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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 17:40:29 GMT
The “Mt. Rushmore” of American male actors post-Golden Age - Robert De Niro, Dustin Hoffman, Jack Nicholson, and Al Pacino.
Who would be their female equivalents?
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Post by stephen on Oct 2, 2022 17:43:45 GMT
Streep, Spacek, Rowlands, Fonda. Burstyn and Weaver would probably wind up in contention as well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 17:50:47 GMT
Streep, Spacek, Rowlands, Fonda. Burstyn and Weaver would probably wind up in contention as well. Close and Lange as well, yes? |
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Oct 2, 2022 17:54:58 GMT
Streep, Streisand, K. Hepburn, Pfeiffer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 17:56:21 GMT
I’m going with Glenn Close, Jane Fonda, Jessica Lange, and Meryl Streep.
I think Rowlands and Burstyn are probably too “niche”, Weaver too heavily associated with just one genre, and I’m sure many will disagree, but I don’t think Spacek was ever quite as A-List famous as Close and Lange… She is Carrie, sure, but I can’t imagine her ever getting top billing over a male co-star the way those did, for instance.
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Post by stephen on Oct 2, 2022 17:59:01 GMT
Streep, Spacek, Rowlands, Fonda. Burstyn and Weaver would probably wind up in contention as well. Close and Lange as well, yes? It's weird. I don't think of Close as a contemporary of De Niro/Pacino/Nicholson/Hoffman because she came to prominence in the 1980s, but Streep (and Weaver by extension) barely made it into the '70s as it is, so you would think she would be. Lange is the same way. I guess we just don't think of actresses in the same monolithic breath as the Big Four (even if I think it should really be The Big Six, with Duvall and Hackman). I also would think Diane Keaton would also be in with a shout. She owned the 1970s as thoroughly as any of these other women, and enjoyed quite a successful post-Oscar career. We just don't usually think of her in such grand terms, when we probably ought to. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 18:01:54 GMT
stephen - True, true - it’s difficult to narrow down! What would we do with Anne Bancroft and Shirley MacLaine, for instance? For me, they inhabit that period of time between the Golden Age and the New Wave - Paul Newman and Jack Lemmon, too.
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Post by stephen on Oct 2, 2022 18:06:10 GMT
stephen - True, true - it’s difficult to narrow down! What would we do with Anne Bancroft and Shirley MacLaine, for instance? For me, they inhabit that period of time between the Golden Age and the New Wave - Paul Newman and Jack Lemmon, too. It depends on where you consider the points of demarcation to be. Personally, I would consider MacLaine to be a Golden Age actress (one of the last few left) because she's been around since the 1950s (and was getting Oscar nominations in that era). But I wouldn't call her or Bancroft to be contemporaries of the '70s gang; they had already established themselves well before it. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 18:08:40 GMT
stephen - True, true - it’s difficult to narrow down! What would we do with Anne Bancroft and Shirley MacLaine, for instance? For me, they inhabit that period of time between the Golden Age and the New Wave - Paul Newman and Jack Lemmon, too. It depends on where you consider the points of demarcation to be. Personally, I would consider MacLaine to be a Golden Age actress (one of the last few left) because she's been around since the 1950s (and was getting Oscar nominations in that era). But I wouldn't call her or Bancroft to be contemporaries of the '70s gang; they had already established themselves well before it. I go by the AFI’s qualifications for their “Greatest Stars” of the Golden Age lists - one would have had to have his or her film debut in or before 1950, or his or her death occurred before the publication of the lists. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Oct 2, 2022 18:33:25 GMT
One of the problems with this is all 4 of the "big 4" have deep filmographies of classics which is a luxury that doesn't extend as much to women - or didn't then at least.....
Also the men are weird because of the unusual weight they carry - and which Hoffman mostly pissed away tbh - I totally get when people put Hackman ahead of Hoffman "as an actor" though I don't myself and I agree with stephen that it is somewhat rather a "Big 6" (along with Duvall - I rank Hackman / Duvall just a tier below).
On the other hand "the" big 4 are also "my" big 4 - at least in Hoffman's 67-88 run....so with that in mind these and who they are most like:
Streep (De Niro), Fonda (Nicholson), Rowlands (Pacino) and ........Lange (Hoffman) although Close practically is almost exactly a female Pacino in all mediums ....Glenn Close, Pacino and Anthony Hopkins you can have these long, great discussions about in terms of their simliarities, achievements, failures and these huge (and odd) missed opportunities in careers tbh.....
Lange is closest to Hoffman in that she was a big movie star who did TV in a classic theater role in her peak ...... retained her earlier aura as she drifted to character roles......so I give her a slight edge there as being "like" one of them ....
