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Post by Brother Fease on Sept 17, 2022 1:52:05 GMT
Not gonna lie - I started this thread thinking it would get into a nuanced debate about how America - not just us - sees what DeSantis and Abbott did........ and what our immigration policy should be in general......but alas, mostly no..... I don't know pacinoyes, then maybe you should've started a thread with a more open-ended title like: "thoughts on America's immigration policy?" (or "immigration crisis" if you wanted something spicier) but highlighting DeSantis and Abbott in the title just invites a dogpile. If this were 2018 and you wanted to open up a discussion about immigration policy, you wouldn't title your thread "Trump puts kids in cages" now would you! The problem at the border has little to do with Trump or Biden here. It has everything to do with the poverty and political corruption happening in Central America countries. Abbott and DeSantis were not trying to address those concerns, but to play politics with poor people and "divide and conquer". It was a stunt designed to rile up the regressive crowd (Fox News and OAN folks).
pacinoeyes - I don't think you're going to get serious political discourse with Abbott and DeSantis. These people are simply playing to emotion and fears rather than something of substance. As I mentioned before, these governors don't want an actual debate. They have no basis for their protest. In other words, what exactly do they want done? You cannot logically solve the problem without addressing why these people are fleeing and asking for asylum, refuge or desire migrant status.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Sept 17, 2022 4:21:57 GMT
I don't think you're going to get serious political discourse with Abbott and DeSantis. These people are simply playing to emotion and fears rather than something of substance. As I mentioned before, these governors don't want an actual debate. They have no basis for their protest. In other words, what exactly do they want done? You cannot logically solve the problem without addressing why these people are fleeing and asking for asylum, refuge or desire migrant status. I'm not an expert on American laws, but I guess governors ' duty is to take care and solve the issues of the citizens of their respective states. The reason why foreigners want to immigrate to the US is something that only the central government can deal with and has the right and possibility to do something about. Foreign politics isn't a prerogative of state governors.
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Post by Joaquim on Sept 17, 2022 13:15:51 GMT
Can’t argue with that tbh gotta concede defeat on this matter now
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Post by countjohn on Sept 17, 2022 17:48:41 GMT
I am pro immigration but this works as a political stunt because the Dems can't complain about it or they'll prove DeSantis's point. If you're going to say "OMG WE LOVE IMMIGRANTS" you can't object if they all get dropped off where you live. Like, I'm from Florida and grew up around Hispanics and Haitians, I live in New York where you walk down certain streets and here more Hindi or Bengali than English, doesn't bother me a bit. Not the case for a lot of these people in lily white parts of New England despite how much they love talking a good game on this stuff. It's the same with them and black people too. It took 31 posts for someone to bring up the holocaust comparisons? I’m a bit disappointed in you guys But yea I didn’t know they had death camps in Martha’s Vineyard. If the death camps were anything like Martha’s Vineyard you can sign my Portuguese-Venezuelan half breed ass up Did you even watch the video? You’re missing the point Burns was making… If that's not the point he was making he needed to pick a different historical event. I don't want to hear the word Holocaust unless someone's getting gassed.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 17, 2022 18:22:32 GMT
I am pro immigration but this works as a political stunt because the Dems can't complain about it or they'll prove DeSantis's point. If you're going to say "OMG WE LOVE IMMIGRANTS" you can't object if they all get dropped off where you live. Like, I'm from Florida and grew up around Hispanics and Haitians, I live in New York where you walk down certain streets and here more Hindi or Bengali than English, doesn't bother me a bit. Not the case for a lot of these people in lily white parts of New England despite how much they love talking a good game on this stuff. It's the same with them and black people too. that's not why people are complaining. Did DeSantis call Mass. authorities? Did he coordinate any efforts at all for the wellbeing of these migrants? No. He had his people lie to them about where they were going to coax them into boarding a plane so he could drop them off like trash at a liberal enclave for a political stunt. No liberals are complaining about having to take care of these people, the people of MV mobilized to do that for free until official accommodations could be set up elsewhere. That wasn't their job and they didn't have to do it. Taxpayers are paying for dehumanizing political stunts and not the fucking MV highschoolers who had to act as translators to stem the confusion DeSantis caused. He literally could've just fucking called. Not a hard thing to do. He didn't have to have his people lie to these migrants.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Sept 17, 2022 18:38:48 GMT
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 17, 2022 19:03:48 GMT
yeah they're a suburb. It's the government's job to take care of these migrants, not untrained civilians.
