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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 29, 2018 16:58:06 GMT
I've always regarded Penn as the modern day Rod Steiger, a talented, but incredibly inconsistent (and at times overbearing performer). Once regularly and incorrectly hailed by critics as the best (American) actor of his generation (though not so much anymore), Penn has had a pretty steep fall from grace since his last oscar nomination and win for Milk, over a decade ago. As both an actor and director, it's almost like he's been cursed. His performances in Gangster Squad and The Gunman were hammered, even by many of his most ardent defenders in the critical community. Anything else he's done has been minor. What looked like what could have been a comeback, the Mel Gibson co-starring The Professor And The Madman had been mired in a legal dispute between producer Gibson and the financiers over the funding and editing of the movie. It sounds like a complete mess. If the film ever sees the light of day, it looks likely to be DOA.
So Penn has turned to TV. Not the worst move in the world, considering the high quality of television productions today. And his showrunner, Beau Willimon, was responsible for House Of Cards. The show is called The First, and it's a space drama about the first human mission to Mars. It sounds like it may be Penn's first watchable project in years.
But is he washed up as an oscar contender? I can't see him ever winning again. But he has got a lot of friends in the business, and I can see him maybe getting himself into a supporting role that lands him another oscar nomination.
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Post by stephen on Jan 29, 2018 17:14:40 GMT
I don't want to ever rule him out, because those that love him really do love him and who knows what the future holds, but it does seem like the love affair for Penn has cooled remarkably in the last decade. His performances post-Milk were drubbed (although I count myself as a fan of his work in The Gunman; it's not nom-worthy but I found him remarkably committed and I might actually prefer it to any of his actual nominated performances), and his latest serving as director was reviled in a way very few films are at Cannes.
I was looking forward to seeing him spar with Gibson in The Professor and the Madman, but I never expected it to be an awards contender just because of how potentially radioactive a campaign for Gibson/Penn would be (in the wake of #metoo, can you see Penn avoiding backlash the way he managed to do in '03 and '08?). I am very keen to see his take on Andrew Jackson in American Lion (a role, funnily enough, I always mentally cast Gibson in), but Jackson is also going through a historical reevaluation and I can see that being unsavory to some, especially as I'm not so sure of the tack they're going to take with him. But it is HBO, so unless it's a critical disaster you can expect him to make a run at the Emmy.
On a separate note, scrud, I saw Roman J. Israel, Esq. this weekend. Check my post history for my thoughts.
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Post by wilcinema on Jan 29, 2018 17:17:06 GMT
There's still a lot of debate about whether his Oscars were deserved, so I doubt he'll be nominated again, let alone win. That said, I think his win for Milk has been excessively trashed. I found him mesmerizing.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 29, 2018 17:43:44 GMT
I don't want to ever rule him out, because those that love him really do love him and who knows what the future holds, but it does seem like the love affair for Penn has cooled remarkably in the last decade. His performances post- Milk were drubbed (although I count myself as a fan of his work in The Gunman; it's not nom-worthy but I found him remarkably committed and I might actually prefer it to any of his actual nominated performances), and his latest serving as director was reviled in a way very few films are at Cannes. I was looking forward to seeing him spar with Gibson in The Professor and the Madman, but I never expected it to be an awards contender just because of how potentially radioactive a campaign for Gibson/Penn would be (in the wake of #metoo, can you see Penn avoiding backlash the way he managed to do in '03 and '08?). I am very keen to see his take on Andrew Jackson in American Lion (a role, funnily enough, I always mentally cast Gibson in), but Jackson is also going through a historical reevaluation and I can see that being unsavory to some, especially as I'm not so sure of the tack they're going to take with him. But it is HBO, so unless it's a critical disaster you can expect him to make a run at the Emmy. On a separate note, scrud, I saw Roman J. Israel, Esq. this weekend. Check my post history for my thoughts. I don't think American Lion is ever going to happen (at least not with Penn in the role). The project was announced 3 years ago (which is a long time for an imminent production), and has since lost Philip Noyce as the director over "creative differences". It's