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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 13:24:05 GMT
Obviously 'Sex and the City' and 'The Sopranos' - which would you add?
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 25, 2018 16:17:47 GMT
The Wire
There were also those ambitious early HBO movies like And the Band Played On and Indictment: The McMartin Trial - in that era, HBO dominated this - that changed the landscape and lead to an eventual "Golden Age" across networks. That eventually dovetailed with Mini-Series too and a significant increase in quality acting to the point where this Best Actor/Best Actress category here is significantly changed historically - at times it's even as competitive (or more) than the Oscars.
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Post by stephen on Jun 25, 2018 16:54:24 GMT
Lost feels like it was a game-changer in terms of network TV. It seems passe now, but it cannot be understated how much of a monstrous phenomenon it was, and along with The X-Files it pretty much cemented the necessity of showrunners and show bibles, due to the complaints that the creators were "making it up as they went along."
Deadwood should also be mentioned. It is considered one of the all-time greats and is usually cited (along with Firefly) as the chief example of shows cut down before their time, which gave rise to many networks beginning to commit to full-season orders and showrunners reshaping the way that they pitched series and crafted seasons, wary that they might be cancelled before they were able to tell their stories to their conclusions.
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Jun 26, 2018 12:00:59 GMT
I think Oz should get some points, if only for the fact the it ushered in the era of hour long HBO Drama brilliance. Also, had it not gone of the boil so badly in it's last two Seasons, it would rate as highly with me as The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and others.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 26, 2018 12:10:44 GMT
Oz was insanely underrated. Truly innovative and captivating show.
I don't think of Sex And The City as a show that helped usher in the golden age. I think of it as a popular half hour comedy that tapped into the cultural zetegiest, but wasn't in of itself a huge artistic achievement (it's not dated well). Sort of like Friends. I rate Fraiser more than Sex And The City, and I wouldn't put Fraiser as one of the shows that ushered in the golden age either. The Sopranos, Oz and The Wire brought a new level of sophistication to hour long dramas.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 12:35:40 GMT
I don't think of Sex And The City as a show that helped usher in the golden age. I think of it as a popular half hour comedy that tapped into the cultural zetegiest, but wasn't in of itself a huge artistic achievement (it's not dated well). Sort of like Friends. I rate Fraiser more than Sex And The City, and I wouldn't put Fraiser as one of the shows that ushered in the golden age either. The Sopranos, Oz and The Wire brought a new level of sophistication to hour long dramas. Yeah... I was waiting for it. I'll just refer you to Emily Nussbaum's brilliant piece in The New Yorker. (Emphasis my own.) When people talk about the rise of great TV, they inevitably credit one show, “The Sopranos.” Even before James Gandolfini’s death, the HBO drama’s mystique was secure: novelistic and cinematic, David Chase’s auteurist masterpiece cracked open the gangster genre like a rib cage, releasing the latent ambition of television, and launching us all into a golden age.
“The Sopranos” deserves the hype. Yet there’s something screwy about the way that the show and its cable-drama blood brothers have come to dominate the conversation, elbowing other forms of greatness out of the frame. It’s a bias that bubbles up early in Brett Martin’s otherwise excellent new book, “Difficult Men: Behind the Scenes of a Creative Revolution: From ‘The Sopranos’ and ‘The Wire’ to ‘Mad Men’ and ‘Breaking Bad,’ ” a deeply reported and dishy account of just how your prestige-cable sausage is made. I tore through the book, yet when I reached Martin’s chronicle of the rise of HBO I felt a jolt. “It might as well have been a tourism campaign for a post-Rudolph Giuliani, de-ethnicized Gotham awash in money,” Martin writes of one of my favorite shows. “Its characters were types as familiar as those in ‘The Golden Girls’: the Slut, the Prude, the Career Woman, the Heroine. But they talked more explicitly, certainly about their bodies, but also about their desires and discontents outside the bedroom, than women on TV ever had before.”
Martin gives “Sex and the City” credit for jump-starting HBO, but the condescension is palpable, and the grudging praise is reserved for only one aspect of the series—the rawness of its subject matter. Martin hardly invented this attitude: he is simply reiterating what has become the reflexive consensus on the show, right down to the hackneyed “Golden Girls” gag. Even as “The Sopranos” has ascended to TV’s Mt. Olympus, the reputation of “Sex and the City” has shrunk and faded, like some tragic dry-clean-only dress tossed into a decade-long hot cycle. By the show’s fifteen-year anniversary, this year, we fans had trained ourselves to downgrade the show to a “guilty pleasure,” to mock its puns, to get into self-flagellating conversations about those blinkered and blinged-out movies. Whenever a new chick-centric series débuts, there are invidious comparisons: don’t worry, it’s no “Sex and the City,” they say. As if that were a good thing.
