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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 27, 2019 0:49:10 GMT
Norton was on the Bill Simmons podcast a few days ago to promote Motherless Brooklyn, and gave his thoughts on many things. But his thoughts on Denzel Washington were particularly interesting to me:
If you had a bunch of us...I think a lot of people would say, pound for pound, Denzel is the best actor working in the business. Because he's one of the greatest stage actors in America. Like full stop, no question. Classical...Julius Ceasar, The Iceman Cometh. I mean this guy has done canonical, big classical theatre. Fences by August Wilson, which I would say him and Viola Davis in Fences was one of the greatest things I've ever seen on stage. I've never seen an audience weeping like that. The film is really good. On stage I think it's one of the greatest performances I've ever seen on stage, that duet.
And he's a great character actor. Like that one he did recently about the guy....Tony Gilroy's movie, he's a lawyer (Roman J Israel Esq)...he'll play like Hurricane Carter...and then he's one of the biggest movie stars in the world. He really does it all. But very, very few people are like that. I think Daniel Day-Lewis is one of the greatest actors ever, but he hasn't like....I mean who is one of the greatest stage actors in the country, a huge movie star and actually like one of the really great film character actors too? There just aren't many people like that.
His thoughts on Washington begin about 1:03:35, but the whole interview is quite interesting.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Oct 27, 2019 1:06:40 GMT
What Edward Norton said according to the thread title: "Denzel Washington is the best actor working."
What Edward Norton actually said: "A lot of people would say, pound for pound, Denzel is the best actor working in the business."
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Post by pacinoyes on Oct 27, 2019 1:29:08 GMT
If you had a bunch of us...I think a lot of people would say, pound for pound, Denzel is the best actor working in the business. Well that seems logical to say and nothing he says is false exactly .......... "working actor" seems far more reasonable to say as opposed to what's been incorrectly said in the past on this board imo - "living" actor or GOAT (which to me are not reasonable to say about Denzel) - although it's particularly eyebrow raising coming from Norton - an actor who turned his back on the theater and never achieved what he should have in film either. Washington is one of only 4 actors in the world today (and only 2 Americans) who has a BA Oscar and Tony - that's an astonishingly precise statistic - so right off the bat when Norton says "there aren't many people like that" he's not off-base from that perspective to begin with.
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 27, 2019 1:33:27 GMT
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sirchuck23
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Post by sirchuck23 on Oct 27, 2019 2:45:40 GMT
Norton was on the Bill Simmons podcast a few days ago to promote Motherless Brooklyn, and gave his thoughts on many things. But his thoughts on Denzel Washington were particularly interesting to me: If you had a bunch of us...I think a lot of people would say, pound for pound, Denzel is the best actor working in the business. Because he's one of the greatest stage actors in America. Like full stop, no question. Classical...Julius Ceasar, The Iceman Cometh. I mean this guy has done canonical, big classical theatre. Fences by August Wilson, which I would say him and Viola Davis in Fences was one of the greatest things I've ever seen on stage. I've never seen an audience weeping like that. The film is really good. On stage I think it's one of the greatest performances I've ever seen on stage, that duet.And he's a great character actor. Like that one he did recently about the guy....Tony Gilroy's movie, he's a lawyer (Roman J Israel Esq)...he'll play like Hurricane Carter...and then he's one of the biggest movie stars in the world. He really does it all. But very, very few people are like that. I think Daniel Day-Lewis is one of the greatest actors ever, but he hasn't like....I mean who is one of the greatest stage actors in the country, a huge movie star and actually like one of the really great film character actors too? There just aren't many people like that.His thoughts on Washington begin about 1:03:35, but the whole interview is quite interesting. Norton has always been a big fan of Washington..he actually wrote him a letter praising him for his performance in He Got Game when the film came out. I actually like how he gives credit to Washington to being a great character actor when he needs to be. Roman J Israel is a good example of that. Hopefully they work together one day. |
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Post by Lubezki on Oct 27, 2019 3:34:19 GMT
Norton is just a rabid Denzel fanbot  |
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Post by countjohn on Oct 27, 2019 6:04:47 GMT
As the forum's resident Norton fanbot I think I should point out that maybe he was just being humble by not saying himself.
