|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 25, 2020 21:37:04 GMT
You aren't the only one here who thinks that. At least two other people on this thread have said this already, though it appears the majority are fine with it and think Denzel is a deserving no.1. DDL is great as well. No.3 is a strong spot for him. But in their era, Denzel is probably going to go down as the GOAT. I would not say I have an "issue" with it. Like I said, I "get it" even if I don't agree. Another pretty questionable omission especially in light of some of the other people who made the list. They were more interested in hot takes than actually covering the bases here. Even though this probably didn't factor into how they compiled their list, Bardem does fall into that category of great actors who have had a very rough last decade. Two Razzie nominated performances ( Mother and Pirates Of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales) and a lot of performances and films that fell flat or didn't connect ( The Last Face, Escobar, The Gunman, The Counsellor etc).He's a prestige actor, but he ain't really brought in much prestige since Skyfall. When you aren't a DDL (who isn't prolific, so can mostly avoid the stench of failure), consistency and still achieving peak performances is important. Bardem's career and performance level has stalled a bit for much of the last decade, considering level he was previously known for.
|
|
|
Post by fiosnasiob on Nov 25, 2020 21:44:34 GMT
Yeah Bardem started the 10's with a knockout performance but I don't see anything else being close to his best works. His 10's pale in comparison to his amazing 00's.
Now seeing who made the list, I'm not saying that he shouldn't have made it, of course. Los lunes al sol is such a beautiful, soulful performance, I want that Javier back.
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Nov 25, 2020 21:49:21 GMT
DiCaprio's 21st Century work:
The Beach Gangs of New York Catch Me If You Can The Aviator The Departed Blood Diamond Revolutionary Road Shutter Island Inception J. Edgar Django Unchained The Great Gatsby The Wolf of Wall Street The Revenant Once Upon A Time In Hollywood
But Mahershala Ali instead gets in for only two "just fine" performances in Moonlight (he wasn't even the best thing in it) and Green Book???
This list is clearly just made for publicity reasons and to turn the spotlight on these actors. Wouldn't be surprised if agents, managers, and publicists of various actors were behind this.
|
|
futuretrunks
Based
Posts: 3,203
Likes: 1,426
Member is Online
|
Post by futuretrunks on Nov 25, 2020 21:49:24 GMT
I would not say I have an "issue" with it. Like I said, I "get it" even if I don't agree. Another pretty questionable omission especially in light of some of the other people who made the list. They were more interested in hot takes than actually covering the bases here. Even though this probably didn't factor into how they compiled their list, Bardem does fall into that category of great actors who have had a very rough last decade. Two Razzie nominated performances ( Mother and Pirates Of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales) and a lot of performances and films that fell flat or didn't connect ( The Last Face, Escobar, The Gunman, The Counsellor etc).He's a prestige actor, but he ain't really brought in much prestige since Skyfall. When you aren't a DDL (who isn't prolific, so can mostly avoid the stench of failure), consistency and still achieving peak performances is important. Bardem's career and performance level has stalled a bit for much of the last decade, considering level he was previously known for. That's fair, but Oscar Isaac has had plenty of recent fails too. Life Itself, the Star Wars sequels (where he doesn't really get to do anything along with the films being terrible), The Promise, X-Men: Apocalypse, ...
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 25, 2020 22:15:37 GMT
Even though this probably didn't factor into how they compiled their list, Bardem does fall into that category of great actors who have had a very rough last decade. Two Razzie nominated performances ( Mother and Pirates Of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales) and a lot of performances and films that fell flat or didn't connect ( The Last Face, Escobar, The Gunman, The Counsellor etc).He's a prestige actor, but he ain't really brought in much prestige since Skyfall. When you aren't a DDL (who isn't prolific, so can mostly avoid the stench of failure), consistency and still achieving peak performances is important. Bardem's career and performance level has stalled a bit for much of the last decade, considering level he was previously known for. That's fair, but Oscar Isaac has had plenty of recent fails too. Life Itself, the Star Wars sequels (where he doesn't really get to do anything along with the films being terrible), The Promise, X-Men: Apocalypse, ... I actually said I wouldn't have selected Isaac either. But playing devil's advocate, I don't think his 2010s was anywhere as big a relative disappointment as Bardem's (especially considering what we'd come to expect from Bardem in the previous decade). Isaac had more of a mixed bag, but he was also establishing himself on film in the 2010's and didn't have the same burden of expectation placed on someone like Bardem. He got good notices for Robin Hood, was seen as a breakout star because of Inside Llewellyn Davis. Got a lot of praise for his work in Ex Machina and A Most Violent Year. Things definitely nosedived a bit for him in the middle of the decade with The Promise and X-Men: Apocalypse, but he also had At Eternity's Gate and Annihilation , which both got tremendous reviews, to bring up the quality level towards the end of the decade. I think the new Star Wars fillms are utter gash and will have hurt some careers, but I'd also argue that both Isaac and Adam Driver not only came out of that trilogy unscathed (of all the actors), but probably enhanced in some way. Nobody really saw Isaac as a cool action hero type before , but his pesudo-Han Solo character Poe Dameron went down well enough with fans, for Marvel to book him in the role of Moon Knight to lead his own Disney + series. So yeah, while I wouldn't pick Isaac myself, I think his 2010 decade had a lot to recommend it for him, considering it was his breakthrough decade. He made some shit, but pretty much all the good stuff he's known for came in the 2010s.