But “Sex and the City,” too, was once one of HBO’s flagship shows. It was the peer of “The Sopranos,” albeit in a different tone and in a different milieu, deconstructing a different genre. Mob shows, cop shows, cowboy shows—those are formulas with gravitas. “Sex and the City,” in contrast, was pigeonholed as a sitcom. In fact, it was a bold riff on the romantic comedy: the show wrestled with the limits of that pink-tinted genre for almost its entire run. In the end, it gave in. Yet until that last-minute stumble it was sharp, iconoclastic television. High-feminine instead of fetishistically masculine, glittery rather than gritty, and daring in its conception of character, “Sex and the City” was a brilliant and, in certain ways, radical show. It also originated the unacknowledged first female anti-hero on television: ladies and gentlemen, Carrie Bradshaw.
Please, people, I can hear your objections from here. But first think back. Before “Sex and the City,” the vast majority of iconic “single girl” characters on television, from That Girl to Mary Tyler Moore and Molly Dodd, had been you-go-girl types—which is to say, actual role models. (Ally McBeal was a notable and problematic exception.) They were pioneers who offered many single women the representation they craved, and they were also, crucially, adorable to men: vulnerable and plucky and warm. However varied the layers they displayed over time, they flattered a specific pathology: the cultural requirement that women greet other women with the refrain “Oh, me, too! Me, too!”
In contrast, Carrie and her friends—Miranda, Samantha, and Charlotte—were odder birds by far, jagged, aggressive, and sometimes frightening figures, like a makeup mirror lit up in neon. They were simultaneously real and abstract, emotionally complex and philosophically stylized. Women identified with them—“I’m a Carrie!”—but then became furious when they showed flaws. And, with the exception of Charlotte (Kristin Davis), men didn’t find them likable: there were endless cruel jokes about Samantha (Kim Cattrall), Miranda (Cynthia Nixon), and Carrie as sluts, man-haters, or gold-diggers. To me, as a single woman, it felt like a definite sign of progress: since the elemental representation of single life at the time was the comic strip “Cathy” (ack! chocolate!), better that one’s life should be viewed as glamorously threatening than as sad and lonely.
Carrie Bradshaw herself began as a mirror for another woman: she was the avatar of the New York Observer columnist Candace Bushnell, a steely “sexual anthropologist” on the prowl for blind items. When the initial showrunner, Darren Star, and his mostly female writing staff adapted Bushnell’s columns, they transformed that icy Carrie, pouring her into the warm body of Sarah Jessica Parker. Out popped a chatterbox with a schnoz, whose advanced fashion sense was not intended to lure men into matrimony. For a half dozen episodes, Carrie was a happy, curious explorer, out companionably smoking with modellizers. If she’d stayed that way, the show might have been another “Mary Tyler Moore”: a playful, empowering comedy about one woman’s adventures in the big city.
Instead, Carrie fell under the thrall of Mr. Big, the sexy, emotionally withholding forty-three-year-old financier played by Chris Noth. From then on, pleasurable as “Sex and the City” remained, it also felt designed to push back at its audience’s wish for identification, triggering as much anxiety as relief. It switched the romantic comedy’s primal scene, from “Me, too!” to “Am I like her?” A man practically woven out of red flags, Big wasn’t there to rescue Carrie; instead, his “great love” was a slow poisoning. She spun out, becoming anxious, obsessive, and, despite her charm, wildly self-centered—in her own words, “the frightening woman whose fear ate her sanity.” Their relationship was viewed with concern by her friends, who were not, as Martin suggests, mere “types” but portrayals of a narrow slice of wealthy white thirty-something Manhattanites: the Waspy gallerina, the liberal-feminist lawyer, the decadent power publicist.
