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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 15:29:56 GMT
Her presence is just so inherently cinematic. I don't understand why Feud wanted to insist that she had no talent. She may not have been the most versatile actor, but within her range, she was nothing short of captivating. Glamorous, magnetic, and often extremely moving - her performances are what cinema dreams are made of.
I don't necessarily believe all that has been written about her, but there's no denying that a discussion about her talents will inevitably circle to Mommie Dearest.
Are you able to separate this particular artist from her art? Do you believe all of her daughter's claims? Let's discuss.
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Post by stephen on Sept 18, 2018 15:47:54 GMT
It's interesting that she and Davis clashed so much, because they really were much more similar than either one would care to admit. Both were luminous talents at the start of their careers who wound up falling into a certain "type" and never quite got out of that particular rut, and almost every successive performance after that turning point were just variations of the same basic theme, usually to some sort of arch, campy degree that some people find charming but I find largely irritating. It's the "Jack Nicholson in The Departed" syndrome, when an actor reaches a certain level of reverence that a director comes off afraid to tell them to rein it in, regardless of the caliber or quality of the project. But in general, Crawford could be very good when she wanted to be and when the roles suited her.
In regarding Crawford as an actress, her daughter's claims don't matter because they have nothing to do with the work. If you want to evaluate Crawford the person, then yes, absolutely they do. But for me, the only time that separating the art and the artist is a problem is if that art carries with it the capacity to harm and hurt, and if the artist used that art as a way to gain undue influence and advantage on someone with the intent to harm and hurt. Other than Crawford's wealth stemming from her career and allowing her to live the lifestyle that she did, that criteria doesn't seem to apply here.
I can't speak to whether or not Christina's claims are true, but I'm inclined to believe that at the very least, her mother abused her. Did it go as far as Mommie Dearest portrays? I don't know, but I think she puts forth a very compelling argument. But I think it's so very interesting that a case of parental abuse spawned a meme that is arguably more memorable than the actual event it's representing ("NO MORE WIRE HANGERS!"), which I don't think would be the case today.
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Post by pacinoyes on Sept 18, 2018 16:25:12 GMT
It's interesting that she and Davis clashed so much, because they really were much more similar than either one would care to admit. Both were luminous talents at the start of their careers who wound up falling into a certain "type" and never quite got out of that particular rut, and almost every successive performance after that turning point were just variations of the same basic theme, usually to some sort of arch, campy degree that some people find charming but I find largely irritating. It's the "Jack Nicholson in The Departed" syndrome, when an actor reaches a certain level of reverence that a director comes off afraid to tell them to rein it in, regardless of the caliber or quality of the project. But in general, Crawford could be very good when she wanted to be and when the roles suited her. This is my nightmare for The Irishman - not that Pacino is OTT though - because he can be OTT and be great (or uniquely great anyway) - but that he will set the pitch or tone or some aspect of the performance wrong and Scorsese won't correct him or direct him at all. Like I've said a lot he's not really "right" for Hoffa but he's sorta close maybe, but he's the one actor who is not a slam dunk in that piece (ie he's not a gangster we don't know at all, he's a defined real character that we do) and it's his one time with Scorsese. Stakes is high (as De La Soul would say) Literally stressed over it, not kidding. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 16:37:37 GMT
pacinoyes - Only you could turn a discussion of Joan Crawford to Pacino's appropriateness for The Irishman. 