|
|
|
Post by stephen on Nov 25, 2020 22:30:12 GMT
He got good notices for Robin HoodStill don't know how that fucking happened.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 25, 2020 22:57:56 GMT
He got good notices for Robin HoodStill don't know how that fucking happened. Probably because he was an American who pulled off a reasonably convincing imitation of a Brit. See Paltrow, Gwyneth. And Zellweger, Renee.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 25, 2020 23:27:18 GMT
Damn, the industry is actually taking notice of this list! That was quick! Bron Studios, which has produced movies that starred Denzel Washington, Nicole Kidman, Viola Davis, Joaquin Phoenix and Melissa McCarthy put out a tweet congratulating all of them for their placements.
|
|
wattsnew
Full Member
Posts: 712
Likes: 347
|
Post by wattsnew on Nov 26, 2020 0:57:55 GMT
This list is literally just two people’s opinion, let’s not give it much merit (even if it is a horrific list). Although I do appreciate the inclusion of many POC’s.
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Nov 26, 2020 3:15:45 GMT
Yeah, it's just a provocative list made by two pretentious critics.
I would have been more worried if it was a serious one made by 200 or 300 critics over the world.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 26, 2020 5:18:58 GMT
The percieved value of the list is more in the prestige and importance of the publication that put it out, not neccesarily the amount of critics who vouched for it. The New York Times is a very big, very old and very prestigious deal,and that is why it is already getting response from parts of the industry congratulating those who got on it (I'm sure there must be some very annoyed publicists and agents today highly pissed off that their highly prestigious and awarded clients didn't get on that list and wondering why). When Time Magazine put Daniel Day-Lewis on the cover in 2012 and declared him the greatest actor alive, it carried some weight and helped cement his reputation as just that for many. Even though it was probably "only" the opinion of one writer/editor, having the brand itself of Time co-sign that viewpoint didn't hurt him or his rep at all. Because Time magazine is a big deal, and an ancient prestigious publication.
New York Times is a similar deal. Sure plenty of people will be "bah, I don't care", but because this is from the NYT, plenty of people and figures within the industry will take it seriously. If this list came from Buzzfeed, few would give as much of a shit because it doesn't have the weight, history or prestige of something like Time or the NYT. These publications are big co-signs.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 26, 2020 12:42:40 GMT
Interesting article. Apparently, they'd been working on the list for 4 months.
|
|
sirchuck23
Based
Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
Posts: 2,719
Likes: 4,828
|
Post by sirchuck23 on Nov 26, 2020 14:12:26 GMT
The percieved value of the list is more in the prestige and importance of the publication that put it out, not neccesarily the amount of critics who vouched for it. The New York Times is a very big, very old and very prestigious deal,and that is why it is already getting response from parts of the industry congratulating those who got on it (I'm sure there must be some very annoyed publicists and agents today highly pissed off that their highly prestigious and awarded clients didn't get on that list and wondering why). When Time Magazine put Daniel Day-Lewis on the cover in 2012 and declared him the greatest actor alive, it carried some weight and helped cement his reputation as just that for many. Even though it was probably "only" the opinion of one writer/editor, having the brand itself of Time co-sign that viewpoint didn't hurt him or his rep at all. Because Time magazine is a big deal, and an ancient prestigious publication. New York Times is a similar deal. Sure plenty of people will be "bah, I don't care", but because this is from the NYT, plenty of people and figures within the industry will take it seriously. If this list came from Buzzfeed, few would give as much of a shit because it doesn't have the weight, history or prestige of something like Time or the NYT. These publications are big co-signs. Not only that, it’s from the two major film critics at the NYT, AO Scott and Manohla Dargis, who’ve been around for decades. They carry just as much weight as any other American film critic. Only thing that would carry more weight is if Indiewire/Village Voice did one their huge critic sample size polls asking this question, but this is just as good as any other individual critic in the US at least. Esquire in the recent past has suggested Denzel is the greatest American actor alive, and Mike Fleming Jr of Deadline (major Hollywood industry site) said that DDL and Denzel Washington were the two greatest actors alive (this was around 2017 when DDL announced his retirement) so like I said it’s not a coincidence that you keep seeing the same actors at or near the top of lists like this.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 26, 2020 14:22:56 GMT
