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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 18, 2019 10:09:22 GMT
Well he's a guy I'd say is one of those rare actors of that time - along with Cagney - that was infusing a psychological component in his acting really early - in the 30s - and it's definitely in my favorite stuff of his: Scarlet Street, Little Caesar, All My Sons, Double Indemnity even though most of those are later - he had it early on too. I often say when I am being negative towards actors - I'll accuse them of just being line readers without understanding subtext or anything beyond just the scene they are playing......at his best Robinson used subtext and backstory almost like a later Actors Studio etc. person would later incorporate. I'd mention 2 others but not for him so much (though he's quite good in each) but the films - House of Strangers an ensemble piece which to me is like what The Godfather would have been like if it was a nicer movie that did what you expected it to do/family melodrama and with Richard Conte too. That's an interesting movie I think but so is Nightmare which is not great but is one I have a whole pet theory about for updating noir where you can replace a plot angle with something more modern (social media) and it could work now...........maybe work far better too. That one really I think is a huge missed opportunity - they remake Little Women, A Star Is Born etc. but don't think to remake noir because they say well Nightmare is too hokey to work now (because we're so sophisticated and smart I guess. Sarcasm.) but that's why you remake it and think through it. They don't think anything is going on in the world now that seems "noirish" when actually, of course, it's forever, all noir all the time
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 18, 2019 13:35:02 GMT
Yesterday I made a joke that everyone should go back to page 1 of this thread. On page 1, the very first post mentioned John Gielgud who like Olivier, is a name that transcends acting and is synonymous with "great actor". A theater titan - as a director too - and Shakespearean genius famed for his voice and mastery of language - he was for many Olivier's only true stage rival. He won the EGOT (although his Tony for acting was a non-competitive win) and was very memorable in films and TV including his comic gem Arthur - his BSA Oscar winning role - especially in his later years. When he (and his career) was threatened with a sex scandal about his homosexuality - the theater audiences rallied on his behalf. They rewarded him with love and understanding and Gielgud rewarded us all with a staggering 70 year career of remarkable craft and artistry.
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Post by TerryMontana on Jun 18, 2019 16:17:47 GMT
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 18, 2019 21:30:35 GMT
Well he wasn't actually covered - he was just listed so it made sense. Some actors do get covered multiple times if things change too - Bryan Cranston winning a 2nd Tony this year for example was a huge deal imo so we went back to him and updated the discussion and stuff like that.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 19, 2019 10:34:04 GMT
We covered De Niro who has been criticized by some for not doing theater (only once) and we did John Gielgud who completely mastered it. Across all actors, that's a big argument and has come up on the board but hasn't come up much in this thread (a little indirectly on page 9) so let's concentrate on it specifically here:
Must all actors even do theater anyway - does it matter?
I still believe that it does - but on some level I now understand not doing stage work or especially walking away from it. While I do think it's at least necessary to try I will let the great Anthony Hopkins - a GOAT level UK actor - articulate why he walked away from the theater and it's fascinating to hear this - and why many film greats either walked away from it or never went to the stage at all.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 19, 2019 21:23:59 GMT
...........and I also wanted to include Michael Caine here who did some theater though not a great amount who gives you some great tips on how to act on film here (mostly) - at the end he's talking rather brilliantly about playing drunk and playing someone crying - really good stuff and the kind of things you don't often see actors discuss.
I always loved how can would talk about "how" he acts specifically - by making it less mysterious he makes it more understandable and less about his life or his personality and more directly on the work. A lot of actors hate to discuss acting like this but I love hearing him talk about it in this way.
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Post by Mattsby on Jun 19, 2019 22:07:33 GMT
Love that Caine vid..... especially his specifics on blinking, which is a part of performances I can obsess over. I was just telling a friend a few days ago how too much blinking can be disastrous... like Billy Zane in Dead Calm. Or the lack of blinking, how that's often so effective - Hopkins in Lambs a top example, and I wonder if Hopkins ever broached the subject like Caine here since he's such a great eye actor. There's the Walter Murch book In the Blink of an Eye that talks about the value of a good blink - and you'll love this example pacinoyes Murch singles out The Conversation as the chief example with Hackman whose blinking completely almost spookily "naturally aligned" with his cutting. Also the left-right-left-right eye movements can be bothersome, unless it was PSH who'd do it - has he been talked about in this thread??