Although the show’s first season is its slightest, it swiftly establishes a bold mixture of moods—fizzy and sour, blunt and arch—and shifts between satirical and sincere modes of storytelling. (It’s not even especially dated: though the show has gained a reputation for over-the-top absurdity, I can tell you that these night clubs and fashion shows do exist—maybe even more so now that Manhattan has become a gated island for the wealthy.) There is already a melancholic undertow, full of foreshadowing. “What if he never calls and three weeks from now I pick up the New York Times and I read that he’s married some perfect little woman who never passes gas under his five-hundred-dollar sheets?” Carrie frets in Episode 11. In a moment of clarity, she tells Miranda that, when she’s around Big, “I’m not like me. I’m, like, Together Carrie. I wear little outfits: Sexy Carrie and Casual Carrie. Sometimes I catch myself actually posing. It’s just—it’s exhausting.”
That was the conundrum Carrie faced for the entire series: true love turned her into a fake. The Season 1 neurotic Carrie didn’t stick, though. She and Big fixed things, then they broke up again, harder. He moved to Paris. She met Aidan (John Corbett), the marrying type. In Season 3, the writers upped the ante, having Carrie do something overtly anti-heroic: she cheated on a decent man with a bad one (Big, of course), now married to that “perfect little woman,” Natasha. They didn’t paper over the repercussions: Natasha’s humiliation, and the way Carrie’s betrayal hardened Aidan, even once he took her back. During six seasons, Carrie changed, as anyone might from thirty-two to thirty-eight, and not always in positive ways. She got more honest and more responsible; she became a saner girlfriend. But she also became scarred, prissier, strikingly gun-shy—and, finally, she panicked at the question of what it would mean to be an older single woman.
Her friends went through changes, too, often upon being confronted with their worst flaws—Charlotte’s superficiality, Miranda’s caustic tongue, Samantha’s refusal to be vulnerable. In a departure from nearly all earlier half-hour comedies, the writers fully embraced the richness of serial storytelling. In a movie we go from glare to kiss in two hours. “Sex and the City” was liberated from closure, turning “once upon a time” into a wry mantra, treating its characters’ struggles with a rare mixture of bluntness and compassion. It was one of the first television comedies to let its characters change in serious ways, several years before other half-hour comedies, like “The Office,” went and stole all the credit.
So why is the show so often portrayed as a set of empty, static cartoons, an embarrassment to womankind? It’s a classic misunderstanding, I think, stemming from an unexamined hierarchy: the assumption that anything stylized (or formulaic, or pleasurable, or funny, or feminine, or explicit about sex rather than about violence, or made collaboratively) must be inferior. Certainly, the show’s formula was strict: usually four plots—two deep, two shallow—linked by Carrie’s voice-over. The B plots generally involved one of the non-Carrie women getting laid; these slapstick sequences were crucial to the show’s rude rhythms, interjecting energy and rupturing anything sentimental. (It’s one reason those bowdlerized reruns on E! are such a crime: with the literal and figurative fucks edited out, the show is a rom-com.)
Most unusually, the characters themselves were symbolic. As I’ve written elsewhere—and argued, often drunkenly, at cocktail parties—the four friends operated as near-allegorical figures, pegged to contemporary debates about women’s lives, mapped along three overlapping continuums. The first was emotional: Carrie and Charlotte were romantics; Miranda and Samantha were cynics. The second was ideological: Miranda and Carrie were second-wave feminists, who believed in egalitarianism; Charlotte and Samantha were third-wave feminists, focussed on exploiting the power of femininity, from opposing angles. The third concerned sex itself. At first, Miranda and Charlotte were prudes, while Samantha and Carrie were libertines. Unsettlingly, as the show progressed, Carrie began to glide toward caution, away from freedom, out of fear.
Every conversation the friends had, at brunch or out shopping, amounted to a “Crossfire”-like debate. When Carrie sleeps with a dreamy French architect and he leaves a thousand dollars by her bed, she consults her friends. “Money is power. Sex is power,” Samantha argues. “Therefore, getting money for sex is simply an exchange of power.” “Don’t listen to the dime-store Camille Paglia,” Miranda shoots back. The most famous such conversation took place four episodes in, after Charlotte’s boyfriend asked her to have anal sex. The friends pile into a cab for a raucous debate about whether her choice is about power-exchange (Miranda) or about finding a fun new hole (Samantha). “I’m not a hole!” Charlotte protests, and they hit a pothole. “What was that?” Charlotte asks. “A preview,” Miranda and Samantha say in unison, and burst out laughing.
The show’s basic value system aligns with Carrie: romantic, second-wave, libertine. But “Sex and the City” ’s real strength was its willingness not to stack the deck: it let every side make a case, so that complexity carried the day. When Carrie and Aidan break up, they are both right. When Miranda and Carrie argue about her move to Paris, they are both right. The show’s style could be brittle, but its substance was flexible, in a way that made the series feel peculiarly broad-ranging, covering so much ground, so fleetly, that it became easy to take it for granted.