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Post by cherry68 on Oct 27, 2019 7:32:24 GMT
Washington is one of only 4 actors in the world today (and only 2 Americans) who has a BA Oscar and Tony - that's an astonishingly precise statistic - so right off the bat when Norton says "there aren't many people like that" he's not off-base from that perspective to begin with.
In terms of awards, Kevin Spacey has even more... But I guess he cannot be listed as working actor nowadays... |
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Post by pacinoyes on Oct 27, 2019 8:17:07 GMT
Washington is one of only 4 actors in the world today (and only 2 Americans) who has a BA Oscar and Tony - that's an astonishingly precise statistic - so right off the bat when Norton says "there aren't many people like that" he's not off-base from that perspective to begin with.
In terms of awards, Kevin Spacey has even more... But I guess he cannot be listed as working actor nowadays... Spacey does not have a BA Tony so he is not one of the 4 actors who has that specific achievement (Irons, Rush, Pacino, Washington) - he won his Tony for Featured actor (or Support) but he won a lead Olivier also which is impressive.........he would certainly be in the running as well if he was "working" from that awards perspective at least, yes that's true. Spacey is the living male actor who is closest to the Triple Crown (Emmy/Tony/Oscar) who is still missing it - 2 Oscars, 1 Tony.........0 Emmy's in 7 nominations. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Oct 27, 2019 8:53:24 GMT
Triple crown again, and what's so important about "winning" Tony. I don't think it's the truest indicator of one being the greatest actor of all Time. Denzel is a great dramatic but I don't think He can give comedic perf as great as Hoffman or Nicholson or Eddie Murphy. Attack me! Well the triple crown is sorta my pet thing ray .......um........I agree that he's missing comedy tbh (especially a romantic one), Denzel's overall spotty filmography, an Emmy and a BAFTA actually are the things that sort of muddy the water when talking about Denzel - although 2 of those are just awards which I don't put much stock in personally tbh..............those things do stick out with him. I agree Washington is a generational actor imo - one of the best of his generation........Nicholson and Hoffman transcend generation - they are all timers -so......... Attack ME!  |
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Oct 27, 2019 17:29:32 GMT
Daniel Day Lewis has retired, right? If he hadn't, I would put him over Washington. But since he has, I can see it going to Denzel. Edit: Oh and btw Denzel is so funny in Carbon Copy. A little seen early comedy. I think he should have done more comedy, but he probably never gets offered that.  |
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 27, 2019 18:08:07 GMT
Edit: Oh and btw Denzel is so funny in Carbon Copy. A little seen early comedy. I think he should have done more comedy, but he probably never gets offered that. fired his agent after Heart Condition (an atrociously reviewed buddy/Ghost comedy with Bob Hoskins). To be honest though, he's pretty solid at comedy, and hardly needs to prove it. Not Eddie Murphy, but he doesn't need to be. As you said, he was very funny in Carbon Copy.