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Post by quetee on Sept 17, 2022 19:15:28 GMT
yeah they're a suburb. It's the government's job to take care of these migrants, not untrained civilians. more details are dropping and it appears lawyers are getting involved now. Rules were not followed.
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Post by Joaquim on Sept 17, 2022 19:17:23 GMT
Was bringing in the national guard for 50 people really necessary?
It’s really easy to play the “we love immigrants” game when you’re as far away from the southern border as you can be at your basically all white vacation island on the opposite end of the country and never actually have to deal with them. You got your photo op with the illegals, posted the pics on social media for clout and then promptly sicced the national guard on them the next day. Incredible that this little stunt has gotten magnitudes more media coverage than the actual crisis happening at the border where we’re seeing small towns get overrun with thousands of illegals each day. Catholic charities are doing the heavy lifting in the south dealing with all these people but the supposedly rich snobs at Martha’s Vineyard needed to set up a gofundme to care for 50 people? The gofundme raised, what, 45k? That’s a drop in the bucket for the average resident of Martha’s Vineyard
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Post by Brother Fease on Sept 18, 2022 14:03:03 GMT
I'm not an expert on American laws, but I guess governors ' duty is to take care and solve the issues of the citizens of their respective states. The reason why foreigners want to immigrate to the US is something that only the central government can deal with and has the right and possibility to do something about. Foreign politics isn't a prerogative of state governors. This viewpoint seems contrary to the facts on the ground. These governors are sending these immigrants to Washington D.C and Mass as a manner of political protest against the current immigration policies. So it is all about national policies and wanting to change how the U.S deals with Central America immigrants.
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Post by Brother Fease on Sept 18, 2022 14:15:24 GMT
Was bringing in the national guard for 50 people really necessary? It’s really easy to play the “we love immigrants” game when you’re as far away from the southern border as you can be at your basically all white vacation island on the opposite end of the country and never actually have to deal with them. You got your photo op with the illegals, posted the pics on social media for clout and then promptly sicced the national guard on them the next day. Incredible that this little stunt has gotten magnitudes more media coverage than the actual crisis happening at the border where we’re seeing small towns get overrun with thousands of illegals each day. Catholic charities are doing the heavy lifting in the south dealing with all these people but the supposedly rich snobs at Martha’s Vineyard needed to set up a gofundme to care for 50 people? The gofundme raised, what, 45k? That’s a drop in the bucket for the average resident of Martha’s Vineyard You continue to miss the point here. These immigrants were sent WITHOUT notification. Cities and towns formulate their policies around the people who inhabit them. Martha's Vineyard is not structurally designed to be a safe haven for Central American immigrants looking to escape poverty and political corruption. These regressive governors are simply sending them (a) without notification and (b) without asking permission. It was done in a cruel and divisive manner. Abbott and DeSantis are fully aware of these immigrants are either going to get turned away or live their temporary. It is an immature way to address a major issue. And as I explained before, these governors are really about getting re-elected and have yet to explain what should happen with U.S immigration system. What are they doing is sending these people over and then go right-wing media and say, "Look here, we just owed the libs. Look how racist they are".
It would also help if the Republicans in the House and Senate were not hellbent on trying to block everything the Democrats propose.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Sept 18, 2022 16:27:12 GMT
I read that, since April Abbott (Texas) and Doucey (Arizona) have sent at least 9,600 migrants to New York, Washington and Chicago, a move that prompted the capital's first citizen, the dem Muriel Bowser, to declare a state of emergency.
It's ridiculous. 9600 immigrants in 3 big cities in 6 months, and they declare the state of emergency?
That's the average number of illegal immigrants arriving in a week in Lampedusa, an Italian island close to Libya. Check the surface and population of Lampedusa, then tell me.
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Post by quetee on Sept 18, 2022 18:13:01 GMT
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Post by quetee on Sept 18, 2022 18:19:17 GMT
So this whole thing is a huge clusterfuck especially when we get all the details. It appears that these people were not illegal immigrants but were seeking asylum and that is a different story. If they were asylum seekers then you can't just take them from a location that already has rules set in place for them and reroute them to a place that is not prepared to handle their LEGAL case.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Sept 18, 2022 19:05:48 GMT
So this whole thing is a huge clusterfuck especially when we get all the details. It appears that these people were not illegal immigrants but were seeking asylum and that is a different story. If they were asylum seekers then you can't just take them from a location that already has rules set in place for them and reroute them to a place that is not prepared to handle their LEGAL case. Almost all the illegal immigrants getting into Europe declare they are asylum seekers, because they cannot be expelled immediately and they can stay until their case is examined and they can oppose against the decision, this grants them up to 3 years. Obviously some of them are really people needing protection, but not the majority of them.
