Nikan
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Post by Nikan on Apr 15, 2024 20:05:25 GMT
I mean I know MAR picks Leo... we don't shut up about that work ....... but by what margin?
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Post by urbanpatrician on Apr 15, 2024 20:16:27 GMT
Interesting how there are no lead actor performances in 1987 anyone cares about nowadays beside Max Von Sydow in Pelle the Conqueror.
Personally, Mickey Rourke in Barfly deserved to win but not enough people have seen it.
I'll pick Mike just to spite MAR. This is one of 2 DiCaprio performances I find great, but once again DiCaprio is always aided by other items that help it last thru time. Scorsese and Robbie. One will definitely last, the other might last.
However. Douglas and his iconography is the only thing that have lasted about Wall Street.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 15, 2024 20:25:26 GMT
Leonardo DiCaprio is a top 25 actor or something of all time maybe in the US - ever - maybe.......you can argue him higher or lower but he's somewhere in that general area - and the names I associate with him are names like Hanks, Phoenix, Washington, Bridges, Penn, Duvall .... guys I don't asociate with Michael Douglas in any way at all - and who not only isn't arguable for that top 25 or whatever it is tier batch ......he might not even be in the top 100 American actors for his skill set tbh ..........oh and WoWS is DiCaprio's best performance and he's funnier and better physically - that performance is genius level in its physicality.......people are forgetting how 1 note Douglas is in Wall Street imo....... Not close tbh
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Post by stephen on Apr 15, 2024 20:31:24 GMT
The DiCaprio worship is something I will forever find mystifying -- the man is far more miscast/ill-equipped for the roles he takes than not, and he is a much more limited actor than a lot of his contemporaries. However, I give credit where credit is due, and Wolf of Wall Street is DiCaprio at his absolute best, weaponized perfectly by Scorsese for really the only time in their partnership (give or take The Departed, which I largely like DiCaprio in but not to this degree).
Michael Douglas's performance is still nevertheless very good and has stood the test of time better than his fellow nominees.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 15, 2024 20:44:02 GMT
Douglas is an overall greater actor than Leo, as far as I'm concerned. I think Leo's all prestige, all the time approach has given him an air of "importance" as an actor that Douglas never really sought ( the range of his choices were admirably all over the place, from romantic adventure films to sleazy sex dramas to cop thrillers to superhero films. He may be the greatest, least Oscarbaiting actor of the last 40 years). But all prestige, all the time doesn't make you a greater actor ( Bradley Cooper seems to have cottoned onto Leo's approach to respectability and it's working for him).
That's not a knock to Leo either, because I put Douglas talent wise on par with his 70's peer group ( Pacino, DeNiro, Hackman etc), he just got started much later than all of them as a major film actor (mid to late 80's, where they all got cooking in the early 70's at latest). But the fact that he became one of the emblematic and iconic actors of the 80's and 90's is impressive in of itself.
Douglas, I give 3 Oscar wins as an actor. Leo I give 1 Oscar win.
As for this poll...there is no Jordan Belfort without Gordan Gekko. So gotta go with the OG.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 15, 2024 20:52:02 GMT
The DiCaprio worship is something I will forever find mystifying -- the man is far more miscast/ill-equipped for the roles he takes than not, and he is a much more limited actor than a lot of his contemporaries. However, I give credit where credit is due, and Wolf of Wall Street is DiCaprio at his absolute best, weaponized perfectly by Scorsese for really the only time in their partnership (give or take The Departed, which I largely like DiCaprio in but not to this degree). Michael Douglas's performance is still nevertheless very good and has stood the test of time better than his fellow nominees. I know you aren't a huge fan of this guy either, but for me Matt Damon > Leonardo DiCaprio.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 15, 2024 20:56:47 GMT
Oh, and Michael Douglas> Jack Nicholson
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Post by stephen on Apr 15, 2024 20:58:52 GMT
The DiCaprio worship is something I will forever find mystifying -- the man is far more miscast/ill-equipped for the roles he takes than not, and he is a much more limited actor than a lot of his contemporaries. However, I give credit where credit is due, and Wolf of Wall Street is DiCaprio at his absolute best, weaponized perfectly by Scorsese for really the only time in their partnership (give or take The Departed, which I largely like DiCaprio in but not to this degree). Michael Douglas's performance is still nevertheless very good and has stood the test of time better than his fellow nominees. I know you you aren't a huge fan of this guy either, but for me Matt Damon > Leonardo DiCaprio.I actually am a much bigger fan of Damon's last decade of output. I feel like he's kind of fallen into a groove where he's developed a cinematic presence and personality, whereas before he almost always felt like a hollow suit.