The percieved value of the list is more in the prestige and importance of the publication that put it out, not neccesarily the amount of critics who vouched for it. The New York Times is a very big, very old and very prestigious deal,and that is why it is already getting response from parts of the industry congratulating those who got on it (I'm sure there must be some very annoyed publicists and agents today highly pissed off that their highly prestigious and awarded clients didn't get on that list and wondering why). When Time Magazine put Daniel Day-Lewis on the cover in 2012 and declared him the greatest actor alive, it carried some weight and helped cement his reputation as just that for many. Even though it was probably "only" the opinion of one writer/editor, having the brand itself of Time co-sign that viewpoint didn't hurt him or his rep at all. Because Time magazine is a big deal, and an ancient prestigious publication. New York Times is a similar deal. Sure plenty of people will be "bah, I don't care", but because this is from the NYT, plenty of people and figures within the industry will take it seriously. If this list came from Buzzfeed, few would give as much of a shit because it doesn't have the weight, history or prestige of something like Time or the NYT. These publications are big co-signs. Not only that, it’s from the two major film critics at the NYT, AO Scott and Manohla Dargis, who’ve been around for decades. They carry just as much weight as any other American film critic. Only thing that would carry more weight is if Indiewire/Village Voice did one their huge critic sample size polls asking this question, but this is just as good as any other individual critic in the US at least. Esquire in the recent past has suggested Denzel is the greatest American actor alive, and Mike Fleming Jr of Deadline (major Hollywood industry site) said that DDL and Denzel Washington were the two greatest actors alive (this was around 2017 when DDL announced his retirement) so like I said it’s not a coincidence that you keep seeing the same actors at or near the top of lists like this. Yeah, it's been a pretty clear consensus in recent years with either Denzel or DDL at the top or thereabouts (so something of a rivalry, even if they never actually competed for roles). Denzel really coming for the Brando mantle as the new standard bearer for American actors. Guess that makes DDL the new Olivier equivalent for Brits, except without the theatre esteem.
|
|
|
Post by fiosnasiob on Nov 26, 2020 18:31:36 GMT
Damn, the industry is actually taking notice of this list! That was quick! Bron Studios, which has produced movies that starred Denzel Washington, Nicole Kidman, Viola Davis, Joaquin Phoenix and Melissa McCarthy put out a tweet congratulating all of them for their placements. Yeah the list has also been "travelling" a lot, I saw it on many News, even on Korean news which isn't that surprising when Song (and Bong) are included, it just pop up on France's most popular movie's website as well, it's NYT after all. Maybe they should have released it during the future Macbeth oscar campaing (if it's in the running) ? On a side note, I saw several "where is Charliiiiize" and yeah, Theron is very trendy and popular, few have a great and iconic combo like Monster/Mad Max on the whole list, and seeing how they were open enough to include "John Wick" they could have included "Furiosa"... i-n-s-t-e-a-d !!
|
|
sirchuck23
Based
Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
Posts: 2,719
Likes: 4,828
|
Post by sirchuck23 on Nov 26, 2020 18:48:48 GMT
Damn, the industry is actually taking notice of this list! That was quick! Bron Studios, which has produced movies that starred Denzel Washington, Nicole Kidman, Viola Davis, Joaquin Phoenix and Melissa McCarthy put out a tweet congratulating all of them for their placements. Yeah the list has also been "travelling" a lot, I saw it on many News, even on Korean news which isn't that surprising when Song (and Bong) are included, it just pop up on France's most popular movie's website as well, it's NYT after all. Maybe they should have released it during the future Macbeth oscar campaing (if it's in the running) ? On a side note, I saw several "where is Charliiiiize" and yeah, Theron is very trendy and popular, few have a great and iconic combo like Monster/Mad Max on the whole list, and seeing how they were open enough to include "John Wick" they could have included "Furiosa"... i-n-s-t-e-a-d !! LOL..I know man this would’ve been perfect to tie with The Tragedy of MacBeth next year. I guess since it was the end of the first 20 years in the 21st century they wanted to commemorate it.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 26, 2020 20:37:15 GMT
Damn, the industry is actually taking notice of this list! That was quick! Bron Studios, which has produced movies that starred Denzel Washington, Nicole Kidman, Viola Davis, Joaquin Phoenix and Melissa McCarthy put out a tweet congratulating all of them for their placements. Yeah the list has also been "travelling" a lot, I saw it on many News, even on Korean news which isn't that surprising when Song (and Bong) are included, it just pop up on France's most popular movie's website as well, it's NYT after all. Maybe they should have released it during the future Macbeth oscar campaing (if it's in the running) ? Yeah. It's certainly being talked about a lot. Here's a fun segment on Entertainment Tonight Canada of them discusssing the list. I like that the male presenter says his favorite Denzel film and performance is Man On Fire!