basically in development hell. I can see another iteration of the project surfacing several years down the road with another actor in the role. Just more bad luck for Penn. The First sounds interesting, though Penn as an Astronaut doesn't immediately strike me as a slamdunk acting showcase for the Emmys. And the Emmys are pretty competitive these days. Read your thoughts on Roman J Israel, Esq. Sad you didn't rate the film too much, but glad you saw how incredible Washington's performance was. I just don't think Washington could have given that performance in a vaccum, and that's not credited enough. It was all in the script. First and formemost, Dan Gilroy is an incredible screenwriter. Personally, I think Roman J Israel , Esq is a film that demands revisiting (which is a very cliche thing for cinephiles to say, especially for directors they like. "Hey, if you didn't like it the first time, on the 5th watch you'll totally think it's a masterpiece".LOL!) |
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Post by stephen on Jan 29, 2018 17:50:49 GMT
I don't think American Lion is ever going to happen (at least not with Penn in the role). The project was announced 3 years ago (which is a long time for an imminent production), and has since lost Philip Noyce as the director over "creative differences". It's basically in development hell. I can see another iteration of the project surfacing several years down the road with another actor in the role. Just more bad luck for Penn. The First sounds interesting, though Penn as an Astronaut doesn't immediately strike me as a slamdunk acting showcase for the Emmys. And the Emmys are pretty competitive these days. Read your thoughts on Roman J Israel, Esq. Sad you didn't rate the film too much, but glad you saw how incredible Washington's performance was. I just don't think Washington could have given that performance in a vaccum, and that's not credited enough. It was all in the script. First and formemost, Dan Gilroy is an incredible screenwriter. Personally, I think Roman J Israel , Esq is a film that demands revisiting (which is a very cliche thing for cinephiles to say, especially for directors they like. "Hey, if you didn't like it the first time, on the 5th watch you'll totally think it's a masterpiece".LOL!) Aw, that explains why I haven't seen any more press on it. I'm a huge sucker for Presidential stories, and Jackson is such a fascinating figure that could sustain any amount of quality entertainment. I guess this project falling through means that I can continue to hope for Mad Mel starring in a Tarantino-directed "prez-ploitation" movie about Jackson's life (titled Old Hickory, of course). This is the first (heh) I'm hearing of The First, and already I can hear critiques along the lines of "We were willing to stage a billion-dollar rescue mission for Matt Damon, but I'm fine leaving Sean Penn up there." Yeah, Roman J. Israel, Esq. just really didn't do it for me overall. I think there was a great character at its center, but the film really didn't get under his skin the way it should've done, and the contrivances that erupted here and there just felt like mines that Washington had to navigate for two hours. You mention that Washington couldn't give that performance in a vacuum, which makes me wonder how much discussion on the character Denzel and Gilroy had prior to filming, and whether he had approached Washington with the idea before creating the script. |
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Jan 29, 2018 17:54:47 GMT
DEAD MAN WALKING aside , I never gave a damn about his acting . He shouldn't have won those 2 oscars. He's better at directing .
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 29, 2018 18:04:59 GMT
Penn to me is a very great actor who has lost his way - I think in some ways he's lost the passion for acting and for projects - after Milk his projects became few and iffy or not released - a bit of that is bad luck (although I sort of love him in This Must Be The Place - a very different role that he pulls off and that I can't think of any name actor being able to do it).
He can get nodded again, he's too great to be counted out......but I haven't heard him speak about acting for a long time.....his mind seems elsewhere (politics, personal life).
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 29, 2018 18:24:50 GMT
I think Penn got gassed up and believed his own press (the way he was always lecturing other actors on the sanctity of the "art" in the media was hilarious). Critics especially babied and mollycoddled him since the 80's, and allowed his inconsistent nature as an actor to slide for far too long. There reached a point where even they couldn't ignore how bad he could be, and how often.
He must wonder what the hell happened. All that talk about him being the modern Brando or whatever has dried up, and a lot of critics just sort of want to pretend they never engaged in that hyperbole regarding his abilities. I think he's just regarded as another talented actor today, not some generational talent as once claimed.