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Post by stephen on Apr 15, 2024 21:00:47 GMT
Oh, and Michael Douglas> Jack NicholsonIn 1987, for fucking sure. Ironweed is an embarrassment for all involved. It's Nicholson and Streep's worst nominations and probably their worst performances overall.
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Archie
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Post by Archie on Apr 15, 2024 21:02:39 GMT
This thread just might have the worst takes in MAR history. Very impressed.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 15, 2024 21:06:20 GMT
Oh, and Michael Douglas> Jack NicholsonIn 1987, for fucking sure. Ironweed is an embarrassment for all involved. It's Nicholson and Streep's worst nominations and probably their worst performances overall. I'm talking overall, not just 1987. Douglas is a character actor, not just a movie star . He doesn't coast on charisma and a schtick, which I think Jack did far too much. I get why it's popular and why people love it, but if I need someone to play Liberace or Benjamin Franklin, I'm calling Michael Douglas or Anthony Hopkins, not Jack.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Apr 15, 2024 21:07:28 GMT
This thread just might have the worst takes in MAR history. Very impressed. I can’t even keep up with them
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 15, 2024 21:10:58 GMT
This thread just might have the worst takes in MAR history. Very impressed. I can’t even keep up with them I prefer free thinkers. That's why I like stephen . We disagree a lot, but he has considered opinions all his own, and doesn't just march in lockstep to whatever he thinks might get him a round of applause on MAR.
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Post by urbanpatrician on Apr 15, 2024 21:25:47 GMT
pacinoyes - You liked the worst takes post. I really don't think it's unreasonable to suggest Douglas is a better actor than DiCaprio. In fact, it's a very honest and correct opinion.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 15, 2024 21:40:16 GMT
pacinoyes - You liked the worst takes post. I really don't think it's unreasonable to suggest Douglas is a better actor than DiCaprio. In fact, it's a very honest and correct opinion. Oh I don't just like posts that I agree with - I like posts that are kinda ballsy and funny......I like paul's post dissing caitlin clark's worldwide fame the other day I sure as fuck wouldn't like the post of some loudmoth dumbass who replied to my post with "Typical" - fnck off Douglas is not a better actor than DiCaprio.........Damon is not a better actor than DiCaprio.........Wall Street is not a better performance than WoWS............Douglas is not a better than Jack Nicholson.........in 1987 or any other year.......also Falling Down isn't that good ..........also Michael Douglas doesn't live anywhere near Al Pacino's or Robert De Niro's talent level address
Y'all are high........
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 15, 2024 21:44:05 GMT
And Spike Lee isn't a "small time" director, but hey, someone here thinks that's a reasonable opinion to put out there and not be laughed at.
That's MAR for ya.
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Post by urbanpatrician on Apr 15, 2024 21:49:24 GMT
pacinoyes - You liked the worst takes post. I really don't think it's unreasonable to suggest Douglas is a better actor than DiCaprio. In fact, it's a very honest and correct opinion. Oh I don't just like posts that I agree with - I like posts that are kinda ballsy and funny......I like paul's post dissing caitlin clark's worldwide fame the other day I sure as fuck wouldn't like the post of some loudmoth dumbass who replied to my post with "Typical" - fnck off Douglas is not a better actor than DiCaprio.........Damon is not a better actor than DiCaprio.........Wall Street is not a better performance than WoWS............Douglas is not a better than Jack Nicholson.........in 1987 or any other year.......also Falling Down isn't that good ..........also Michael Douglas doesn't live anywhere near Al Pacino's or Robert De Niro's talent level address
Y'all are high........
