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Post by Mattsby on Aug 6, 2018 22:16:31 GMT
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Post by stephen on Aug 6, 2018 22:52:02 GMT
Rylance's take on Iago is something I've always been curious about. How does one approach the role that is arguably Shakespeare's most fascinating creation, one that has been the cornerstone for so many villainous characters in literature and media since? Reading these reviews, of course The Standing Man decides to flaunt convention and blaze his own trail, fucking with all of our expectations of grand diabolical speeches and instead making Iago more of an underminer than an overseer, not pulling puppet-strings but rather tugging at rugs under Othello's feet. I hope I get to see this one.
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 6, 2018 23:15:36 GMT
This is a pet Shakespeare project for me in a lot of ways............and it makes me sad a little. First, I don't how close Washington-Pacino came to doing it, but it could have been major and majorly American. Uniquely and specifically American - it hurts that they didn't do it.  Now the Olivier version in black-face, filmed in '65 and much praised in its day by Kael (and yeah, pacinoyes too) is blatantly mocked now, flat out made fun of by other actors as over the top, racist. David Harewood - one of the first black Othello's in the National Theater (maybe THE first?) laughs at him - LAUGHS - while praising his command of the language of course. When do you ever see that and see it in relation to Olivier? You're encouraged to laugh at him too ........ So, that's where we are now - what you have in 2018 is Othello as a piece of theater that can no longer be played by a white actor like Olivier did - Rylance now can not play it - think of that, Mark Rylance CAN'T play Othello? I am sure this version is good, I'm sure Rylance is great as Iago but that makes me sad I'd really bristle with this too: "But Claire van Kampen’s surprisingly jaunty production for the Globe takes the alternate emphasis: that ‘Othello’ is a tragedy about a young woman, Desdemona, who is murdered by her husband Othello as a result of his brittle ego and fragile masculinity."................hmmmmmmmm, that sounds interesting, different but false. Like Maggie F'N Smith plays Desdemona in the 65 film and it wasn't about her either and she's you know, pretty good. I just can't imagine a staging that would tilt away from the 2 males when one of the males is Rylance? Side note : Olivier's performance is astonishing in the film if you watch the whole thing and do not look at individual scenes. It is his Tony Montana......his I don't know what - Joan Crawford? - it's an actor way over the line, with bees in his pants, close to having several heart attacks, in a way that only the best actor ever (arguably) could dare. Can you imagine saying you "directed" him?
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Post by stephen on Aug 6, 2018 23:35:21 GMT
Now the Olivier version in black-face, filmed in '65 and much praised in its day by Kael (and yeah, pacinoyes too) is blatantly mocked now, flat out made fun of by other actors as over the top, racist. David Harewood - one of the first black Othello's in the National Theater (maybe THE first?) laughs at him - LAUGHS - while praising his command of the language of course. When do you ever see that and see it in relation to Olivier? You're encouraged to laugh at him too ........ So, that's where we are now - what you have in 2018 is Othello as a piece of theater that can no longer be played by a white actor like Olivier did - Rylance now can not play it - think of that, Mark Rylance CAN'T play Othello? I am sure this version is good, I'm sure Rylance is great as Iago but that makes me sad I'd really bristle with this too: Regardless of the quality of Olivier's performance as Othello, the fact of the matter is that it is the sort of role written explicitly for an actor of color, and he made that movie in the midst of the civil rights movement. I don't know Olivier's intent, but it's not like there weren't accomplished black actors who could've played the part against himself as Iago, if he wanted to tell the story. Olivier likely saw it as a challenging role and tackled it, but he really shouldn't have done so because the story of Othello is a racial one, and the optics of today rightly point out that a white actor taking on the role is in poor form, particularly where blackface is involved. To complain about how white actors can't play Othello anymore is incredibly tone-deaf; it's not like there is a dearth of characters out there for white people to play, considering that white has been the default race for centuries when it comes to this sort of thing. Othello is a role specifically written for an actor of color/minority, one of the few classical roles that is, and Olivier had the ability to cast someone suitable for the role while still using his name as clout if he'd played Iago. But taking on the part was a bad call, and I don't blame actors today looking at that decision and laughing at him. David Harewood's right: he knows that Olivier playing the part was ludicrous. I'm all for gender-flipping roles and particularly race-blind casting for most things, but when the subject matter deals so intrinsically with race relations and the subject of racial identity/conflict (as Othello is), you can't muck around with it. What Olivier did was a Kirk Lazarus move, one rightly skewered by Tropic Thunder. Because in taking on that role and smearing gunk on his face to approximate another ethnicity, it's no longer about the acting/diction, but rather that Olivier thinks that such a role is merely skin-deep. It isn't.
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 6, 2018 23:53:50 GMT
Yeah we are going to be pretty far off in this one - I don't even think that's historically accurate.
Olivier's version (Oscar nodded, for the record) came after a long history of white actors playing Othello - hundreds of years - and was actually a very racially conscious one by him - the first attempt to truly ground the role and make it race neutral. It was done because Olivier had already memorably played Iago and there was demand to see him play Othello.
As for the rest, I would say a Kirk Lazarus "gunk on his face" move is a cheap shot, David Harewood is completely wrong because it limits what you can do in the play - it makes the play safe Shakespeare then and that makes it, in general, boring Shakespeare too. I don't think it's necessary to stick up for white actors to play Othello, that's not what I was saying, I was saying, in one production, just ONE, Mark Rylance should be able to give it a go.