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Post by RiverleavesElmius on Jan 30, 2018 16:04:56 GMT
I think Penn got gassed up and believed his own press (the way he was always lecturing other actors on the sanctity of the "art" in the media was hilarious). Critics especially babied and mollycoddled him since the 80's, and allowed his inconsistent nature as an actor to slide for far too long. There reached a point where even they couldn't ignore how bad he could be, and how often. He must wonder what the hell happened. All that talk about him being the modern Brando or whatever has dried up, and a lot of critics just sort of want to pretend they never engaged in that hyperbole regarding his abilities. I think he's just regarded as another talented actor today, not some generational talent as once claimed. There's no hyperbole. He IS the greatest actor of his generation. The critics were right in the 1st place when it came to him. |
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 30, 2018 17:54:53 GMT
I think Penn got gassed up and believed his own press (the way he was always lecturing other actors on the sanctity of the "art" in the media was hilarious). Critics especially babied and mollycoddled him since the 80's, and allowed his inconsistent nature as an actor to slide for far too long. There reached a point where even they couldn't ignore how bad he could be, and how often. He must wonder what the hell happened. All that talk about him being the modern Brando or whatever has dried up, and a lot of critics just sort of want to pretend they never engaged in that hyperbole regarding his abilities. I think he's just regarded as another talented actor today, not some generational talent as once claimed. There's no hyperbole. He IS the greatest actor of his generation. The critics were right in the 1st place when it came to him. There was plenty of hyperbole, I think. The two leading contenders (by far) for the greatest actor of Penn's generation were Denzel Washington and Daniel Day-Lewis. Both have more talent and far more consistency than Penn. At no point in Penn's career could he ever be considered better than either of them of them, imho. Both of them were Oscar winners and multiple nominees before Penn even got his first Oscar nomination. Yet for a good 2 decades, critics insisted on pushing the narrative that he was the greatest. Penn helped this further this narrative by becoming close friends with all the greats (Brando, DeNiro etc) and getting their endorsement. He was their "heir". I also think it was more to do with his choices than his actual talent or superior craft (which don't get me wrong, could be impressive at times). DDL was actually a little bit underrated (relatively speaking) in the 90's compared to Penn, because he wasn't doing all these edgy indie movies that critics love so much. They didn't really start giving DDL all those accolades till the 2000's. And Washington's potential was continually underestimated from day 1, in my estimation because few critics thought an African-American leading man could reach the level he''s ultimately gotten to. They were mistaken. At best, they had him pegged as the heir to Sidney Poitier. Fine actor, credit to his race and all that jazz. But he'd never quite be top-tier of all time, because black actors don't get them same opportunities to be as great (at least the thought process probably went for many years). Surely he couldn't end up being be better than a white male American thespian who prided himself on following in the tradition of Brando or DeNiro? So Penn got his ego stroked for years by default. The fact that he could give 2-3 poor performances for every great one, somehow kept being ignored. Washington far exceeded the "new Poitier" tag he was initially boxed into, and has now basically become the male edition of Meryl Streep, capable of being recognised by his peers even for projects that bomb critically and commercially like Roman J Israel, Esq. He's not only a more respected film actor than Penn by his peers, but one of the more respected stage actors in America (which Penn is not, though he's done stage). Comparing them at this stage of their careers is almost embarrassing for Penn. Washington obliterates him in every department. Now those critics who was insisted he was the greatest of his era are curiously silent about Penn, who has spent the last decade doing little of note or giving critically reviled performances. Washington is now frequently being described as the greatest living American actor, while being in contention with DDL for being considered the greatest living actor, period. Penn is respected by his peers, but it's very obvious that at this point in time, he does not command the same respect amongst actors that Washington and Day-Lewis do. Penn's at a crossroads in his career, where he's found at he's not at the level he's always been told he was. He still has some fans. Actors still respect him. But he's reached his realistic, true level in the last decade, and that's nowhere near the top of the heap in his own generation. Sucks to find out you've basically been lied to your whole career, but thems the breaks |
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Post by stephen on Jan 30, 2018 18:10:41 GMT
