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Post by themoviesinner on Jun 5, 2020 9:29:41 GMT
There is nothing to stop a person from seeing themselves as a "white" American or an "African American" - there is nothing that forces love of the US Constitution which is the pathway to national identity......... where you have to literally choose - on some level to be an American FIRST and everything else is a lesser identifier. Once you don't believe that beautiful and tacit agreement - once you believe your skin color or ANYTHING ELSE overrides that...... well you can kill a cop (fnck you) or they can kill an innocent citizen (fnck you too) ....... and the citizenry can deface National monuments or buildings or attack itself and property even - you can rip it all up ...........you have the freedom to be idiots......and its not the girls cleaning the building in the video below. I wholeheartedly agree with this. I mean it's good to embrace your ethnic or racial heritage, but focusing on the things that distinguish you from others than those that connect you to them, is definitely not a cornerstone for unity and progress. Great progressive nations of the past have embraced all those differences, combined them and created a culture which everyone felt they had a place in. USA should strive for something similar, they should seek that cultural link that connects all American people. Only then can a country truly become a nation.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jun 5, 2020 10:12:49 GMT
It can corroborate a story in your head that you have already decided upon. You cannot know what the others are feeling by looking at a single picture, but you can pretend that you know everything about them. Your behavior is sickening. So how do you explain a body language expert who does the same thing? That is my opinion on the matter that the one cop looked down because he was ashamed and the other three looked straight ahead because they felt none. And it is very telling that the one who looked down is the one who spoke out. So if you think what I said is wrong, that is your opinion. First, you're not an expert. Second, I haven't seen anything from these experts to make me believe that they're mindreaders. Third, there's a saying around my parts: "Opinions are like assholes. We all have them, and some of them stink." My opinion on the films of Robert Eggers or Jean-Luc Godard, for example. Any "opinion" that looks at four pictures and says "one of these guys feels ashamed!" and corroborates it with a single piece of "evidence" that is an entirely different scene altogether stinks. I have a lot of opinions about things. I do not and will not accuse the thoughts of men that I do not know based on a picture and a video of a different scene which gives little information about these men's thoughts. My "opinion" in this matter is not that these men are or are not ashamed. (I will keep my opinion out of it, as it has no place in public discourse.) What matters is that we do not and cannot have the evidence to summarily judge how these men "feel" based on this evidence. To pass judgment on men's feelings based on your opinion is vile. That is my "opinion." Condemn the men for what they did, not for your opinion of what they feel about being arrested.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jun 5, 2020 12:30:04 GMT
I didn't realize George Floyd's mother died two years ago. For me, that adds more meaning to him crying for his mother as he was dying. So sad.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Jun 5, 2020 12:50:45 GMT
It can corroborate a story in your head that you have already decided upon. You cannot know what the others are feeling by looking at a single picture, but you can pretend that you know everything about them. Your behavior is sickening. So how do you explain a body language expert who does the same thing? That is my opinion on the matter that the one cop looked down because he was ashamed and the other three looked straight ahead because they felt none. And it is very telling that the one who looked down is the one who spoke out. So if you think what I said is wrong, that is your opinion. Body language experts are bullshit. Body language is not an exact science because not every bit of body language is evocative or telling. Only actors in character are ever consciously trying to make deliberate statements with their body language, most other people are hardly ever thinking of their body language and with that comes a lot of random noise and oddities. To even pretend to analyze someone's body language, you would need to establish what their baseline is: is flailing their arms indication of trying to distract you from their lying, or do they just flail their arms? Analyzing body language in a single photograph is absolutely useless. A photo is a fraction of a second. You could catch me at the beginning of a sneeze with my eyes closed during a memorial service and go, "oh wow, he's really taken emotionally by this" when the actual answer is no I'm just about to sneeze.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jun 5, 2020 13:15:46 GMT