Endings count in television, maybe too much. “The Sopranos” concluded with a black screen: it rejected easy satisfaction and pissed off its most devoted fans. (David Chase fled to the South of France.)
Three years earlier, in 2004, “Sex and the City” had other pressures to contend with: while a mob film ends in murder, we all know where a romantic comedy ends. I’ll defend until my dying day the sixth-season plot in which Carrie seeks respite with a celebrity like her, the Russian artist Aleksandr (Mikhail Baryshnikov), a chilly genius she doesn’t love but who offers her a dreamlike fairy tale, the one she has always longed for: Paris, safety, money, pleasure. It felt ugly, and sad, in a realistic way. In one of the season’s, and the show’s, best episodes, she saw other older women settling (Candice Bergen) or falling out of windows (the hilarious Kristen Johnston, who delivered one of “Sex and the City” ’s best monologues: “When did everybody stop smoking? When did everybody pair off? . . . I’m so bored I could die”). The show always had a realpolitik directness about such social pressures; as another HBO series put it recently, winter was coming.
And then, in the final round, “Sex and the City” pulled its punches, and let Big rescue Carrie. It honored the wishes of its heroine, and at least half of the audience, and it gave us a very memorable dress, too. But it also showed a failure of nerve, an inability of the writers to imagine, or to trust themselves to portray, any other kind of ending—happy or not. And I can’t help but wonder: What would the show look like without that finale? What if it were the story of a woman who lost herself in her thirties, who was changed by a poisonous, powerful love affair, and who emerged, finally, surrounded by her friends? Who would Carrie be then? It’s an interesting question, one that shouldn’t erase the show’s powerful legacy. We’ll just have to wait for another show to answer it.
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Post by Viced on Jun 26, 2018 13:56:25 GMT
The Larry Sanders Show was the most innovative half hour comedy that HBO aired in the ‘90s.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Jun 26, 2018 15:07:24 GMT
I know a lot of people here don't want to hear it, but Breaking Bad was probably the catalyst that pushed TV into where it is now.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 26, 2018 16:38:18 GMT
I know a lot of people here don't want to hear it, but Breaking Bad was probably the catalyst that pushed TV into where it is now. Why? It came after shows like The Sopranos, Oz and The Wire, which already took an innovative, almost longform novel approach to TV drama. Breaking Bad was a great show, but it came on the heels of the shows I mentioned. Mad Men is the same, as is Game Of Thrones. They were the first wave of beneficiaries, not the originators of the golden age of TV.
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Post by stephen on Jun 26, 2018 16:55:10 GMT
I know a lot of people here don't want to hear it, but Breaking Bad was probably the catalyst that pushed TV into where it is now. Even though I'd agree it's one of the all-time greats, I think it helped to codify the Golden Age rather than ushering it in. Breaking Bad benefited from shows that came before it because shows like The Sopranos and Deadwood wrote the formula on having villainous protagonists, and Gilligan himself learned from working on The X-Files how to hone his craft and knowing that mythology-reliant series needed a proper course to adhere to. It's still a vitally essential show worthy of all of its acclaim, but it built its empire on the backs of those that came before it. With that said, I'd also like to nominate The Shield. The first time (as far as I can recall) where we saw the true gritty brutality of law enforcement and the corruption it engenders on a personal level, rather than the sweeping Dickensian lens we saw in The Wire.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 26, 2018 18:20:20 GMT
I know a lot of people here don't want to hear it, but Breaking Bad was probably the catalyst that pushed TV into where it is now. Even though I'd agree it's one of the all-time greats, I think it helped to codify the Golden Age rather than ushering it in. Breaking Bad benefited from shows that came before it because shows like The Sopranos and Deadwood wrote the formula on having villainous protagonists, and Gilligan himself learned from working on The X-Files how to hone his craft and knowing that mythology-reliant series needed a proper course to adhere to. It's still a vitally essential show worthy of all of its acclaim, but it built its empire on the backs of those that came before it. With that said, I'd also like to nominate The Shield. The first time (as far as I can recall) where we saw the true gritty brutality of law enforcement and the corruption it engenders on a personal level, rather than the sweeping Dickensian lens we saw in The Wire. I like The Shield a lot, and it was a great show. But I saw absolutely nothing innovative in it. To me, it was literally Training Day: The TV series. With Michael Chiklis as Denzel/Alonzo. It literally premiered about 7 months after Training Day made a splash. Not a coincidence. Good show, but basically just adapted a movie. Training Day deserves the credit for being a game changer in the cop genre, in both film and TV. It's not comparable to something like The Wire, which did not just feel like some adapted movie spin-off.