There's no hyperbole. He IS the greatest actor of his generation. The critics were right in the 1st place when it came to him. There was plenty of hyperbole, I think. The two leading contenders (by far) for the greatest actor of Penn's generation were Denzel Washington and Daniel Day-Lewis. Both have more talent and far more consistency than Penn. At no point in Penn's career could he ever be considered better than either of them of them, imho. Both of them were Oscar winners and multiple nominees before Penn even got his first Oscar nomination. Yet for a good 2 decades, critics insisted on pushing the narrative that he was the greatest. Penn helped this further this narrative by becoming close friends with all the greats (Brando, DeNiro etc) and getting their endorsement. He was their "heir". I also think it was more to do with his choices than his actual talent or superior craft (which don't get me wrong, could be impressive at times). DDL was actually a little bit underrated (relatively speaking) in the 90's compared to Penn, because he wasn't doing all these edgy indie movies that critics love so much. They didn't really start giving DDL all those accolades till the 2000's. I agree with much of this, although I do think that judging someone's talent/status purely by accolades is a bit of an issue. I mean, I'd rate Gary Oldman as one of the premier talents of his age group, and he never got his due until fairly recently (although, it can be said he did a great deal to hamstring himself along the way). Sometimes, awards come at the right place at the right time for a performer, while eluding others of equal merit/talent because of campaigns, personal issues, or simply circumstances out of their own control (i.e. up against a beloved veteran, a narrative builds for another contender, etc.). I do agree that Penn cozied up to the big talents of the '70s and essentially anointed himself as their heir apparent, which speaks to the fact that so many actors of his generation idolized the raw intensity endemic of those great roles of that era, without realizing that there was more to giving a great performance than simply just being brooding and dark. I would argue that of the big names that came out of the 1980s, Penn is one of the least impressive talents . . . and it never fails to leave me stymied that he's the one from that bunch with two lead Oscars. Personally, I've always opted for Nicolas Cage as being the most inherently talented American actor to come out of that decade; the guy is enriched uranium in human form, which lends itself to being completely unpredictable unless in the hands of a skilled alchemist of a director, but I think Cage is capable of doing far more than the likes of Penn. What hurts Cage is simply his prolific nature and the fact that most of his films are dismissively bad (although rarely is Cage himself actually at fault, and when he fits in a project he knocks it out of the park). You are right that a lot of people pigeonholed Washington as Poitier's successor (which he was in the sense that he broke a lot of barriers), but they neglected to realize that Washington has a lot more going for him than Poitier ever did. It took a long time for me to appreciate Washington's earlier work, largely because I never felt like he got the great films that his contemporaries did. But that's because, as you say, he's been overlooked because of his race and other factors by studios/directors. I don't generally like Penn, but the guy is capable of great work ( 21 Grams would've made a worthy choice for Best Actor, but they went for its utter antithesis in method and quality that same year; he's also sublime in The Thin Red Line). I just prefer him when he's not going full-bore intense. He's kinda like Fassbender in that regard, because Fassbender suffers a lot of the same issues Penn does. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 30, 2018 18:19:35 GMT
Here where I think we part ways and maybe, you might be losing people:
The comment below, in quotes, is just a way to diss Penn, and isn't really true to me. Let's say he never does anything great again - why can't that be for something he's going through in life, he lost the juice, he done etc, not "he's reached his realistic true level". To me he's a greater film actor than Denzel but clearly he doesn't have the drive or ambition (as in Fences). I mean it could JUST be that. It's no different than Dustin Hoffman in his generation but it doesn't invalidate his great work, it just is. I'm not sure everything deserves that much analysis. Maybe I'm getting older and mellowing haha
"He still has some fans. Actors still respect him. But he's reached his realistic, true level in the last decade, and that's nowhere near the top of the heap in his own generation. Sucks to find out you've basically been lied to your whole career, but thems the breaks"
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Post by RiverleavesElmius on Jan 30, 2018 22:42:55 GMT
There's no hyperbole. He IS the greatest actor of his generation. The critics were right in the 1st place when it came to him. There was plenty of hyperbole, I think. The two leading contenders (by far) for the greatest actor of Penn's generation were Denzel Washington and Daniel Day-Lewis. Both have more talent and far more consistency than Penn. At no point in Penn's career could he ever be considered better than either of them of them, imho. Both of them were Oscar winners and multiple nominees before Penn even got his first Oscar nomination. Yet for a good 2 decades, critics insisted on pushing the narrative that he was the greatest. Penn helped this further this narrative by becoming close friends with all the greats (Brando, DeNiro etc) and getting their endorsement. He was their "heir". I also think it was more to do with his choices than his actual talent or superior craft (which don't get me wrong, could be impressive at times). DDL was actually a little bit underrated (relatively speaking) in the 90's compared to Penn, because he wasn't doing all these edgy indie movies that