Well...to each his own. I think guys like Douglas (80+90s) and Damon (90s+00s) have built up enough good work and audience thru time to make it debatable whether they're better than DiCaprio or not. I dont feel DiCaprio holds any firm ground on movies or anything. As for Pacino and DeNiro. Well..Pacino is in my Top 3 and DeNiro is somewhere to be found in the bottom half of the 10....so I wouldn't go that far. That Caitlin Clark/Tyler Perry comparison is just a bad take tho.
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Post by futuretrunks on Apr 15, 2024 22:54:00 GMT
I always liked Douglas and he deserved his Oscar. As for comparing the two performances? I don't know - DiCaprio's is more strenuous in ways Douglas is incapable of - the intensity of the speeches, the physicality, etc. - but Douglas was instantly iconic for good reason. I don't think preferring one or the other performance is revelatory of much. That said, DiCaprio is the greater actor and an actual GOAT contender.
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Nikan
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Post by Nikan on Apr 15, 2024 23:30:01 GMT
I know you you aren't a huge fan of this guy either, but for me Matt Damon > Leonardo DiCaprio.I actually am a much bigger fan of Damon's last decade of output. I feel like he's kind of fallen into a groove where he's developed a cinematic presence and personality, whereas before he almost always felt like a hollow suit. I noticed I really like the reliable kind of actor he has become with Oppenheimer. Reminded me of William Holden, somehow
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 15, 2024 23:53:57 GMT
I actually am a much bigger fan of Damon's last decade of output. I feel like he's kind of fallen into a groove where he's developed a cinematic presence and personality, whereas before he almost always felt like a hollow suit. I noticed I really like the reliable kind of actor he has become with Oppenheimer. Reminded me of William Holden, somehow Great observation and something I've noticed myself. I think Damon has been great from pretty much the beginning of his career ( Good Will Hunting, The Talented Mr Ripley, Courage Under Fire etc), but I think his kind of wholesome, youthful looks and the naturalistic ease of his style has contributed to him being taken a bit for granted compared to some of his more consciously "intense" peers. Aging is really benefiting him a lot, as it did with Holden.I do think at some point in the next few years, Damon will probably dominate an awards season on the way to an acting Oscar (likely Best Actor). He's got a Network in him.
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Post by franklin on Apr 16, 2024 9:13:54 GMT
I've got to go with DiCaprio, it's widely regarded as his best acting ever, and rightly so, i've never seen a performance like that before.
It's one of those performances for which there's no precedent in film history, i felt the same way about Joaquin Phoenix in The Master.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Apr 16, 2024 13:12:24 GMT
I can’t even keep up with them I prefer free thinkers. That's why I like stephen . We disagree a lot, but he has considered opinions all his own, and doesn't just march in lockstep to whatever he thinks might get him a round of applause on MAR. Trust me that I don’t care about some MAR consensus and I respect someone having an independent unpopular opinion. Doesn’t mean I’m still not gonna think Stephen’s anti-Leo takes or your ‘Nicholson isn’t a great actor’ takes aren’t bad ones.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 16, 2024 13:31:08 GMT
Oh I don't just like posts that I agree with - I like posts that are kinda ballsy and funny......I like paul's post dissing caitlin clark's worldwide fame the other day I sure as fuck wouldn't like the post of some loudmoth dumbass who replied to my post with "Typical" - fnck off Douglas is not a better actor than DiCaprio.........Damon is not a better actor than DiCaprio.........Wall Street is not a better performance than WoWS............Douglas is not a better than Jack Nicholson.........in 1987 or any other year.......also Falling Down isn't that good ..........also Michael Douglas doesn't live anywhere near Al Pacino's or Robert De Niro's talent level address
Y'all are high........