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Post by stephen on Jun 26, 2018 18:38:50 GMT
Even though I'd agree it's one of the all-time greats, I think it helped to codify the Golden Age rather than ushering it in. Breaking Bad benefited from shows that came before it because shows like The Sopranos and Deadwood wrote the formula on having villainous protagonists, and Gilligan himself learned from working on The X-Files how to hone his craft and knowing that mythology-reliant series needed a proper course to adhere to. It's still a vitally essential show worthy of all of its acclaim, but it built its empire on the backs of those that came before it. With that said, I'd also like to nominate The Shield. The first time (as far as I can recall) where we saw the true gritty brutality of law enforcement and the corruption it engenders on a personal level, rather than the sweeping Dickensian lens we saw in The Wire. I like The Shield a lot, and it was a great show. But I saw absolutely nothing innovative in it. To me, it was literally Training Day: The TV series. With Michael Chiklis as Denzel/Alonzo. It literally premiered about 7 months after Training Day made a splash. Not a coincidence. Good show, but basically just adapted a movie. Training Day deserves the credit for being a game changer in the cop genre, in both film and TV. It's not comparable to something like The Wire, which did not just feel like some adapted movie spin-off. Of course you gotta bring it back to Denzel. The Shield and Training Day both found their roots in the Rampart scandal, and there's no way that Shawn Ryan saw Training Day, conceived a show and got it into production that quickly. FX may have been influenced by Training Day in terms of marketing and realizing that the success of Washington's film might've been transferable to television, but beyond that, to say that The Shield wasn't innovative because a movie came along half a year earlier and capitalized on the same real-life storyline in a different medium is a bit of a glib oversimplification. With that logic, you might as well say The Sopranos couldn't be a game-changer because The Godfather/Goodfellas exist. Television had never followed crooked cops before, and Training Day at least had Ethan Hawke's character as our POV into the depravity of it all, but he was still a moral character. The Shield's moral centers (Dutch and Claudette) are still incredibly flawed, and even so, they act as antagonists in the show because we are following Vic and the Strike Team. Even Training Day kept Alonzo at arm's length because we weren't meant to empathize with him or like him, and it's only due to Washington's charisma that we did. It's the same thing with DDL in Gangs of New York: he's a horribly racist, xenophobic thug, but he's compelling because of the actor's charisma, not his actions (and a rather weak co-lead). But The Shield went one step further. The corruption was the focus, and because we were invested in Vic's life, his family, and the way he treated his job, you started out rooting for him to elude justice while meting it out. The question is, when did viewers (if they ever did) turn on Vic himself?
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 26, 2018 19:04:21 GMT
One of the things I'd say here is that this "new Golden Age" was as much about the viewer as the shows themselves. People were seeking out a different thing and the new TV gave them that - so they were watching shows like I don't know what maybe Dexter say in ways that they wouldn't watch a show before - that's definitely true of Sex In The City and The Sopranos which in my neighborhood actually had parties where friends gathered around the show.
That eventually lead to changes in behavior, binge watching, DVR'ing everything etc. (I have friends that haven't watched live TV in ages)......it was a whole cultural shift. It was the final ironic twist - movies themselves had become what Siskel & Ebert called "televisionization of movies" where the rhythms and feel of the film mimicked TV.............really what happened is TV in some ways became "movieization" expanding character, content and addressing topics not covered before, blurring the lines in ways unforseen......