critics love so much. They didn't really start giving DDL all those accolades till the 2000's. And Washington's potential was continually underestimated from day 1, in my estimation because few critics thought an African-American leading man could reach the level he''s ultimately gotten to. They were mistaken. At best, they had him pegged as the heir to Sidney Poitier. Fine actor, credit to his race and all that jazz. But he'd never quite be top-tier of all time, because black actors don't get them same opportunities to be as great (at least the thought process probably went for many years). Surely he couldn't end up being be better than a white male American thespian who prided himself on following in the tradition of Brando or DeNiro? So Penn got his ego stroked for years by default. The fact that he could give 2-3 poor performances for every great one, somehow kept being ignored. Washington far exceeded the "new Poitier" tag he was initially boxed into, and has now basically become the male edition of Meryl Streep, capable of being recognised by his peers even for projects that bomb critically and commercially like Roman J Israel, Esq. He's not only a more respected film actor than Penn by his peers, but one of the more respected stage actors in America (which Penn is not, though he's done stage). Comparing them at this stage of their careers is almost embarrassing for Penn. Washington obliterates him in every department. Now those critics who was insisted he was the greatest of his era are curiously silent about Penn, who has spent the last decade doing little of note or giving critically reviled performances. Washington is now frequently being described as the greatest living American actor, while being in contention with DDL for being considered the greatest living actor, period. Penn is respected by his peers, but it's very obvious that at this point in time, he does not command the same respect amongst actors that Washington and Day-Lewis do. Penn's at a crossroads in his career, where he's found at he's not at the level he's always been told he was. He still has some fans. Actors still respect him. But he's reached his realistic, true level in the last decade, and that's nowhere near the top of the heap in his own generation. Sucks to find out you've basically been lied to your whole career, but thems the breaks None of what you say is true & very very veeeery few actors and/or people who know ANYTHING about acting would agree with you. Accolades don't mean jackshit, but funny you bring them up when Penn has just as many Oscars as Denzel and his two are actually BOTH for Lead. No amount of "people like him better" will change the fact that I think Penn has not only much more natural talent than Denzel, but EASILY more range. DDL? Well, that's a debate worth having, but saying Penn's "nowhere near the top of the heap in his own generation" pretty much disqualifies you from being taken seriously in any acting discussion. It's debatable if he's the greatest actor of his generation, though I say he is, it's a plain ol' FACT to say he's in his generation's Top 5. Even your idol would agree with that. |
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Post by countjohn on Jan 30, 2018 22:54:19 GMT
He's still a significant enough figure where I could envision him getting another great part. Oscar no. 3 is a tough nut to crack, though. You've either got to give a really, really great performance or just get a shit ton of nominations like Meryl Streep.
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Post by stephen on Jan 30, 2018 23:04:21 GMT
He's still a significant enough figure where I could envision him getting another great part. Oscar no. 3 is a tough nut to crack, though. You've either got to give a really, really great performance or just get a shit ton of nominations like Meryl Streep. It's going to be interesting to see who joins the "three-time winners club" next (I do think Washington's poised to join it sooner rather than later), but what I'm very curious about is who is going to join DDL in the "three-time Best Actor winners" club. Of working actors, Hoffman, Penn and Hanks are the only two-timers eligible at the moment (especially as Nicholson has retired) to challenge him, and I think that Hoffman's pretty much done with collecting awards at this point. |
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Post by FrancescoAbides on Jan 30, 2018 23:23:42 GMT
Should've won an Oscar for 21 Grams instead of Mystic River. I don't think he will get another Oscar though, and he is overrated, Denzel is way better than him. And I don't even need to mention Daniel Day-Lewis, even though I just did
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jan 31, 2018 0:04:51 GMT
I've always regarded Penn as the modern day Rod Steiger, a talented, but incredibly inconsistent (and at times overbearing performer). Once regularly and incorrectly hailed by critics as the best (American) actor of his generation (though not so much anymore), Penn has had a pretty steep fall from grace since his last oscar nomination and win for Milk, over a decade ago. As both an actor and director, it's almost like he's been cursed. His performances in Gangster Squad and The Gunman were hammered, even by many of his most ardent defenders in the critical community. Anything else he's done has been minor. What looked like what could have been a comeback, the Mel Gibson co-starring The Professor And The Madman had been mired in a legal dispute between producer Gibson and the financiers over the funding and editing of the movie. It sounds like a complete mess. If the film ever sees the light of day, it looks likely to