Well...to each his own. I think guys like Douglas (80+90s) and Damon (90s+00s) have built up enough good work and audience thru time to make it debatable whether they're better than DiCaprio or not. I dont feel DiCaprio holds any firm ground on movies or anything. As for Pacino and DeNiro. Well..Pacino is in my Top 3 and DeNiro is somewhere to be found in the bottom half of the 10....so I wouldn't go that far. With Olivier and Bogart? ^
Douglas and Damon have a lot of good work but not much great work to me.......I don't hate them - heck I put Solitary Man in Douglas' top 5 ffs - but Wall Street is merely an iconic character imo - not an iconic performance - A LOT of guys could have played it, exactly like that too ........to me they are examples of guys who are like Ewan McGregor - jack of all trades - master of none .......never actually interesting enough to be bad, but rarely great.........I like them all just fine but I will always go for the idiosyncratic actors that swing and wildly miss sometimes over the guy who is merely solid like that......... heck I want my actors to swing and miss.......... a lot - as long as the home runs they hit are smacked way, way out of the stadium...........
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 16, 2024 16:17:19 GMT
I prefer free thinkers. That's why I like stephen . We disagree a lot, but he has considered opinions all his own, and doesn't just march in lockstep to whatever he thinks might get him a round of applause on MAR. Trust me that I don’t care about some MAR consensus and I respect someone having an independent unpopular opinion. Doesn’t mean I’m still not gonna think Stephen’s anti-Leo takes or your ‘Nicholson isn’t a great actor’ takes aren’t bad ones. I never said Nicholson isn't a great film actor. I've just said that relative to the position he's often placed in (like top 5 actor of all-time or whatever), he's for me, an overrated one. Anyone else who does what he does would be classified more strongly as a great movie star, but I dunno, the man has too many limitations that people just ignore or gloss over because he's fun to watch. I've rarely felt him disappear into a character that didn't feel like an extension of his own persona. I also value stage/theatre actors more than some here, and he doesn't have that either.
I think several great actors in the history of film are better than Nicholson (and many of them don't get his plaudits, like Frederic March, George C Scott, Kirk & Michael Douglas, Dirk Bogarde, Alec Guinness, Rod Steiger, Robert Mitchum, Burt Lancaster, William Holden and so on) . Doesn't mean he's not great himself. He is in his own way, and he obviously has had an incredible career and filmography. I just don't find him as great, as some do. I think that's a more nuanced take than you are maybe giving credit for.
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Post by urbanpatrician on Apr 16, 2024 17:58:01 GMT
Well...to each his own. I think guys like Douglas (80+90s) and Damon (90s+00s) have built up enough good work and audience thru time to make it debatable whether they're better than DiCaprio or not. I dont feel DiCaprio holds any firm ground on movies or anything. As for Pacino and DeNiro. Well..Pacino is in my Top 3 and DeNiro is somewhere to be found in the bottom half of the 10....so I wouldn't go that far. With Olivier and Bogart? ^
Douglas and Damon have a lot of good work but not much great work to me.......I don't hate them - heck I put Solitary Man in Douglas' top 5 ffs - but Wall Street is merely an iconic character imo - not an iconic performance - A LOT of guys could have played it, exactly like that too ........to me they are examples of guys who are like Ewan McGregor - jack of all trades - master of none .......never actually interesting enough to be bad, but rarely great.........I like them all just fine but I will always go for the idiosyncratic actors that swing and wildly miss sometimes over the guy who is merely solid like that......... heck I want my actors to swing and miss.......... a lot - as long as the home runs they hit are smacked way, way out of the stadium........... Maybe Finney. Murray. And Olivier and Bogart figures to be there somewhere I guess. I don't see Douglas like McGregor. McGregor is more like Jude Law to me. Attractive. Girl magnet. 90s+00s thing, but faded away a long time ago and hasn't been talked about for 15 years. Douglas to me is like Giamatti. Maybe not in the all-time conversation, but a really strong actor who has great work built up thru time. Or actually maybe he's like Nolte, or something. Never really Oscar baity, never really needed a PTA or Scorsese like Phoenix, DiCaprio, or PSH needed. But has always under the radar been doing big movies and doing the movie star thing. Bogart is the original anti-baity actor. That he took roles that were underappreciated at the time and now they seem to be somewhat.... classics. I think Douglas follows that mold. Solitary Man is another good performance. Forgot about that. He really had loads. You seriously don't like him in Falling Down? Best actor of the year to me. Yeah Hopkins was great, but I think Douglas is even better. Oh wait Murray. Whoops. Are you seriously gonna say Pacino was the best actor in 1993? COME ON NOW.
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