I think the reason for all this racial violence that is prominent in USA mainly originates from the fact that there is no single or cohesive national identity among most American people. It is a country formed mainly from immigrants, so it is basically a potpourri of people from different racial, ethnological and cultural backgrounds, which often clash against each other. Even public institutions there (like the police for instance), which should definitely deal with everyone equally, seem to treat people differently, based on their race or culture. I think the only way to mitigate instances of racial violence is to cultivate a singular national identity among the American people, mainly through education and offering equal opportunities to all. Protests and riots may temporarily reduce racial violence, but once things have calmed down the problem will resurface once again. I mean, isn't Australia kinda like this? And we seem to be doing fine, comparatively at least. Really? I had an Australian friend and she told me things that make Australia seem even worse and reminiscent of America in the 1950s. She said there is even segregation going on in some areas. She said something about the segregated bars where the section for the indigenuous people are called "animal bars". Now this is all coming from her, my one Australian source, so I don't claim to know better than you do. You're Australian. Is all this true?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 13:47:24 GMT
I mean, isn't Australia kinda like this? And we seem to be doing fine, comparatively at least. Really? I had an Australian friend and she told me things that make Australia seem even worse and reminiscent of America in the 1950s. She said there is even segregation going on in some areas. She said something about the segregated bars where the section for the indigenuous people are called "animal bars". Now this is all coming from her, my one Australian source, so I don't claim to know better than you do. You're Australian. Is all this true? Yeah, I think it's clear that every country on earth where black people are in the minority (or majority, in the case of South Africa) has a problem with implicit racial bias. The US is unique (among the major world powers) in that black people were once enslaved here, though - it is America's original sin.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 5, 2020 14:06:03 GMT
Really? I had an Australian friend and she told me things that make Australia seem even worse and reminiscent of America in the 1950s. She said there is even segregation going on in some areas. She said something about the segregated bars where the section for the indigenuous people are called "animal bars". Now this is all coming from her, my one Australian source, so I don't claim to know better than you do. You're Australian. Is all this true? Yeah, I think it's clear that every country on earth where black people are in the minority (or majority, in the case of South Africa) has a problem with implicit racial bias. The US is unique (among the major world powers) in that black people were once enslaved here, though - it is America's original sin.France? UK? (or not a world power?).........and of course it's crucial to remember imo that the history of slavery is not white-black it's green-black - and economic - the history of slavery within Africa itself is ........astonishingly cruel ........... and there was never an appeal to a higher moral authority like in the US - that's what separates the US from any other country - it was established to be better than the flawed men that created it. ........ie Thomas Jefferson was a great man who owned slaves and was aware of his shortcomings and wrestled with it in relation to God - he was a great, flawed man of his time.........Idi Amin......well not so much. Slavery is our original sin and yet the painful progress from it has been our national salvation too.......
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Post by mhynson27 on Jun 5, 2020 14:11:15 GMT
I mean, isn't Australia kinda like this? And we seem to be doing fine, comparatively at least. Really? I had an Australian friend and she told me things that make Australia seem even worse and reminiscent of America in the 1950s. She said there is even segregation going on in some areas. She said something about the segregated bars where the section for the indigenuous people are called "animal bars". Now this is all coming from her, my one Australian source, so I don't claim to know better than you do. You're Australian. Is all this true? I mean I don't really go to bars so I'm not the foremost expert on this but this is the first time I have ever heard of something like that happening and I'm inclined to believe that your friend is mistaken.
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Post by mhynson27 on Jun 5, 2020 14:12:20 GMT
Really? I had an Australian friend and she told me things that make Australia seem even worse and reminiscent of America in the 1950s. She said there is even segregation going on in some areas. She said something about the segregated bars where the section for the indigenuous people are called "animal bars". Now this is all coming from her, my one Australian source, so I don't claim to know better than you do. You're Australian. Is all this true? Yeah, I think it's clear that every country on earth where black people are in the minority (or majority, in the case of South Africa) has a problem with implicit racial bias. The US is unique (among the major world powers) in that black people were once enslaved here, though - it is America's original sin.Australia? Or do we not count as a world power either?