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Post by Mattsby on Jun 19, 2019 22:30:26 GMT
I myself prefer seeing the actor not having them "disappear" in the role - rather than the actor "become the character" I prefer to have them meet in the middle where I am aware of the actor and not, aware of the character and not. But if this thread has taught us anything it's that there are all kinds of actors and performances and what works for one doesn't work for all. I don't prefer one or the other, but - and this is sort of in the discussion - I often want to see one do the other. It depends on the actor too really, and where they're at in their careers. Few examples: I kinda wanna see Gosling tackle a really out there character, to "disappear" just to see what that would look like. For all the Brando comparison talk with him he hasn't proved to be nearly as daring or exotic in his choices (since 2010, imo). On the other hand.... Sacha Baron Cohen who is and has been insanely hilarious... I've been dying to see him take a straight serious role. Apparently we're getting that in a miniseries The Spy for Netflix soon so that's exciting. But I've wanted for years now to see him in a role like Sellers' in Hoffman, something like that.... speaking of which.... Peter Sellers hasn't been talked about in this thread yet!! He actually first comes to mind when discussing disappearing. An absolute master at it, which he was able to do in broader comedic roles as well as without the frills in smaller more "regular" type roles - I'm All Right Jack, Never Let Go, The Blockhouse, etc and then there's ("reality betrays us all") Hoffman - the rumors as to why he tried to quell the release was that he showed too much of himself. But it wasn't just the look and accent with Sellers, in the way he changed cadence and physicality thru demeanor to convey a total character tone, it's uncanny and unrivaled. And he rarely clashed with the projects, unlike some of the sloppier attempts from Welles for example who couldn't resist the theatric and potential deception of acting/appearances (he said: "the Camera doesn't make understatement obligatory") - and I really love Welles, who has mastered the "disappearing" (Kane, the clip I posted earlier in this thread, etc) but also sometimes forced the makeup where it's kind of distracting (the Chabrol) - but his style and unmistakable presence was a different thing than Sellers so they're strange to compare anyway. (brought to you by: Coffee)
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 19, 2019 23:29:14 GMT
As a sort of catch all reply PSH was covered sort of early on in the first couple pages but he certainly could use an update like Gielgud got and I could say some things about him that weren't covered about seeing him onstage. I've made a note! Great comments on Murch and Cohen/Welles/Gosling/Sellers (!) - that thing about disappearing - acting from the inside vs. outside - sort of gets into film iconography too (or God forbid actor "branding" - haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate that term). In movies at a certain point I always say you run out of tricks (20 roles? 40? 70?) and at a certain point if you are "disappearing" too much you are not defining yourself at the same time. The biggest actors say in our GOAT poll were not disappearing/transformative types for the most part but you can sometimes do it and get big (Oldman for one). At a certain point it's a risk to try one or the other even whereas once it wasn't that way and you had more leeway depending age/role/level of fame. Would you cast say a 35 year old DiCaprio as Frankenstein's monster? It's the catch-22 of acting, you act to get famous (in a way) and by getting famous you lose some aspects of your very creative abilities too (in a way).
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 20, 2019 11:26:06 GMT
Today a new actor not covered prior, one that gave a recent performance I adore too - yet another UK actor in his late 50s - Peter Mullan.
Mullan sadly doesn't do much stage work now though he did when he started out and he is just aces on film and especially TV. I love his performance on TV in The Fear - more than that piece itself actually - as a mobster dealing with early onset dementia he was positively Shakespearean in conveying his character's full arc.
Top Of The Lake, Ozark, Westworld (and more) on TV and star of films for Ken Loach among others - he is always fascinating the very second you see him in everything. His gravitas is somewhat amazing - you watch everything Mullan does, very closely in every role big or small. A big stage role would be just perfect for him right about now ..........finding the time to do it well.......that might be difficult.
A trailer for The Fear:
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 20, 2019 16:56:46 GMT
Actually as a followup, I just learned his current show - the very popular Mum with Lesley Manville is finishing its run now so maybe he does have time for that play afterall
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Post by stephen on Jun 20, 2019 17:15:36 GMT
Pacinoyes, make The Vanishing a priority if you haven't already. It's Peter Mullan at his absolute peak -- and that is saying something.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 21, 2019 11:03:09 GMT
We've covered some major actresses of color - Viola Davis, Audra McDonald, Cynthia Erivo (in anticipation of a breakthrough year?), Cicely Tyson, Sophie Okonedo and somewhat (on page 9) today's person but only in passing: Alfre WoodardNot much in theater later but a play and her performance in the filmed version of it served as a big deal for her - For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When the Rainbow Is Enuf - somewhat now a strangely forgotten play a bit. She then moved on from theater mostly and was major on TV - especially in NBC prestige drama in the 80s - Hill Street Blues, LA Law, St. Elsewhere and then later to quality cable productions - a multiple Emmy winner. In film an Oscar nomination for Cross Creek and several meaningful roles she likely just missed for (Passion Fish, Grand Canyon). In many ways reminiscent of Cicely Tyson in that she is held in high esteem by critics, peers, audiences alike and she continues to thrive on TV too. There is a certain regal quality in her at the same she can play across type and genre too.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 22, 2019 10:32:42 GMT
Woodard reminded me of a male of color we've not covered yet (surprisingly) - we've talked a lot around Denzel Washington (though missing mostly TV (albeit St. Elsewhere) for now), James Earl Jones - a clear US GOAT contender in this thread - and the very talented Jeffrey Wright, Chiwetel Ejiofor among others covered.......but today's actor evokes all of those other guys in a way - Laurence Fishburne
A Tony and two time Emmy winner and Oscar nominee (What's Love Got To Do With It) he is also winningly funny on the TV show Blackish currently. His film career includes its fair share of classics across genres (Apocalypse Now, The Matrix, Boyz In The Hood). He's very committed to the theater world and theater on film - he even showed up to honor Pacino for his Kennedy Center Honor a few years back by performing a scene from Shakespeare - and in the clip below Othello, memorably with Kenneth Branagh as Iago.