be DOA. So Penn has turned to TV. Not the worst move in the world, considering the high quality of television productions today. And his showrunner, Beau Willimon, was responsible for House Of Cards. The show is called The First, and it's a space drama about the first human mission to Mars. It sounds like it may be Penn's first watchable project in years. But is he washed up as an oscar contender? I can't see him ever winning again. But he has got a lot of friends in the business, and I can see him maybe getting himself into a supporting role that lands him another oscar nomination. With the right role, I could easily see him back in the Oscar game. He may not be likable to the general public, but he is still very respected as an actor by his peers, he's capable of powerful performances (I think he should have won for Dead Man Walking, personally). And though he likes to have this kind of outsider image, he is good at making ties with people in the industry when he wants to. He'll call up people he doesn't know based purely on admiring their work or something and become friends with them. |
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Jan 31, 2018 0:04:57 GMT
There's still a lot of debate about whether his Oscars were deserved, so I doubt he'll be nominated again, let alone win. That said, I think his win for Milk has been excessively trashed. I found him mesmerizing. Debate amongst who? |
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 31, 2018 0:26:32 GMT
I've always regarded Penn as the modern day Rod Steiger, a talented, but incredibly inconsistent (and at times overbearing performer). Once regularly and incorrectly hailed by critics as the best (American) actor of his generation (though not so much anymore), Penn has had a pretty steep fall from grace since his last oscar nomination and win for Milk, over a decade ago. As both an actor and director, it's almost like he's been cursed. His performances in Gangster Squad and The Gunman were hammered, even by many of his most ardent defenders in the critical community. Anything else he's done has been minor. What looked like what could have been a comeback, the Mel Gibson co-starring The Professor And The Madman had been mired in a legal dispute between producer Gibson and the financiers over the funding and editing of the movie. It sounds like a complete mess. If the film ever sees the light of day, it looks likely to be DOA. So Penn has turned to TV. Not the worst move in the world, considering the high quality of television productions today. And his showrunner, Beau Willimon, was responsible for House Of Cards. The show is called The First, and it's a space drama about the first human mission to Mars. It sounds like it may be Penn's first watchable project in years. But is he washed up as an oscar contender? I can't see him ever winning again. But he has got a lot of friends in the business, and I can see him maybe getting himself into a supporting role that lands him another oscar nomination. With the right role, I could easily see him back in the Oscar game. He may not be likable to the general public, but he is still very respected as an actor by his peers, he's capable of powerful performances (I think he should have won for Dead Man Walking, personally). And though he likes to have this kind of outsider image, he is good at making ties with people in the industry when he wants to. He'll call up people he doesn't know based purely on admiring their work or something and become friends with them. Agreed. Sometimes I think Penn is a bigger industry "networker" than even George Clooney. The "outsider" image he tried to cultivate is far from actual reality. Penn seems to know almost every major actor out there, even the ones he's never worked with. I admire Washington and DDL in the sense that they don't really try to curry favor with their peers by encouraging personal ties. They do the work and they go home. Actors love them anyway. |
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jan 31, 2018 0:34:55 GMT
With the right role, I could easily see him back in the Oscar game. He may not be likable to the general public, but he is still very respected as an actor by his peers, he's capable of powerful performances (I think he should have won for Dead Man Walking, personally). And though he likes to have this kind of outsider image, he is good at making ties with people in the industry when he wants to. He'll call up people he doesn't know based purely on admiring their work or something and become friends with them. Agreed. Sometimes I think Penn is a bigger industry "networker" than even George Clooney. The "outsider" image he tried to cultivate is far from actual reality. Penn seems to know almost every major actor out there, even the ones he's never worked with. I admire Washington and DDL in the sense that they don't really try to curry favor with their peers by encouraging personal ties. They do the work and they go home. Actors love them anyway. Denzel Washington seems to give no fucks about ties or networking.  He's like "I'm not tapdancing for these people. Just see me in the movie." |
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 31, 2018 0:51:20 GMT