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Post by mhynson27 on Jun 5, 2020 14:13:01 GMT
I mean, isn't Australia kinda like this? And we seem to be doing fine, comparatively at least. I have lived in Australia for five years and I can say from experience they have cultivated there a sort of national identity that is cohesive and adopted by most. That's mainly due to it's educational system (I've been to a Greek school in Australia and it was similar to any Australian school, with the only difference being that it also had lessons on Greek language and history, while similar schools in USA are much more cultural and religion based and therefore highlight whatever cultural differences there are). It also had a much more meritocratic social sytem and was generally safeguarded from foreign influences. And due to that most people there mostly put their nationality over their ethnicity or race and so a cohesive national identity was created. A big difference to the two countries is also that Australia didn't have big residential areas where only people of one culture or race lived together somewhat seclusively and where strict ghetto mentalities are easily created. In the subrub I lived in Sydney you would find people from several different ethnic groups living next to each other. Wait... You used to live here?! Where about?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 14:16:13 GMT
Yeah, I think it's clear that every country on earth where black people are in the minority (or majority, in the case of South Africa) has a problem with implicit racial bias. The US is unique (among the major world powers) in that black people were once enslaved here, though - it is America's original sin.France? UK? (or not a world power?).........and of course it's crucial to remember imo that the history of slavery is not white-black it's green-black - and economic - the history of slavery within Africa itself is ........astonishingly cruel ........... and there was never an appeal to a higher moral authority like in the US - that's what separates the US from any other country - it was established to be better than the flawed men that created it. ........ie Thomas Jefferson was a great man who owned slaves and was aware of his shortcomings and wrestled with it in relation to God - he was a great, flawed man of his time.........Idi Amin......well not so much. Slavery is our original sin and yet the painful progress from it has been our national salvation too....... Yes, France and the UK (both major world powers) profited from slavery - but I really don't think you can argue against the US being unique in this regard. But I do think you make an important point in that all of the Founding Fathers of the US believed that slavery was morally wrong, but the Virginia Dynasty all also felt that it was an economic necessity... Jefferson likened slavery to "holding a wolf by the ear," and his original draft of the Declaration of Independence admonished George III for his "crimes against humanity" - i.e. trafficking in the slave trade. Legacies are definitely multi-faceted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 14:23:17 GMT
Yeah, I think it's clear that every country on earth where black people are in the minority (or majority, in the case of South Africa) has a problem with implicit racial bias. The US is unique (among the major world powers) in that black people were once enslaved here, though - it is America's original sin.Australia? Or do we not count as a world power either? Chattel slavery was never implemented in Australia, though I understand if you label Blackbirding a slave trade. And no, Australia isn't a world power - Germany, France, the UK, the US, Italy, Japan, Russia, and China. Wiki
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Post by themoviesinner on Jun 5, 2020 14:29:05 GMT
Wait... You used to live here?! Where about? I lived in Hurstville during the late 90s early 00s.
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Post by themoviesinner on Jun 5, 2020 14:42:54 GMT
Yeah, I think it's clear that every country on earth where black people are in the minority (or majority, in the case of South Africa) has a problem with implicit racial bias. There's no such thing as inherent racism. Racism is a product of the upbringing and education one receives, in addition to the social conditions in which they exist. In a society that is dominated by huge economic differences, injustice and general lack of meritocracy it is only natural that racism will be cultivated.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 14:47:52 GMT
Yeah, I think it's clear that every country on earth where black people are in the minority (or majority, in the case of South Africa) has a problem with implicit racial bias. There's no such thing as inherent racism. Racism is a product of the upbringing and education one receives, in addition to the social conditions in which they exist. In a society that is dominated by huge economic differences, injustice and general lack of meritocracy it is only natural that racism will be cultivated. I never said that there was... Institutionalized/implicit racism is not the same as inherent racism.
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Post by themoviesinner on Jun 5, 2020 14:53:58 GMT
I never said that there was... Institutionalized/implicit racism is not the same as inherent racism. My bad. Then I agree, as the system itself is that which breeds racism, so if we collectively strive to improve our society, then instances of racism will definitely become more infrequent.
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Post by mhynson27 on Jun 5, 2020 15:06:46 GMT
Australia? Or do we not count as a world power either? Chattel slavery was never implemented in Australia, though I understand if you label Blackbirding a slave trade. And no, Australia isn't a world power - Germany, France, the UK, the US, Italy, Japan, Russia, and China. WikiHuh, the more you know.