The Preachers Wife has is one of those romantic comedies that get rinsed by TV schedulers every Christmas. It's a romantic comedy with Denzel and Whitney Houston, that most cinephiles would never go out if their way to watch, but it's had a pretty long shelf life, and most of the reviews compared his performance favorably to Cary Grant, who starred in the original version, and is pretty much the greatest romantic comedy lead ever. The site Den Of Geek voted The Preacher's Wife and Grant's version The Bishop's Wife, joint number 1, as the most rewatchable Christmas films ever. www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/top-10-re-watchable-christmas-movies/39455/top-10-re-watchable-christmas-moviesI get the feeling he never did more rom-coms after The Preacher's Wife, despite decent reviews and solid box office because he didn't find it especially challenging. How hard is it for someone like him to be charasmatic and amusing? He pretty much treated it as a box ticking exercise. He made a successful rom-com, and never felt the urge to make another one. But he really could have made a killing milking that charming rom-com persona if he wanted to. |
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Oct 27, 2019 18:13:35 GMT
Edit: Oh and btw Denzel is so funny in Carbon Copy. A little seen early comedy. I think he should have done more comedy, but he probably never gets offered that. How hard is it for someone like him to be charasmatic and amusing? Good point. lol. Not at all. Even in films of his that I don't care for or that I find mediocre, he's still charismatic and amusing somehow. |
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 29, 2019 10:28:03 GMT
As the forum's resident Norton fanbot I think I should point out that maybe he was just being humble by not saying himself. Going by the criterion Norton singled out Washington by, he'd probably exclude himself from consideration. Norton obviously places a premium on stagecraft and stage credentials (as do very many actors, as much as fanboys of your favorite movie star actors would like you to believe otherwise). Yeah, Norton does have stage credentials, but they were at the start of his career, and he never expanded on it . He probably wishes he'd done more, especially as he had the capability. Add to that, he see's Washington as an equally adept/great movie star and film character actor, and as talented as Norton is, I don't think he'd realistically feel he can compete with that. But that's only my take on it. |
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Post by therealcomicman117 on Oct 30, 2019 17:46:00 GMT
Edit: Oh and btw Denzel is so funny in Carbon Copy. A little seen early comedy. I think he should have done more comedy, but he probably never gets offered that. fired his agent after Heart Condition (an atrociously reviewed buddy/Ghost comedy with Bob Hoskins). To be honest though, he's pretty solid at comedy, and hardly needs to prove it. Not Eddie Murphy, but he doesn't need to be. As you said, he was very funny in Carbon Copy.
The Preachers Wife has is one of those romantic comedies that get rinsed by TV schedulers every Christmas. It's a romantic comedy with Denzel and Whitney Houston, that most cinephiles would never go out if their way to watch, but it's had a pretty long shelf life, and most of the reviews compared his performance favorably to Cary Grant, who starred in the original version, and is pretty much the greatest romantic comedy lead ever. The site Den Of Geek voted The Preacher's Wife and Grant's version The Bishop's Wife, joint number 1, as the most rewatchable Christmas films ever. www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/top-10-re-watchable-christmas-movies/39455/top-10-re-watchable-christmas-moviesI get the feeling he never did more rom-coms after The Preacher's Wife, despite decent reviews and solid box office because he didn't find it especially challenging. How hard is it for someone like him to be charasmatic and amusing? He pretty much treated it as a box ticking exercise. He made a successful rom-com, and never felt the urge to make another one. But he really could have made a killing milking that charming rom-com persona if he wanted to. Speaking of The Preacher's Wife, I'm honestly surprised that Denzel didn't do more romantic films, especially considering his status as a sex symbol in the 1990s. Outside of The Preacher's Wife, there's just Mississippi Masala (obviously not a comedy, but a good movie nonetheless), and that's it. Even in his action films when he does have a love interest, she's usually heavily secondary to the big images on the screen.
Honestly I get what he's saying about romantic comedies. They're very formulaic in general, and don't require much in the way of acting outside of maybe good comedy chops. Still I think he would have been perfect for a sensual "sexual romantic drama", and we never really got that much if at all, especially in his prime.
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Post by pacinoyes on Oct 30, 2019 19:32:05 GMT
Speaking of The Preacher's Wife, I'm honestly surprised that Denzel didn't do more romantic films, especially considering his status as a sex symbol in the 1990s. Outside of The Preacher's Wife, there's just Mississippi Masala (obviously not a comedy, but a good movie nonetheless), and that's it. Even in his action films when he does have a love interest, she's usually heavily secondary to the big images on the screen.
Honestly I get what he's saying about romantic comedies. They're very formulaic in general, and don't require much in the way of acting outside of maybe good comedy chops. Still I think he would have been perfect for a sensual "sexual romantic drama", and we never really got that much if at all, especially in his prime.