Agreed. Sometimes I think Penn is a bigger industry "networker" than even George Clooney. The "outsider" image he tried to cultivate is far from actual reality. Penn seems to know almost every major actor out there, even the ones he's never worked with. I admire Washington and DDL in the sense that they don't really try to curry favor with their peers by encouraging personal ties. They do the work and they go home. Actors love them anyway. Denzel Washington seems to give no fucks about ties or networking. He's like "I'm not tapdancing for these people. Just see me in the movie." It's such a Boss attitude. He's so anti-social, it's almost incredible that he gets away with it (without cultivating an almost mystical legend around his anti-socialness like Day-Lewis). With Day-Lewis it's like, "I'm disappearing for my art, fellow actors. This is really deep stuff, that you can respect". Wth Washington it's like, "I don't wanna know you guys. I just wanna go home and watch ESPN or a Lakers game. This ain't about the art. Just watch the movie, and if you nominate me, I'll show up". |
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 31, 2018 1:04:06 GMT
There was plenty of hyperbole, I think. The two leading contenders (by far) for the greatest actor of Penn's generation were Denzel Washington and Daniel Day-Lewis. Both have more talent and far more consistency than Penn. At no point in Penn's career could he ever be considered better than either of them of them, imho. Both of them were Oscar winners and multiple nominees before Penn even got his first Oscar nomination. Yet for a good 2 decades, critics insisted on pushing the narrative that he was the greatest. Penn helped this further this narrative by becoming close friends with all the greats (Brando, DeNiro etc) and getting their endorsement. He was their "heir". I also think it was more to do with his choices than his actual talent or superior craft (which don't get me wrong, could be impressive at times). DDL was actually a little bit underrated (relatively speaking) in the 90's compared to Penn, because he wasn't doing all these edgy indie movies that critics love so much. They didn't really start giving DDL all those accolades till the 2000's. And Washington's potential was continually underestimated from day 1, in my estimation because few critics thought an African-American leading man could reach the level he''s ultimately gotten to. They were mistaken. At best, they had him pegged as the heir to Sidney Poitier. Fine actor, credit to his race and all that jazz. But he'd never quite be top-tier of all time, because black actors don't get them same opportunities to be as great (at least the thought process probably went for many years). Surely he couldn't end up being be better than a white male American thespian who prided himself on following in the tradition of Brando or DeNiro? So Penn got his ego stroked for years by default. The fact that he could give 2-3 poor performances for every great one, somehow kept being ignored. Washington far exceeded the "new Poitier" tag he was initially boxed into, and has now basically become the male edition of Meryl Streep, capable of being recognised by his peers even for projects that bomb critically and commercially like Roman J Israel, Esq. He's not only a more respected film actor than Penn by his peers, but one of the more respected stage actors in America (which Penn is not, though he's done stage). Comparing them at this stage of their careers is almost embarrassing for Penn. Washington obliterates him in every department. Now those critics who was insisted he was the greatest of his era are curiously silent about Penn, who has spent the last decade doing little of note or giving critically reviled performances. Washington is now frequently being described as the greatest living American actor, while being in contention with DDL for being considered the greatest living actor, period. Penn is respected by his peers, but it's very obvious that at this point in time, he does not command the same respect amongst actors that Washington and Day-Lewis do. Penn's at a crossroads in his career, where he's found at he's not at the level he's always been told he was. He still has some fans. Actors still respect him. But he's reached his realistic, true level in the last decade, and that's nowhere near the top of the heap in his own generation. Sucks to find out you've basically been lied to your whole career, but thems the breaks None of what you say is true & very very veeeery few actors and/or people who know ANYTHING about acting would agree with you. Accolades don't mean jackshit, but funny you bring them up when Penn has just as many Oscars as Denzel and his two are actually BOTH for Lead. No amount of "people like him better" will change the fact that I think Penn has not only much more natural talent than Denzel, but EASILY more range. DDL? Well, that's a debate worth having, but saying Penn's "nowhere near the top of the heap in his own generation" pretty much disqualifies you from being taken seriously in any acting discussion. It's debatable if he's the greatest actor of his generation, though I say he is, it's a plain ol' FACT to say he's in his generation's Top 5. Even your idol would agree with that. Accolades mean plenty when they come from your peers. Washington keeps getting Oscar nominations from the ACTING branch of the Academy, not the academy as a whole. When the ACTING branch keep nominating you as much as they do Washington, it's a sign of ultimate reverence (especially in films the Academy does not care for much, outside of his performance). That's not about "like". It's about respect for the craftsmanship. If it was about "like", Tom Hanks would be nominated every single year, because everyone likes him. Washington's nomination tally is now equal to Marlon Brando, and I think most sensible observers believe he's the one living actor most capable of matching or breaking Jack Nicholson's male Oscar nomination record of 12. Actors like Sean Penn a lot. They don't like him that much. As for range...Washington just got Oscar nominated for playing a socially