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Post by mhynson27 on Jun 5, 2020 15:07:08 GMT
Wait... You used to live here?! Where about? I lived in Hurstville during the late 90s early 00s. Ah, nice.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jun 5, 2020 16:37:25 GMT
Really? I had an Australian friend and she told me things that make Australia seem even worse and reminiscent of America in the 1950s. She said there is even segregation going on in some areas. She said something about the segregated bars where the section for the indigenuous people are called "animal bars". Now this is all coming from her, my one Australian source, so I don't claim to know better than you do. You're Australian. Is all this true? I mean I don't really go to bars so I'm not the foremost expert on this but this is the first time I have ever heard of something like that happening and I'm inclined to believe that your friend is mistaken. I did find this: Animal Bars
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Post by mhynson27 on Jun 5, 2020 16:45:34 GMT
I mean I don't really go to bars so I'm not the foremost expert on this but this is the first time I have ever heard of something like that happening and I'm inclined to believe that your friend is mistaken. I did find this: Animal BarsOh wow, that's unbelievably fucked. Also explains why I haven't heard of them before, they're in the Outback and I live in like the heart of Sydney.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jun 5, 2020 17:10:41 GMT
Oh wow, that's unbelievably fucked. Also explains why I haven't heard of them before, they're in the Outback and I live in like the heart of Sydney. Yes, it's apparently way worse in the outback, so maybe that's why. And that's just one example she gave me. I was just shocked there was segregation going on in a country like that. And to call them "animal" bars. She also recommended me a documentary called Utopia that goes into detail about the racism there largely towards the Aboriginals. But to get back to the US, I agree with what was said about things having to start at the top. If the people at the top can't apply pressure and make changes happen, then what will happen is they'll just wait until the riots and protests die down and then we're back to more of the same. Change needs to also happen internally. This code of silence and environment of cover-ups in police departments needs to cease. Even the so-called good cops who would not do what Derek Chauvin did protect their own. There's a reason why that cop was so confident being on camera with his knee draining the life out of that poor man. We need to take that confidence away somehow. And I don't know how we'd even start.
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Post by LaraQ on Jun 5, 2020 17:24:14 GMT
It's hard to wrap my head around what a heartless monster Trump is.Imagine saying this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 17:59:59 GMT
It's hard to wrap my head around what a heartless monster Trump is.Imagine saying this. Obviously I'm not a medical doctor, but I do believe that he has some sort of mental handicap or deficit. Healthy people do not behave the way he does.
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Post by jimmalone on Jun 5, 2020 19:40:34 GMT
I think the reason for all this racial violence that is prominent in USA mainly originates from the fact that there is no single or cohesive national identity among most American people. It is a country formed mainly from immigrants, so it is basically a potpourri of people from different racial, ethnological and cultural backgrounds, which often clash against each other. Even public institutions there (like the police for instance), which should definitely deal with everyone equally, seem to treat people differently, based on their race or culture. I think the only way to mitigate instances of racial violence is to cultivate a singular national identity among the American people, mainly through education and offering equal opportunities to all. Protests and riots may temporarily reduce racial violence, but once things have calmed down the problem will resurface once again. That's a part as well, but moreso it is the history of how the different groups have spent their lives in the USA. There were hundreds of years of slavery in the South and a strong separation between white and black. That meant also that many white people didn't care about what black people said or thought. Their complaints were not taken serious and their lives were not important - as long as they did their jobs. Those are stances you don't get easy off people's heads. Fathers and mothers teach their views to the sons and daughters. I mean: Slavery was offically abolished in the USA in 1865 (now you can say: But in Europe it was just half a century earlier, but yeah, slavery here was never such a big far-reaching and only racial thing, the problem here was the colonialism, but that leads too far), but still over 100 years later in the 1960s black people were still viewed and treated as slaves in the southern states. So it's just one or two generations since and that's not enough to discard the prejudices and resentments. Education is one of the important factors. But I don't think you need an national identity, they have tried this in the USA for a long time already. You need really good schools and teachers for everybody, who might have a positive influence on the children to implement the right moral ideas into them. I mean as long as I read that there are still confederate flags in class rooms in some southern states, I don't wonder that there are many people with obnoxious racist views. I have long been saying that history is the most important subject to be taught at school. I don't know when you start learning this in the USA, but in my country it's only at the age of 11 and only two hours a week and I say that's not enough.
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Post by themoviesinner on Jun 5, 2020 20:08:08 GMT
I have long been saying that history is the most important subject to be taught at school. I don't know when you start learning this in the USA, but in my country it's only at the age of 11 and only two hours a week and I say that's not enough. I definitely agree with you on this. The basic duty of a country's educational system is to shape the youth so they become active citizens and to cultivate their critical thinking, so they always strive for the betterment of themselves and of society. And, as you say, the most important subject through which that is achieved is history. History teaches us a lot about our society, how it progressed through the years, what mistakes were made that lead to regression ect. History always functioned as a compass for the future, therefore through the critical analysis of history, society can progress and improve. Sadly, history, in general, isn't being given the importance it deserves in schools.
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