The real "problem" (for lack of a better word) for him in this regard is 2 or 3 or more of the actors he's sometimes lumped in with as "best American of his generation (or in his age group)" have triumphed in big comedies especially Hanks his main rival.......and Sean Penn has a lead Oscar nomination for a comedy.......Ralph Fiennes (a Brit) has a madcap lead comic triumph, Jeff Bridges has a beloved comic film etc. A few years back I thought he was going to pull a full De Niro and go all comedies - that was around the time of Two Guns. He might still ..... |
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Post by TerryMontana on Oct 30, 2019 19:40:34 GMT
Actually, Hanks' case was totally different. He started from comedy and he was a very successful comic actor (Splash, Sleepless in Seattle, an Oscar nod for Big) before going into more serious/dramatic movies (with Philadelphia), at which he excelled.
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Post by pacinoyes on Oct 30, 2019 20:05:55 GMT
Actually, Hanks' case was totally different. He started from comedy and he was a very successful comic actor (Splash, Sleepless in Seattle, an Oscar nod for Big) before going into more serious/dramatic movies (with Philadelphia), at which he excelled. That's a GREAT point........although I'm not sure the where you start thing matters as much as the "where you end up" thing if you know what I mean : Norton was saying that Denzel is the best "working" actor now (as opposed to "living" or "ever") and then he laid out his criteria - film, stage, character work. But clearly "comedy" didn't mean a lot to him and yet it meant a lot to ray who brought it up here............that's why it's always so tough to rate actors, everyone has different criteria that they value. I'm still stunned that anybody thinks consistency matters for an actor but you can't tell people they're wrong for how they feel either, they have that right ..........that's part of the fun of it all |
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 30, 2019 22:44:05 GMT
Denzel fired his agent after Heart Condition (an atrociously reviewed buddy/Ghost comedy with Bob Hoskins). To be honest though, he's pretty solid at comedy, and hardly needs to prove it. Not Eddie Murphy, but he doesn't need to be. As you said, he was very funny in Carbon Copy.
The Preachers Wife has is one of those romantic comedies that get rinsed by TV schedulers every Christmas. It's a romantic comedy with Denzel and Whitney Houston, that most cinephiles would never go out if their way to watch, but it's had a pretty long shelf life, and most of the reviews compared his performance favorably to Cary Grant, who starred in the original version, and is pretty much the greatest romantic comedy lead ever. The site Den Of Geek voted The Preacher's Wife and Grant's version The Bishop's Wife, joint number 1, as the most rewatchable Christmas films ever. www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/top-10-re-watchable-christmas-movies/39455/top-10-re-watchable-christmas-moviesI get the feeling he never did more rom-coms after The Preacher's Wife, despite decent reviews and solid box office because he didn't find it especially challenging. How hard is it for someone like him to be charasmatic and amusing? He pretty much treated it as a box ticking exercise. He made a successful rom-com, and never felt the urge to make another one. But he really could have made a killing milking that charming rom-com persona if he wanted to. Speaking of The Preacher's Wife, I'm honestly surprised that Denzel didn't do more romantic films, especially considering his status as a sex symbol in the 1990s. Outside of The Preacher's Wife, there's just Mississippi Masala (obviously not a comedy, but a good movie nonetheless), and that's it. Even in his action films when he does have a love interest, she's usually heavily secondary to the big images on the screen.
Honestly I get what he's saying about romantic comedies. They're very formulaic in general, and don't require much in the way of acting outside of maybe good comedy chops. Still I think he would have been perfect for a sensual "sexual romantic drama", and we never really got that much if at all, especially in his prime.