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 26, 2018 19:14:08 GMT
I like The Shield a lot, and it was a great show. But I saw absolutely nothing innovative in it. To me, it was literally Training Day: The TV series. With Michael Chiklis as Denzel/Alonzo. It literally premiered about 7 months after Training Day made a splash. Not a coincidence. Good show, but basically just adapted a movie. Training Day deserves the credit for being a game changer in the cop genre, in both film and TV. It's not comparable to something like The Wire, which did not just feel like some adapted movie spin-off. Of course you gotta bring it back to Denzel. The Shield and Training Day both found their roots in the Rampart scandal, and there's no way that Shawn Ryan saw Training Day, conceived a show and got it into production that quickly. FX may have been influenced by Training Day in terms of marketing and realizing that the success of Washington's film might've been transferable to television, but beyond that, to say that The Shield wasn't innovative because a movie came along half a year earlier and capitalized on the same real-life storyline in a different medium is a bit of a glib oversimplification. With that logic, you might as well say The Sopranos couldn't be a game-changer because The Godfather/Goodfellas exist. Television had never followed crooked cops before, and Training Day at least had Ethan Hawke's character as our POV into the depravity of it all, but he was still a moral character. The Shield's moral centers (Dutch and Claudette) are still incredibly flawed, and even so, they act as antagonists in the show because we are following Vic and the Strike Team. Even Training Day kept Alonzo at arm's length because we weren't meant to empathize with him or like him, and it's only due to Washington's charisma that we did. It's the same thing with DDL in Gangs of New York: he's a horribly racist, xenophobic thug, but he's compelling because of the actor's charisma, not his actions (and a rather weak co-lead). But The Shield went one step further. The corruption was the focus, and because we were invested in Vic's life, his family, and the way he treated his job, you started out rooting for him to elude justice while meting it out. The question is, when did viewers (if they ever did) turn on Vic himself? More than likely Shawn Ryan saw Training Day was going into production, and managed to get a greenlight for his own Rampart based TV show because a big movie studio greenlit a film with an A-list movie star. Nobody ever accused Hollywood of being original, but Training Day was a hot spec script for years. Would a TV network had taken a chance on The Shield if they didn't know a studio backed, A-list starring movie of essentially the same material was coming. Got my doubts. But Ryan had way more than 7 months to do his TV version. The Sopranos was a game changer because it focused on the neurosis of an Italian-American mobster. What made The Sopranos stand out from being some TV rip-off of Goodfellas, was the integral interaction between Tony and Dr Melfi. It was a complete subversion of the genre. This tough guy mob boss having panic attacks and needing a shrink. I never gave The Shield that much deep thought to be honest. i thought it was a well acted, well made compelling thriller series that I gave up after a few seasons, but there just wasn't enough of a hook for me to consider it particularly original. But if you rate it that high, then I'm happy for you.
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Post by stephen on Jun 26, 2018 19:25:08 GMT
Of course you gotta bring it back to Denzel. The Shield and Training Day both found their roots in the Rampart scandal, and there's no way that Shawn Ryan saw Training Day, conceived a show and got it into production that quickly. FX may have been influenced by Training Day in terms of marketing and realizing that the success of Washington's film might've been transferable to television, but beyond that, to say that The Shield wasn't innovative because a movie came along half a year earlier and capitalized on the same real-life storyline in a different medium is a bit of a glib oversimplification. With that logic, you might as well say The Sopranos couldn't be a game-changer because The Godfather/Goodfellas exist. Television had never followed crooked cops before, and Training Day at least had Ethan Hawke's character as our POV into the depravity of it all, but he was still a moral character. The Shield's moral centers (Dutch and Claudette) are still incredibly flawed, and even so, they act as antagonists in the show because we are following Vic and the Strike Team. Even Training Day kept Alonzo at arm's length because we weren't meant to empathize with him or like him, and it's only due to Washington's charisma that we did. It's the same thing with DDL in Gangs of New York: he's a horribly racist, xenophobic thug, but he's compelling because of the actor's charisma, not his actions (and a rather weak co-lead). But The Shield went one step further. The corruption was the focus, and because we were invested in Vic's life, his family, and the way he treated his job, you started out rooting for him to elude justice while meting it out. The question is, when did viewers (if they ever did) turn on Vic himself? More than likely Shawn Ryan saw Training Day was going into production, and managed to get a greenlight for his own Rampart based TV show because a big movie studio greenlit a film with an A-list movie star. Nobody ever accused Hollywood of being original, but Training Day was a hot spec script for years. Would a TV network had taken a chance on The Shield if they didn't know a studio back, A-list starring movie of essentially the same material was coming. Got my doubts. But Ryan had way more than 7 months to do his TV version. The Sopranos was a game changer because it focused on the neurosis of an Italian-American mobster. What made The Sopranos stand out from being some TV rip-off of Goodfellas, was the integral interaction between Tony and Dr Melfi. It was a complete subversion of the genre. This tough guy mob boss having panic attacks and needing a shrink. I never gave The Shield that much deep thought to be honest. i thought it was a well acted, well made compelling thriller series that I gave up after a few seasons, but there just wasn't enough of a hook for me to consider it particularly original. But if you rate it that high, then I'm happy for you. You didn't finish The Shield? It's the rarest of rare gems: a seven-season series that actually got better as it went along, and the last three seasons rate (to me) as the greatest end run of any series in history. Sure, Training Day might have been a hot spec script, but even with Washington's involvement, it's unlikely they had any idea that Washington's performance (which completely inverted audience expectations of him; people might have thought Denzel was playing a Jake Hoyt type on paper because he hadn't really delved into villains before) would have the effect it did. I'm willing to bet that whatever debt Shawn Ryan owes to it, if any, is minimal at best. The Rampart scandal was fertile ground for great stories, and the preceding decade or so of police history (Rodney King, OJ, etc.) really painted a different picture of police departments in general and the LAPD in particular. L.A. Confidential was the first to really capitalize on it in a mainstream way ( Bad Lieutenant was still far too much of a cult film). Hell, Training Day is pretty much a James Ellroy story with a modern flair.
