- a moment of one character making a joke disguised as a threat (or the other way around, I'm not quite sure). Nothing like that is to be found here.
And then there's the General Hugs shit. This is a war zone and making light of it is a tonally disastrous move. This is a serious moment for both sides and it comes off as a joke. I'm okay with Poe joking at Hux's expense, but not in this context. (Side note: why the hell didn't the First Order have fighters mobilized before Poe taunted them? They just let this ship fly up and hail them and they don't have any fighters to shoot him if he betrays the truce?)
Don't get me started on Leia flying.
Fix those two problems, and you're more than halfway there. Both of them create tonal problems, by making us laugh unintentionally (bad dialogue) or making us groan when we shouldn't (both bad dialogue and out of place humor).
10% of my remaining problems lie in cleaning up the clutter. There are FOUR plot threads going on. Finn's character arc is laughable, going from deserter to hero because... hell if I know. Poe never faces any real consequences for his actions: faceless people die, but there is never a personal stake. Nobody he cares about dies because of his actions, and despite getting his whole squad killed and then leading a mutiny, everybody still likes him and he's just given a pat on the head and told to cool down. The entire Casino plot NEEDS to be done away with.
And then 10% is in the story failing to have the courage to follow through on its convictions. That Wisecrack video did a great job of expanding on this. The story is a deconstruction that backpedals instead of destroying the foundations it was built on. Deconstructions work because they tear apart the roots to make way for something better; this teases at destroying the foundations, but then reverts back to Black/White morality without ever directly addressing the question of things being Grey. Luke reverts back into a hero. Ren reverts back into a sniveling brat that doesn't like his daddy. And so, two of the most compelling ideas presented are then crushed back into the Black/White mold and I'm left wondering why.
Final note: Was Benicio del Toro doing a Daffy Duck impression? Seriously, I couldn't tell.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jul 10, 2018 11:43:30 GMT
Not the best video (in fact it is pretty amateurish work), but eh, someone else is seeing the main problem with the movie. Quit after 15:30, the rest is just a shitty advertisement.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Jul 18, 2018 0:08:57 GMT
Really, really long but probably the most comprehensive positive look at this film I've seen:
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Sept 14, 2018 23:04:25 GMT
I generally like Wisecrack, but goddamn can they go so far wide of the mark, particularly whenever they make a video about something recent (ex. their Zootopia video). The theme of the movie is not "let the past die" and at no point is the film truly setting that up as the theme of the movie, otherwise Johnson probably wouldn't have had Kylo Ren (y'know, the main antagonist of this current series) say it. He especially wouldn't have had Ren's entire character be rooted in the fact he can't constructively move on from the past, still harboring resentment towards his failed father figures (Luke, Han) while mocking Rey for seeking out these same false idols. Just because the idea of an anarchic Star Wars as Ren suggest makes Wisecrack's dicks tremor doesn't mean that's the theme of the movie. His extremist attitude is a mirror reflection of Luke who's similarly disappointed at his own failures as well as the past failures of the Jedi and feels the only way to end the cycle is to never try ever again to do the right thing. Where Ren wants to actively destroy the past, Luke wants to passively let it fade into the ether. And guess what? They're both wrong, because as the character who's been established throughout the series as being the walking, talking embodiment of theme said: "the greatest teacher, failure is." Rather than harbor a grudge over old shit or give up because of your own mistakes, failure is meant to be the catalyst for growth and that's the position the main characters ultimately finds themselves in. When Rey seeks out Kylo, she's doing so because she sees his potential for redemption, not because she agrees with him that they should destroy everything that came before them. That redemptive quality is central to Star Wars, it's why Vader could turn to the light in the last second, Han the scoundrel could become a hero, and here why Luke's memory lives on in legend. And Kylo Ren's inability to see it is why he's still the villain and why Wisecrack's thematic understanding of the film is fundamentally wrong. There are plenty of legitimate arguments to make for why one feels The Last Jedi failed in its ambition, but this video does not propose one of them.
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