If your answer to that is "No"..............we just disagree. I think when the subject matter deals so explicitly with race relations you actually can muck around with it, you have to challenge those preconceptions and themes, at times and in some casting - and dare to offend too.
You just gave Rylance credit for flaunting convention........but not really he's not.
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Post by stephen on Aug 7, 2018 0:07:27 GMT
Yeah we are going to be pretty far off in this one - I don't even think that's historically accurate. Olivier's version (Oscar nodded, for the record) came after a long history of white actors playing Othello - hundreds of years - and was actually a very racially conscious one by him - the first attempt to truly ground the role and make it race neutral. It was done because Olivier had already memorably played Iago and there was demand to see him play Othello. As for the rest, I would say a Kirk Lazarus "gunk on his face" move is a cheap shot, David Harewood is completely wrong because it limits what you can do in the play - it make the play safe Shakespeare then and that makes it, in general, boring Shakespeare too. I don't think it's necessary to stick up for white actors to play Othello, that's not what I was saying, I was saying, in one production, just ONE, Mark Rylance should be able to give it a go. If you're answer to that is "No"..............we just disagree. I think when the subject matter deals so explicitly with race relations you actually can muck around with it, you have to challenge those preconceptions and themes, at times and in some casting - and dare to offend too. You just gave Rylance credit for flaunting convention........but not really he's not. I know he was nominated. I look at what he and Orson Welles did (in the same role) as both daring in terms of their presentations of the story, but the optics of blackface are just too distracting. Olivier in particular, because by that time the criticism of how minstrelsy was used in representation of black culture was much more abundant in 1965 than it was in '51. I think that Olivier had good intentions, but I also think that being from across the pond, he was a bit more tone-deaf about how it came off. You say he came off of a memorable performance of Iago and wanted to tackle the Moor himself, but that speaks more to his ego than anything else. Rylance, at least, is flaunting convention by playing Iago without the cruel Machiavellian overtones established by previous classic incarnations of the character. By the looks of it, he's much more rustic, working-class, seeming less like the grand manipulator and more like a guy with a grudge and a hate-on. But it's just not the same as deciding to put makeup on his face to make him look like a different ethnicity, because at that point there are cultural lines that you're overstepping that really oughtn't be, and to say that it's "daring" and "challenging" is kind of a glib dismissal of the issue. The role of Othello is one of the rare few in literature established specifically for an actor of color. To take that away from a capable actor who fits that description and give it to someone who doesn't, all for the sake of "an actor trying something new", just doesn't fly today, nor should it. There are limits to what an artist can and should do. It's up to them to manage those limits and use them to their benefit. I guess we are going to disagree on this.
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 7, 2018 11:36:03 GMT
Also we should mention that Othello could be played without the black face at all now too - though that is a differently nuanced discussion. Also to be fair we should mention that even after Olivier it happened with some great actors in the UK - in various degrees of black face - and was filmed memorably in one case too though less aggressively (Scofield, Gambon, Hopkins).
What's noticeable also now is how little I can think of an impressive Iago recently prior to Rylance. I don't even know if Kline has played Iago - I assume he must have - he's just perfect for an American at least for it. I know Ewan Mcgregor played it in a big production and (apparently) got outshined by the rest of the cast including Oyelowo as Othello.
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Post by pupdurcs on Aug 7, 2018 12:18:31 GMT
Rylance is getting quite a few mixed reviews for this. He'll get his share of automatic blowjobs because he's Mark Rylance, but I'm reading some critics (and quite a few audience members who saw the play) saying he's playing Iago like he's in a comedy and it's unbalancing the play.
Holland seems to be getting solid notices across the board.
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 7, 2018 13:47:01 GMT
There's no winning with critics or audiences for a long time now - there is no more belief in that, which is why I've argued the critics awards/reviews - in all forms of Performance Art have for some time now lost the ability to legitimately be called barometers of aesthetics.
Rather the BEST critics (or "some" critics) might be worth reading to discern a critical assessment but the aggregate - what was once called "the critical consensus", that's a laughable term now.
Rylance could play Iago a million ways, the way he chose to play it, I assume not having seen it, is guaranteed to upset some because what they want is him to play it one way. Unfortunately for them Rylance has a brain and thoughts and ideas all his own and the talent to make you question your own assessment of the work. Love the guy, love his work, but what's special about him is that he's not eager to please you.
That was part of my point in saying he should someday play Othello too.....
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 14, 2018 12:00:29 GMT
Seems the reviews have settled down and Rylance clearly won over the critics again if anyone wants to read them you can find them all online - feel weird trashing theater critics and then posting them (lol) - but he's clearly the standout of this production going by that "critical consensus" (again, gag) and regardless this is the first time Iago has sort of established his equal footing with Othello which has been dominated with the title role for some time now as I said earlier. Even if it's him getting by on his reputation, it's a comeback of sorts in the play, for Iago. Still say he has to play Othello or maybe at least do a whole different take on Iago too - God knows how many ideas he has for it and could work out on stage - and he could do Othello with make-up for me (I know, I know.......) or without. Here's an interesting production to show how far this play can be played with, female cast, and roles race-reversed (not make-up) - an interesting read : www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/41/33/24-othello-at-brick-2018-08-17-bk.html
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