solidified his status as a sex symbol and romantic leading man with Mo Better Blues, long before Missisipi Massala and The Preacher's Wife . That was as classic a romantic leading man role as you could imagine. In Mo Better, he was a tortued Jazz player, torn between romancing two women. That movie put him over the edge in terms of really getting him a big female following. That's your sensual romantic drama. He's literally done everything, that we sometimes forget things like Mo Better Blues were milestones in his career. I don"t think he ever wanted to coast on the romantic leading man or rom-com thing, because once you get to heavily into that, people can start to perceive you as a beefcake that is skating by on his looks and charm. Among black actors who went that route, it happened to Morris Chestnut, who went from Boyz In The Hood, to endless African-American romantic dramas and comedies, and ended up being seen as this sort of lightweight actor adored by black women. Among white actors who went that route, Matthew McConaughey.....he ended up being percieved as a lightweight skating by on his looks and charm thanks to being overly associated with rom-coms, and needed an entire career resuscitation movement named after him to shed that tag. We've even discussed how Richard Gere has struggled to be taken seriously because he leaned very much into the "I'm a romantic leading man, I make romantic movies, women love me" thing. Denzel avoided that. Denzel did it perfectly. He has a few perfectly timed "romantic" parts early in his career (Mo Better, Missisipi Massala, Preachers Wife...I'd even count his Don Pedro in Much Ado About Nothing as partial fanservice to his female fanbase), but didn't fall into the trap of becoming romantic beefcake. Once he got that female fanbase, they weren't going anywhere, and he didn't need to constantly top it up with romantic films. |
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 30, 2019 23:23:17 GMT
Actually, Hanks' case was totally different. He started from comedy and he was a very successful comic actor (Splash, Sleepless in Seattle, an Oscar nod for Big) before going into more serious/dramatic movies (with Philadelphia), at which he excelled. has about as much relevance to Denzel's stature, as Jack Lemmon did to Marlon Brando's. Which is none. It's a phony, imaginary, almost non-existant "rivalry" because they are so fundamentally different that the only thing they really seem to have in common is being popular actors that are American of a similar age. They can exist comfortablely in the same space, as neither threatens the other. In this scenario, Denzel is Brando and Hanks is Lemmon. Denzel is the intense, dramatic method actor that other actors idolise. Hanks is the likable movie star adept at both comedy and drama that actors very much respect and like, but not in the way they (mostly) ever worshipped or wanted to be like Brando or Denzel. You do not get middle aged Actors actors like Edward Norton or Benico Del Toro talking about Hanks in idolatry tones like they do about Washington. To be honest, actors rarely seem to rhapsodise unprompted about Hanks, full stop.Hanks is an actor other actors admire, without neccesarily wanting to be like. Lemmon had a similar affliction
I don"t even think a third Oscar (which is possible for Hanks one day, at the clip he Oscarbaits) will change that for Hanks. He's too fundamentally "soft" as an actor to ever be perceived by other actors like a Denzel or Brando (and Lemmon was far better than Brando at comedy, but that had zero relevance to Brando's stature. And their Oscar track record is pretty similar).
Hanks and Lemmon will always be beloved movie stars mentioned in all-time favorite actor discussions. Some people will even say they prefer them to those intense method guys who generally dominate GOAT debates.But actors in drama school do not generally speaking, aspire to be these guys, and pretty much nothing can change that. Being seen as "nice" or unthreatening may make you a popular actor, but those are the drawbacks. Shia Lebeouf saying he didn't want to be compared to Hanks because he preferred "darker" actors sums up Hanks eternal problem. Shia thought being compared to Hanks mads him look soft.
In his generation of American Leading men, Sean Penn may have at one point been the guy who could have challenged Denzel's stature among their peers. Both from the intense method school, and at one point in his career, actors talked in worshipful tones about Penn, like they currently do for Denzel. But he's fallen off so badly, that as I have said, Denzel's main American competition these days is Marlon Brando's Ghost. Whatever Hanks does, actors will never rate him or talk about him like Washington. He's not an edgy enough performer.