|
|
sirchuck23
Based
Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
Posts: 2,719
Likes: 4,828
|
Post by sirchuck23 on Nov 26, 2020 21:17:51 GMT
Yeah the list has also been "travelling" a lot, I saw it on many News, even on Korean news which isn't that surprising when Song (and Bong) are included, it just pop up on France's most popular movie's website as well, it's NYT after all. Maybe they should have released it during the future Macbeth oscar campaing (if it's in the running) ? Yeah. It's certainly being talked about a lot. Here's a fun segment on Entertainment Tonight Canada of them discusssing the list. I like that the male presenter says his favorite Denzel film and performance is Man On Fire!It’s that NYT stamp behind the list..that’s why it’s gaining buzz. I wonder how film Twitter is reacting to it. Man on Fire gains esteem by the year it seems. Radha Mitchell gave an interview recently on an Australian news show and when asked which actor in her career did she learn the most from, she said she learned the most from watching Denzel and how he prepared while working on Man on Fire with him.
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Nov 26, 2020 21:29:24 GMT
It's ridiculous that even ET Canada is talking about the list. Those two critics clearly made something provocative just to turn the spotlight on certain actors.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 26, 2020 21:40:33 GMT
It's ridiculous that even ET Canada is talking about the list. Those two critics clearly made something provocative just to turn the spotlight attention on certain actors. Like people have said, the New York Times is a big, big deal.The list is being talked about all over the world. Which I suppose, as you say, is the point. Countries like South Korea, Spain, Italy, Brazil are reporting it because actors fron their country made the list, and they are proud actors from their country were selected by the New York Times. People who don't like the list can and will dismiss it, but ultimately because it's the New York Times, it will have some level of influence, and on an intnerational scale.
|
|
|
Post by pacinoyes on Nov 26, 2020 21:41:59 GMT
The thread is ridiculous actually ...... This list was nothing like when DDL was on the cover of Time either........the difference for one thing was........you know..... he wasn't on the cover of Time with ...... Keanu Reeves just 3 spots behind him.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 26, 2020 21:45:22 GMT
The thread is ridiculous actually ...... This list was nothing like when DDL was on the cover of Time either........the difference for one thing was........you know..... he wasn't on the cover of Time with ...... Keanu Reeves just 3 spots behind him. I know you are devastated by this list (specifically Denzel topping it), but you don't need to be this predictable about it. It's not the end of the world.
|
|
|
Post by fiosnasiob on Nov 26, 2020 21:58:39 GMT
It's ridiculous that even ET Canada is talking about the list. Those two critics clearly made something provocative just to turn the spotlight attention on certain actors. Well did you watched the video ? They aren't blindly agreeing with the top, and certainly not about the inclusion of Reeves at 4. And honestly outside of Reeves all the actors in (at least) the top 13 are worthy of being in that list (some after that too), it also put in light some wonderful, more obscures (to the average person) actors like Song, Servillo or Tao. Have you seen their works ? You should ! I know you are disappointed by the absence of Leo (I'm too) but c'est la vie. He is not in this one, he will be in 10 others list, not a big deal.
|
|
|
Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Nov 26, 2020 22:27:41 GMT
Keanu being no. 4 (ahead of Kidman no less) invalidates the whole list. The guy's a sweetheart, but come on.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Nov 27, 2020 1:21:02 GMT
Keanu being no. 4 (ahead of Kidman no less) invalidates the whole list. The guy's a sweetheart, but come on. I disagree. Reeves wouldn't be my no.4 or anywhere near it, but critics lists in part are always about advocacy. Reeves is exactly the type of performer who merits advocacy. Has been iconic in more film roles than most screen actors will ever come close to being, yet still not given much credit for it (in part because his early reputation as a "bad actor" never fully escaped him, even when he was clearly no longer bad). I couldn't fully rate how good an actor Reeves is or isn't, because his alchemy with the camera is fairly unique. He's clearly technically limited, but there's is a comfortability and ease on camera that many more technically talented actors will never have or come close to having. He's incredibly watchable. It's how he has lasted this long. Limited actors have been raised to a pedestal before ( someone like Gary Cooper, a two-time Best Actor winner comes to mind. I will fight to the death to say that Keanu is a better actor than Cooper, who is somehow seen as an acting legend. But to me is a block of wood in almost everything). So yeah, even if I disagree with his placement on the list, because I believe in critical advocacy, I wouldn't say it invalidates the list at all. Reeves is an actor with an iconic body of work whose output and abilities are ripe for constant reassessment. It's actually a very ballsy and bold move to advocate for him to.that extent, because they aren't stupid. They knew exactly how many people would find it questionable. But that is what brave critics do. They advocate for someone or something they believe in. Vertigo was released to mediocre reviews and only became regarded as a masterpiece because later critics wouldn't stop putting it on lists and advocating for it.
|
|