Spacek, Burstyn and Close are superb actresses that I don't think of as occupying quite the same celebrity orbit as The Four Horsemen .....Rowlands either tbh but overlaps in type of material more to me so she makes "more" sense I guess....
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Post by urbanpatrician on Oct 2, 2022 19:05:10 GMT
Only Streep and Kidman can remotely claim this title.
Bergman and Hepburn are old. Lots of people don't like old movies so they're automatically a degree lower these days.
Rowlands is the same era, but she's not well known enough. Fonda is a maybe, but there's too big of a gap between the acclaim of Streep and her, and some of her films just haven't stood or are not seen enough. I don't think any commoners are interested in even Fonda's most acclaimed stuff like They Shoot Horses.
Blanchett might count, as more of a Kidman equivalent but her name is just not brought up enough. It's usually brought up only when we're discussing great actors, rarely when we're discussing iconography or common film talk.
Spacek is the same as Lange. Both were huge in a previous decade but name started to fade into the 90s and 00s. Not that they became obscure or irrelevant, just relegated a bit when the 90s rolled out a huge spree of other female stars.
Leigh is known only for Gone With the Wind and A Streetcar Named Desire. Taylor is known mostly as a celebrity. Monroe is iconography. McDormand might get there, but I don't think that many people would choose her over Hoffman or DePac so it's not the same level of acclaim.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 19:30:29 GMT
The actresses in question would have to be post-Golden Age and American to qualify, guys…
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 2, 2022 20:17:59 GMT
The “Mt. Rushmore” of American male actors post-Golden Age - Robert De Niro, Dustin Hoffman, Jack Nicholson, and Al Pacino. Who would be their female equivalents? The Denzel Washington erasure!!!  Hoffman is an important American actor, but I don't think he gets into a hypothetical post Golden Age Mt. Rushmore over Washington, who is in the realm of Brando and Olivier in terms of modern esteem. If you are keeping it strictly to the 70's era of actors, then sure, Hoffman is still a solid pick! But that wasn't made clear in the original post, which is why I'm arguing it  In fact, CBS did a poll of their audience 9 years back and they voted Pacino, DeNiro, Nicholson and Washington as the Mount Rushmore of American actors. www.cbsnews.com/detroit/news/stoney-and-bills-mt-rushmore-of-actors/In those 9 years, Washington has recieved 3 more Best Actor Oscar nominations, become only the 2nd American man in history to be Oscar nominated for Shakespearan performance (after Marlon Brando) and been named the Greatest Actor Of The 21st Century by the New York Times and often referred to by peers, media and audiences as "the GOAT ". If Hoffman couldn't get an audience vote over Washington in 2013, he certainly would stand even less chance today with Washington's standing, which is equal (if not superior) to most of the 70's cohort today. Hoffman's standing has fallen somewhat to the point where it could be argued that Gene Hackman is held in higher regard today from the 70's group of great American actors. I do feel like Hackman is held in more reverence today than Hoffman. Maybe because Hoffman's career felt quite lacklustre after his second Oscar win for Rain Man in 1989 and he never really got his mojo back. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 21:17:46 GMT
Streep (De Niro), Fonda (Nicholson), Close (Pacino) and ........Lange (Hoffman) I fixed it for you. You know that I love Rowlands, but she’s never been as famous as these actors or asked to prove her versatility across genres the way these other actors have. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 21:22:54 GMT
pupdurcs - Honestly I probably prefer Washington to these other actors, but as he is quite a bit younger, I do think of him as following in their footsteps rather than beside them… Just my opinion, though. Honestly, I’ve always thought of Washington as being the true heir to Brando, in terms of talent and physical beauty. Who would you pick for the female version (keeping in mind that Kidman is Australian)?
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Post by pacinoyes on Oct 2, 2022 21:33:22 GMT
Streep (De Niro), Fonda (Nicholson), Close (Pacino) and ........Lange (Hoffman) I fixed it for you. You know that I love Rowlands, but she’s never been as famous as these actors or asked to prove her versatility across genres the way these other actors have. One of the other drawbacks against Rowlands for this list is she only has 5 feature film credits in the 70s (3 Cassavetes) which makes it hard to rank her with any of the males - she's one of those "Great Actor / Actress Outlier" things actually..... Another thing that makes this hard is the men all have an Oscar (or, um 3) and you could make an argument that many times the Oscars snubbed American actresses in some ways who were "like the Big 4" entirely - all Oscar-less across different eras - Pfeiffer, Rowlands, Close, Michelle Williams (so far) .........grrr |
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Post by ibbi on Oct 2, 2022 21:38:30 GMT
DENEUVE, ADJANI, ARDANT, AND HUPPERT!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 21:40:53 GMT
DENEUVE, ADJANI, BINOCHE, AND HUPPERT! Fixed it for you… |
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Post by ibbi on Oct 2, 2022 21:51:28 GMT
DENEUVE, ADJANI, BINOCHE, AND HUPPERT! Fixed it for you… I will use your Denzel disqualifying logic on that one  though Ardant was a fairly late breakthrough herself. Maybe Nathalie Baye to round out the musketeers. |
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Post by stephen on Oct 2, 2022 21:54:15 GMT
I will use your Denzel disqualifying logic on that one though Ardant was a fairly late breakthrough herself. Maybe Nathalie Baye to round out the musketeers. Stephane Audran, fool! |
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Post by cranly on Oct 3, 2022 1:26:20 GMT
Rowlands, Streep, Spacek, and Tuesday Weld.