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Post by Viced on Jun 26, 2018 21:24:09 GMT
Even though I'd agree it's one of the all-time greats, I think it helped to codify the Golden Age rather than ushering it in. Breaking Bad benefited from shows that came before it because shows like The Sopranos and Deadwood wrote the formula on having villainous protagonists, and Gilligan himself learned from working on The X-Files how to hone his craft and knowing that mythology-reliant series needed a proper course to adhere to. It's still a vitally essential show worthy of all of its acclaim, but it built its empire on the backs of those that came before it. With that said, I'd also like to nominate The Shield. The first time (as far as I can recall) where we saw the true gritty brutality of law enforcement and the corruption it engenders on a personal level, rather than the sweeping Dickensian lens we saw in The Wire. I like The Shield a lot, and it was a great show. But I saw absolutely nothing innovative in it. To me, it was literally Training Day: The TV series. With Michael Chiklis as Denzel/Alonzo. It literally premiered about 7 months after Training Day made a splash. Not a coincidence. Good show, but basically just adapted a movie. Training Day deserves the credit for being a game changer in the cop genre, in both film and TV. It's not comparable to something like The Wire, which did not just feel like some adapted movie spin-off. You can't be serious. The Shield has nothing in common with Training Day outside of it being about a dirty cop in LA. To write off a seven season, 80-something episode series as a Training Day ripoff is just ludicrous. The Shield is unquestionably one of the most innovative shows of the last 20 years. It was FX's first original drama series (and they're now arguably the most acclaimed network out there) and the first "prestige drama" on basic cable. Vic Mackey shooting another cop in the face IN THE FIRST EPISODE OF THE SERIES was undoubtedly a game changer. Go watch the rest of it and then we'll see what you have to say.
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Post by stephen on Jun 26, 2018 21:35:34 GMT
I like The Shield a lot, and it was a great show. But I saw absolutely nothing innovative in it. To me, it was literally Training Day: The TV series. With Michael Chiklis as Denzel/Alonzo. It literally premiered about 7 months after Training Day made a splash. Not a coincidence. Good show, but basically just adapted a movie. Training Day deserves the credit for being a game changer in the cop genre, in both film and TV. It's not comparable to something like The Wire, which did not just feel like some adapted movie spin-off. You can't be serious. The Shield has nothing in common with Training Day outside of it being about a dirty cop in LA. To write off a seven season, 80-something episode series as a Training Day ripoff is just ludicrous. The Shield is unquestionably one of the most innovative shows of the last 20 years. It was FX's first original drama series and the first "prestige drama" on basic cable. Vic Mackey shooting another cop in the face IN THE FIRST EPISODE OF THE SERIES was a game changer. Go watch the rest of it and then we'll see what you have to say. Indeed. The way that The Shield's pilot episode was set up, you were led to believe that Terry Crowley was going to be a co-lead, a lawful "good guy" to infiltrate the corrupt unit led by Mackey, and that he would be the moral center of the show. Then that last scene happens, and you realize, fuck, we're in uncharted waters. And setting aside a bit of a stumble in Season 3, the show never flagged.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 26, 2018 21:53:58 GMT
Maybe it's the marketing for The Shield that prejudiced me. I remember it around the time it came out, and it seemed heavily marketed on the premise of "if you liked Training Day, you'll love this show". And TD was constantly mentioned in reviews of The Shield (at least in the early season).
So yeah, I'm possibly not the best judge, especially since I didn't even finish the show. But I'll take people's word for it that it was more original and groundbreaking than I gave it credit for. I may even find time to watch the last couple of seasons.