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Post by pacinoyes on Sept 18, 2018 16:40:15 GMT
Her presence is just so inherently cinematic. I don't understand why Feud wanted to insist that she had no talent. She may not have been the most versatile actor, but within her range, she was nothing short of captivating. Glamorous, magnetic, and often extremely moving - her performances are what cinema dreams are made of. I don't necessarily believe all that has been written about her, but there's no denying that a discussion about her talents will inevitably circle to Mommie Dearest. Are you able to separate this particular artist from her art? Do you believe all of her daughter's claims? Let's discuss. Well I have no problem separating the artist from the Art as I've said in the other thread - haven't come across one yet. I haven't seen Feud but I've seen Mommie Dearest and that specifically is part of the problem. First, the performance of Dunaway as her was so widely imitated that made people think it was all a joke - so first Dunaway was and then Crawford was - it wasn't of course, and actors - sometimes great ones too - who can be imitated like that run into problems because how do you stop laughing at the imitation and "see" the work (or real person), That thing where you can't tell what the fnck the performance is so you imitate it kills Crawford too. My favorite Crawford performance is in the cheap and schlocky Straight-Jacket - what actually is that........is that a joke or is she insanely, deeply committed to playing it like it's NOT a joke? Who else could play it? Who would dare? How would they do? I love that kind of acting - really, it's the whole point of acting, not to give people exactly what they want........she is not merely moving, she's moving in a way against what your expectations are. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2018 0:17:18 GMT
^ Me too. Not much gets said that she personally went through all her fan mail and was great friends with Barbara Stanwyck (she even mentioned that Stanwyck would have been better than her in Mildred Pierce had she got the role). Bette Davis and Joan went through the same thing from their children; they could have bonded about that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 19:45:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 23:52:32 GMT
Check out this archive of letters sent to Crawford from her celebrity friends - really beautiful sentiments from Katharine Hepburn, Laurence Olivier, Glenda Jackson, Anne Bancroft, among others: Celebrity Letters to Joan Crawford |
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Post by pacinoyes on Sept 26, 2018 23:57:38 GMT
That is a really good article and I'd recommend everybody read it but I'd majorly protest 2 points :
Comparing Crawford to Brando is way off but saying he was an embarrassment professionally at the end is flat out lie - Brando didn't make a film for 9 years and came back to an Oscar nod, he made duds but Don Juan DeMarco and The Score and The Freshman were in there too you know? That's a cheap shot and a lie and she's not served by that passage of the essay at all.
There's no mention of camp as a positive in here either - it appears again as a critique - "campy joke" instead. "In films like 1964’s “Strait-Jacket” ..... Crawford is positioned as a punchline."
Well not exactly she's not just a punchline at all in that film which I praised her in and by writing that the writer falls into the same trap people who dismiss her entirely fall into too.
Aside from those 2 things, the article is very good read, thanks for posting Tyler.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 21:59:29 GMT
Check out this archive of letters sent to Crawford from her celebrity friends - really beautiful sentiments from Katharine Hepburn, Laurence Olivier, Glenda Jackson, Anne Bancroft, among others: Celebrity Letters to Joan CrawfordWow, thats a mighty fine resource. Thanks for the link! |
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Post by MsMovieStar on Sept 30, 2018 10:31:17 GMT
Oh honey, I like some of her early films from the 30s that she did with Gable as she was a pretty good dancer but nobody ever seems to mention these. Undoubtably Mildred Pierce is her best role but she holds up really well in movies like Grand Hotel.
Bad parenting is rife in Hollywood but Crawford seems to be the eternal poster girl for this. This is a shame because it is quite a big roll call, then and now. I recently watched the Jane Fonda doc in which she pleads forgiveness from her daughter for not being there for her, because she was totally caught up in the narcissism of being Jane Fonda for much of her life. At least she was up front about it... although it did seem ironic when you are doing this in a documentary on yourself where you've just spent two hours plus discussing nothing but yourself...
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Post by MsMovieStar on Sept 30, 2018 19:00:17 GMT
Oh honey, can I just add that I'm never going to have children of my own so they won't be able to write anything bad about me. No Sireee. It's much better to be nasty to other people's children...
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Post by countjohn on Sept 30, 2018 23:29:54 GMT
Oh honey, can I just add that I'm never going to have children of my own so they won't be able to write anything bad about me. No Sireee. It's much better to be nasty to other people's children...
Who would write anything bad about you MsMovieStar? You're all class. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 17:48:09 GMT
"Joan Crawford is doubtless the best example of the flapper, the girl you see at smart night clubs, gowned to the apex of sophistication, toying iced glasses with a remote, faintly bitter expression, dancing deliciously, laughing a great deal, with wide, hurtful eyes." - F. Scott Fitzgerald
Fitzgerald also makes reference to Daisy Buchanan's "shining dark hair" in The Great Gatsby...
I'm thinking Crawford could have been his visual model for Daisy - what do you think?
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Schiggy
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Post by Schiggy on Nov 10, 2018 18:09:23 GMT
Feud made her seen more like a Pepsi Cola spokeswoman than an actual actress 😐
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