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Good God
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Post by Good God on Oct 30, 2019 23:40:06 GMT
I don"t even think a third Oscar (which is possible for Hanks one day, at the clip he Oscarbaits) will change that for Hanks. He's too fundamentally "soft" as an actor to ever be perceived by other actors like a Denzel or Brando (and Lemmon was far better than Brando at comedy, but that had zero relevance to Brando's stature. And their Oscar track record is pretty similar). LOL! Funny how you could be the GOAT if you had 3 Oscars back when Washington was in the running for his 3rd Oscar with Fences, but now with Hanks in the running for his 3rd Oscar with ABDitN, winning a 3rd Oscar won't change anything for him  Keep moving those goalposts |
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 30, 2019 23:50:12 GMT
I don"t even think a third Oscar (which is possible for Hanks one day, at the clip he Oscarbaits) will change that for Hanks. He's too fundamentally "soft" as an actor to ever be perceived by other actors like a Denzel or Brando (and Lemmon was far better than Brando at comedy, but that had zero relevance to Brando's stature. And their Oscar track record is pretty similar). LOL! Funny how you could be the GOAT if you had 3 Oscars back when Washington was in the running for his 3rd Oscar with Fences, but now with Hanks in the running for his 3rd Oscar with ABDitN, winning a 3rd Oscar won't change anything for him Keep moving those goalposts Sure thing Kingpin (that's your Awardswatch name, right) . While I do that,You keep on campaigning against Eddie Murphy for poor lil Leo on the all the other awards boards  |
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Post by Good God on Oct 31, 2019 0:02:59 GMT
Sure thing Kingpin (that's your Awardswatch name, right) . While I do that,You keep on campaigning against Eddie Murphy for poor lil Leo on the all the other awards boards Is saying Eddie Murphy is more likely to win the Comedy Globe than Leonardo DiCaprio part of my campaign against Murphy, too? Because I said that both on here and on there. And I believe that. I think Murphy is the favorite to win the Comedy Globe (unless Pitt goes Comedy Lead). Have to say, that's really rich coming from you though. You became the laughing stock of the Goldderby board with your ridiculous stanning and insane conspiracy theories on that forum. I can post the screenshots to prove it. Can you show me screenshots where I was stanning for DiCaprio and going on anti-Murphy rants the way you did against Casey Affleck? You can't, because I didn't. And I can post all the screenshots of your insane nonsense against Affleck. Because you did. I'm not a blind stanbot like you are. I respect myself too much to embarrass myself (like you embarrass yourself) in stupid attempts to help the awards chances of any actor. I say it like I see it. I think Dolemite and Murphy are Netflix's 4th priority as Oscar contenders, and I've provided evidence to support my contention. Where is your evidence against my contention? Let me guess, you have none |
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Post by pupdurcs on Oct 31, 2019 0:15:41 GMT
Sure thing Kingpin (that's your Awardswatch name, right) . While I do that,You keep on campaigning against Eddie Murphy for poor lil Leo on the all the other awards boards Is saying Eddie Murphy is more likely to win the Comedy Globe than Leonardo DiCaprio part of my campaign against Murphy, too? Because I said that both on here and on there. And I believe that. I think Murphy is the favorite to win the Comedy Globe (unless Pitt goes Comedy Lead). Have to say, that's really rich coming from you though. You became the laughing stock of the Goldderby board with your ridiculous stanning and insane conspiracy theories on that forum. I can post the screenshots to prove it. Can you show me screenshots where I was stanning for DiCaprio and going on anti-Murphy rants the way you did against Casey Affleck? You can't, because I didn't. And I can post all the screenshots of your insane nonsense against Affleck. Because you did. I'm not a blind stanbot like you are. I respect myself too much to embarrass myself (like you embarrass yourself) in stupid attempts to help the awards chances of any actor. I say it like I see it. I think Dolemite and Murphy are Netflix's 4th priority as Oscar contenders, and I've provided evidence to support my contention. Where is your evidence against my contention? Let me guess, you have none Dude, you are a hypocrite, so save the speech! Unlike you, I don't really give a shit what you do or say elsewhere. I could think of nothing more pathetic or sad than dredging through hundreds of your Kingpin posts on another board, searching for "ammo" to screenshot for asinine "gotcha" moments for some shit you said a couple years ago. I gots a life. Do you, pal... |
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Post by Good God on Oct 31, 2019 0:24:56 GMT
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