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Post by pacinoyes on Sept 18, 2022 19:28:57 GMT
So this whole thing is a huge clusterfuck especially when we get all the details. It appears that these people were not illegal immigrants but were seeking asylum and that is a different story. If they were asylum seekers then you can't just take them from a location that already has rules set in place for them and reroute them to a place that is not prepared to handle their LEGAL case. Almost all the illegal immigrants getting into Europe declare they are asylum seekers, because they cannot be expelled immediately and they can stay until their case is examined and they can oppose against the decision, this grants them up to 3 years. Obviously some of them are really people needing protection, but not the majority of them. The curse of Trump - there are a lot of them - but the main one is never admitting you have a problem or were wrong........the Biden administration must know their statements can't fly when you have the actual illegal immigrants saying this - and this is from this recent event - this is not old. I can understand the administration being blindsided by this - it was a pretty dick move by DeSantis / Abbott but they have no idea - at all - how much it would help the Democratic Party just to be honest - to say something like "this was a dick move by those 2 governors (um), the border is a problem - we are going to solve it - and Joe Biden and Kamala Harris will be going to Florida, Texas, Arizona as soon as possible. THAT's what you have to do - you want to get under DeSantis' skin ..........that's ^ how you do it ........and you win over the people too .......
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 20, 2022 1:37:01 GMT
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Post by hugobolso on Sept 20, 2022 15:56:44 GMT
I try in the past few days to be at margin of it. After all are US issues. I dould say the rich guys give the inmigrants cornflakes from the 70s and not 2022 Beluga and all these sarcastic jokes. But I prefer to be silent. These is about people future.-
But how exactly a texas Sheriff could investigate the Florida Governor? Should investigate I guess a Texan Governor.-
And he has no idea of what charge, or what kind of investigation. That happens when the sheriffs are elected by political parties, and not ascend by their own merits.-
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Sept 20, 2022 17:15:01 GMT
I learned reading this thread that using hundreds of thousands of dollars for human trafficking is cool if it's done to own the libs. Good to know.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 20, 2022 17:52:37 GMT
But how exactly a texas Sheriff could investigate the Florida Governor?
Should investigate I guess a Texan Governor.-
If you were a sheriff and a governor of another state crossed jurisdictional lines to traffic people from your state, yeah I'm pretty sure in that case you could investigate the governor of that state.
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Post by pacinoyes on Sept 20, 2022 18:16:44 GMT
This is yet another false story though - it actually perfectly illustrative of how pathetic things are:
@ ~1:20 the sherriff says - and I quote "At this point I am not able to say here's the statute that they broke either federal, state or local"
See what that means is "I'm just letting you know it was bad people!" ......this is a repeated charade in US Politics in 2022 - Republicans either break the law or come really really close to it - but the Democrats - and this Sherrif Salazar - an elected Democrat btw - can't put those people in jail - or will flat out refuse to prosecute them even - but damn sure he will look straight into a camera and say that he is outraged......everybody does their political stunt basically.....
Trust me - until Merrick Garland grows a dick and actually prosecutes Trump - I can assure you that the Ron DeSantis' of the world can keep up this Snidely Whiplash bullshit for quite some time.....
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Post by hugobolso on Sept 20, 2022 18:30:47 GMT
Edit because Im tired of this disscussion
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 21, 2022 17:59:03 GMT
apparently Charlie Crist raised $1 million in the 48 hours after news of this stunt. I don't think Crist is going to win, I mean he's a long shot at best and honestly I'd say he has no chance in hell. But this is a small piece of evidence that politically this was a win for the dems and DeSantis is on the defensive and looks like the bad guy (in an 80s movie). Even if you can't press him on charges and even if the migrants' civil lawsuit goes nowhere, it's good for dems to talk about this because lying to asylum seekers to lure them across state lines onto a plane (with $10 McDonald's gift cards and a fake brochure) just so you can dump them like trash in a lib enclave to fend for themselves without any food or shelter is a transparently gross and predatory thing to do. These weren't undocumented people, they have legal asylum-seeking status and DeSantis fucked with them on the national stage and then claimed it like a stoned jock claiming the turd in the pool.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2022 20:05:36 GMT
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