I know Weld isn't usually held up on that same level, but seriously, take a close look at her run from 68-78. Pretty Poison, I Walk the Line, A Safe Place, Play It As It Lays, Looking for Mr. Goodbar, Who'll Stop the Rain. If you factor in her 70s tv work, especially (as Zelda Fitzgerald) in F. Scott Fitzgerald in Hollywood, and A Question of Guilt, then I think it becomes hard to rank any US actress above her for this period.
Adjacent to those 4, I'd place Burstyn, and also Woodward. Woodward launched her film career earlier than the others, but she was born the same year as Rowlands and Hackman (1930). And she's strong all through the 70s and 80s if you again include her tv work (as the recent Ethan Hawke documentary on Newman and Woodward rightly emphasizes).
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 3, 2022 2:09:14 GMT
pupdurcs - Honestly I probably prefer Washington to these other actors, but as he is quite a bit younger, I do think of him as following in their footsteps rather than beside them… Just my opinion, though. Honestly, I’ve always thought of Washington as being the true heir to Brando, in terms of talent and physical beauty. Who would you pick for the female version (keeping in mind that Kidman is Australian)? Hard to look past Streep.Women have tended to have shorter careers, and not been able to maintain the kind of iconic status of their male counterparts, so it's a bit trickier. There have been lots of great American actresses post Golden Age, but how many of them are truly nailed on Mt Rushmore candidates? The biggest or most iconic female stars ( Julia Roberts, Sandra Bullock etc) don't carry the same cache as actors, even if they are Oscar winners. Some of the great modern American actresses don't feel iconic enough to demand Mt Rushmore status (ie Julianne Moore). The prime careers of people like Sissy Spacek and Jane Fonda feel too short, especially when placed side by side with someone like Streep. I think I'd probably go Sigourney Weaver, who is iconic enough, respected enough as a pure thespian and had a longer career compared to many of her peer group (she's heavily associated with action and sci-fi, but she did Oscar level work across all genres.... Gorillas In The Mist, Working Girl etc. It'd be like discounting Pacino and DeNiro for being too associated with Gangster/Crime films). Glenn Close as well. I'm quite surprised no one has mentioned her, but on the strength of her respect level and iconic status, Jodie Foster is probably an easy pick. (as a dual Australian/American citizen since birth, technically Kidman could be counted in this conversation, but I won't insert her on a technicality, especially since she's always identified as an Australian, despite also being an American citizen since birth (born in Hawaii 😉) |
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 3, 2022 2:31:47 GMT
No one mentioned Faye Dunaway, who probably had the most iconic run of films of any American actress from 1967 to 1979 (Bonnie And Clyde, The Thomas Crown Affair, Little Big Man, The Three Musketeers, Chinatown, Three Days Of The Condors, Network, Eyes Of Laura Mars, The Champ) and was considered a great, Oscar winning actress. But because her career descended into complete irrelevance in the early 80's, she's now seen as an afterthought.
But I'd say in the 70's in terms of starpower, iconic status and respect, Dunaway would have been one of the clear female equivalents to DeNiro, Pacino, Nicholson etc). Yet today she is an afterthought, despite having arguably the strongest peak filmography of any American actress from that late 60's to 70's period. Dunaway is a perfect example of how hard it is for women to reach a similar status.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2022 16:02:19 GMT
pupdurcs - Funnily enough, Cate Blanchett can also claim American citizenship. Her father was from Texas. They were the only family that she knew growing up who celebrated Thanksgiving.
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Post by hugobolso on Oct 3, 2022 17:38:55 GMT
Robert De Niro, Dustin Hoffman, Jack Nicholson, and Al Pacino.
Nobody.-
Trying to be indulgent
Maybe Babs for Dustin Hoffman. And Liza Minelli for Bob De Niro, Faye for big Jack.-
Sorry but Al Pacino hasn't an equivalent woman. Maybe Streep, but she isn't italoamerican, maybe Liv Ullman for being foreign.-
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though Ardant was a fairly late breakthrough herself. Maybe Nathalie Baye to round out the musketeers.