awkward nerd with Autism in Roman J Israel, Esq (basically, I AM SAM with a more subtelty, and not going "full retard", to quote Tropic Thunder). The type of "small man" on the margins of society that Penn actually specialised in more. And Washington is now even doing Penn's type of bread and butter roles to huge acclaim. Washington is a Shakesparian actor (no evidence that Penn can), he can do romantic comedy, he's a much more convincing action hero than Penn (see The Gunman. Or better yet, don't). Not sure the range argument has much merit at all, but everyone has an opinion I guess. As for actors, I wholly disagree. I've seen plenty of mutual co-stars express a deeper admiration for Washington (Josh Brolin, Forrest Whitaker etc). Plenty of actors have called Washington the best actor in the world or best of his generation. Even the hot young actor that everyone is raving about, Timothee Chalamet singled out Washington for special praise when asked about all these legendary actors he was nominated up against during the season ( Oldman, DDL, Hanks etc). Chalamet said he's seen Washington on stage, and considers him to have given the best live performaces he's ever seen (Chalamet is a theatre actor and stage geek): "That warm reception also includes a leading actor Golden Globe nomination for Chalamet, placing him alongside venerable greats Tom Hanks, Daniel Day-Lewis, Denzel Washington, and Gary Oldman. "That's totally surreal because every one of those actors on that list I've studied at some point beyond enjoying their films," he says. "Their work has all inspired me in some capacity — certainly Denzel has been in plays that I've seen on Broadway that have wowed me more than any other live performance" thefix.nine.com.au/2017/12/24/13/09/timothee-chalamet-call-me-by-your-name-interviewCan Penn be considered Top 5 of his generation? Sure, why not. On the lower end, I guess. But top of the heap (to me anyway) is more like top 2, and I don't think he's in that conversation. Sorry. |
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Post by therealcomicman117 on Feb 1, 2018 20:54:46 GMT
I kinda feel that Penn's time with the Oscars is probably done, but you can never write him off. I could see him getting a surprise sixth nomination down the line for more of a "comeback acclaimed" performance of sorts, that surprises everyone.
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Post by pacinoyes on Mar 25, 2018 14:33:41 GMT
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Post by pupdurcs on Mar 25, 2018 14:47:52 GMT
This is nonsense to me. Penn has said the same thing at least 3 or 4 times over the course of his career, usually when his career is in a slump (which happens regularly when you are as inconsistent a performer as he is). It'd actually be a little less cynical if he ever said it when things were going well. He's not an idiot. He knows full well none of his performances in the last decade have really worked, and that his stock is at an all-time low, and he's not a name much brought up in greatest living actor discussions. It's a time honored strategy called "saving face". Watching Denzel (his main American rival) ascend to male Meryl Streep status, while he can't even get his Mel Gibson movie released probably hasn't helped his disposition. I'm sure he's out of love with acting. I'd be a bit as well if critics hammered several of my post-Oscar performances, my main rival had streaked lightyears ahead of me, and my latest effort might not even see the light of day. It's the same tired bullshit double standard I pointed out in the Bardem thread regarding females/male actors. Dudes can give a bunch of shitty or substandard performances for a decade and claim they no longer love the craft like they used to, and it's supposed to be some laudable sign of artistic ennui. No , it just means you are not that good anymore and people have cottoned on to it. A woman hasn't got that luxury. She starts sucking, there's no excuses. Get ready to start playing a Mom on a CW show. Penn sounds like a Brat, but he always has. Maybe Nic Cage was "out of love" with acting when he started doing action movies, but it didn't stop Penn from being a judgemental prick and calling him out, and saying he no longer deserves to be rated that highly as an actor. Well right back atcha Sean! karma's a bitch. The guy loves attention in whatever form he can get it. If he was getting positive attention with his acting or films, he'd still be "in love with it". No one is exactly chomping at the bit to see the next Sean Penn performance (or directed movie after The Last Face). So he'll put out a novel to keep him in the headlines and on the interview circuit. Or do that embarrassing thing where he appeared on Jimmy Kimmel with Bono and and Chris Martin acting like he was a bartender out of Casablanca. Daniel Day Lewis and Denzel would never. Because they are far better actors. He's not kept up with his superiors, he knows it and needs to rationalise it. That's ego for you. Penn, to bluntly put it, has always been an overrated attention whore. I'm glad he's no longer being indulged. And there's no way on earth he'll be remembered as the best actor of his generation, or anything close to it. Thank god that delusion has seen it's day. As the Rod Steiger of his generation, he overachieved somewhat anyway. Having said all that, Penn is a Hollywood networker par excellence. He'll do his best to get himself in a position nominated for an oscar again, so he can start lecturing his peers about the "craft" again. |
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He's like "I'm not tapdancing for these people. Just see me in the movie."