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Post by stephen on Jun 26, 2018 22:02:15 GMT
Maybe it's the marketing for The Shield that prejudiced me. I remember it around the time it came out, and it seemed heavily marketed on the premise of "if you liked Training Day, you'll love this show". And TD was constantly mentioned in reviews of The Shield (at least in the early season). So yeah, I'm possibly not the best judge, especially since I didn't even finish the show. But I'll take people's word for it that it was more original and groundbreaking than I gave it credit for. I may even find time to watch the last couple of seasons. I mean, that's just marketing. That has no bearing on the show itself. Give it another watch, especially now that we are so far removed from its original air date and you have the benefit of hindsight. Vic Mackey stands as one of the greatest television characters, and certainly ranks as one of the greatest portrayals of police corruption in modern media. Hell, viewing it through the lens of Training Day isn't necessarily a bad thing; think of what Washington could've done with the material given to Chiklis and marvel. In my all-time television win roster, both of my favorite supporting male/female performances come from The Shield. And as said before, those last three seasons are the most high-octane, shattering hours of consecutive TV I've ever seen. I adore The Wire. I consider it the greatest series of all time. But it's Dickensian; it focuses on the city at large and while it shows individuals at their highest and lowest, it mostly deals with the corruption of Baltimore's soul via the drug trade and the politics. The Shield is its Shakespearean flip-side; it focuses on the rise and fall of a few, but you see how their machinations and manipulations bring ruin onto the heads of an entire city. I've pimped it enough, and yet I don't feel I could do it justice. Just give it another go. Worst case scenario, you're mightily entertained. Best case, you rate it as highly as we do.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Jun 27, 2018 0:48:14 GMT
I know a lot of people here don't want to hear it, but Breaking Bad was probably the catalyst that pushed TV into where it is now. Why? It came after shows like The Sopranos, Oz and The Wire, which already took an innovative, almost longform novel approach to TV drama. Breaking Bad was a great show, but it came on the heels of the shows I mentioned. Mad Men is the same, as is Game Of Thrones. They were the first wave of beneficiaries, not the originators of the golden age of TV. To me, shows post-BB started having their own style that was different from TV before it and almost cinematic in quality. I'm terrible at putting stuff like this into words, but while stuff like The Sopranos and whatnot came before it-- they were all filmed and staged like TV shows. Obviously better than the likes of Law & Order, Lost, etc where you have high quality-- there's still the element of "we have 44 minutes and X amount of commercials, so we're gonna have a huge beat here and a huge beat there and a 'coming next week' there!". Again, I'm terrible at putting thoughts like these into words but I feel like BB changed the game on the mainstream where while it's still television, you can still have your own distinct style to what your doing which I think a lot more shows now are doing than they were before. That's not to downplay the importance of other shows (Larry Sanders changed the game entirely even before the golden age, NYPD Blue and Homicide: Life on the Streets basically paved the way for all the good cop shows, The Sopranos probably perfected caring about characters that were downright horrible people, etc. etc. etc.). I just think BB turned all that good TV into something more than even that. (also, for the record, The Shield is probably my number two show... and the comparisons to Training Day make me want to vomit)
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Post by Viced on Jun 27, 2018 1:29:23 GMT
theycallmemrfish I get what you're saying, but The Sopranos was incredibly cinematic!!! It certainly wasn't filmed like a TV show and tons of episodes almost work as standalone little movies. I'd say much earlier that Miami Vice could be pretty damn cinematic too... If anything, I think Breaking Bad is noteworthy for the fact that it kind of ended the era of antihero shows. Now the concept just seems stale for the most part because BB seemed to do everything that possibly could've been done with the concept.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jun 30, 2018 17:44:40 GMT
I think Oz should get some points, if only for the fact the it ushered in the era of hour long HBO Drama brilliance. Also, had it not gone of the boil so badly in it's last two Seasons, it would rate as highly with me as The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and others. Wasn't it also the first mainstream show to feature full-frontal male nudity? God what an edgy show. I have fond memories of it but if I watched it again I'm pretty sure it would come off feeling like garden variety misery porn. It dealt with real issues to be sure, but it always tried to do it in the most outrageous and shocking ways possible, which undermined its credibility a little in the end, and made it feel kind of cheap. But I did love those first few seasons when I first saw them. And yes those last two seasons were dreadful. It's super depressing when a good show loses its way and the bad ending overshadows the rest. (R.I.P. Dexter)
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