Not yet 60 you could picture him doing more good work over the next decade.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 23, 2019 11:40:22 GMT
Albert Finney, Tom Courtenay, Alan Alda, Alfred Molina. Some big names there and what do they have in common? Well one of the things is they were in the casts when Art - arguably the most famous modern play that's yet to be filmed opened in the UK and then the US. We've talked about things actors didn't do all the time - retiring from acting or not doing TV or stage work - but what about when the medium prevents them from even trying it at all? Art is a play written in French then translated to English that became and is a very big deal (it won the Olivier and Tony) and big money too. The plot concerns 3 friends and their arguing, projecting and eventually falling out about a blank canvas or "white painting" one has bought. It is over 20 years old now and there has been no revival on Broadway and no plans to film it as far as I'm aware - at least not in English (?) - and because of that it is less remembered than Angels in America say from the same general era. If I recall correctly, the playwright Yasmina Reza doesn't want it to be filmed that way although IMDB lists versions of it (which may just be filmed plays(?)). A work that could have been a very major filmed event - and a feather in the cap of many actors - imagine how the piece changes if you add race or age or even gender into casting (which is already inherent in the piece but not overtly shown). Albert Finney and Tom Courtenay from the original UK production:
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 24, 2019 10:15:25 GMT
So, with the Art play in mind we concentrate today on an actor, still living at 82, who has been genuinely great over decades - Tom Courtenay.Courtenay is a major figure in British kitchen sink dramas and just think of the mind-boggling UK actors in HIS era - Finney, Caine, Connery, Bates, Williamson, Hopkins, McKellen, O'Toole, Harris and more - choosing best among that group is tougher than Washington/Hanks/Bridges/Dafoe in the "US actors in their 60s age class" I can tell you that much An actor who pops ups in several 60s touchstone films - Billy Liar, The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner, Dr. Zhivago - he essentially left film (though not entirely) to concentrate on stage in the 70s/80s and much of the 90s. Though he did come roaring back in the 80s and recreated his acclaimed The Dresser stage role for film - and pops up almost always marvelously from time to time. Two time Oscar nominee and Tony nominee - limited but significant and awarded TV work in the UK (and internationally in all media) - he is in some ways a pacinoyes personal favorite - often underrated yet highly lauded too, an absolute master of his craft and The Loneliness Of The Long Distance Runner and Let Him Have It (1991) being personal film performances I often champion of his. From 45 Years, exceptional as usual:
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Post by Mattsby on Jun 25, 2019 1:25:44 GMT
I luv Courtenay........ his history and working relationship with Finney is great, both trained at the same school, handing off Billy Liar, and then The Dresser, A Rather English Marriage, Art. That'd be a good add-on to this thread: actors who've worked together across film/stage/tv. As for his perfs - A Rather English Marriage is the only TV project I've seen, though it's been years. He's great there, Finney too... and it really complements The Dresser how they depend on each other and the implied difference of stature btwn them. The Dresser is tremendously written and acted, whereas Marriage feels much smaller but no less poignant. It's upbeat too, ultimately, with their odd couple rapport and the beautiful ending, them dancing together. Billy Liar his perf is spritely and hilarious-- talking to empty chairs and objects, changing his voice, getting caught in his flights of fantasy. There are some sudden emotional scenes like one with his father, but mostly he's sort of pleasantly offbeat and unpredictable, rushed by romantic pratfalls, dazed and rapt and bothered. Like when he finds a lost bunch of calenders he was supposed to have sold and now as evidence has to hide them. And then... to do Doctor Zhivago where he's a lot more tightly wound, a pretty subtle perf and a difficult role, scarred, lovestruck, kinda shy yet motivated, and then we have to buy him later as notorious, unfeeling, and fearsome. Looking at Courtenay's IMDb..... he's done more onscreen projects in the 2010s than any other decade, which I guess makes sense, doing less theater, but also he's into his 80s! Keep it up, lad....
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jun 25, 2019 5:13:15 GMT
Has Dirk Bogarde been mentioned yet? One of England's finest. His performance in Victim took a level of courage unrivaled by anything else at the time. It's a staggering thing to even consider: a closeted gay man taking on the role of a closeted gay man in a film that's entirely dedicated to this character's struggle to comes to terms with himself, and all this at a time when homosexuality was still illegal in the UK. It goes beyond polemic (and in some ways the film certainly shows its age) because the realization that Bogarde likely grappled with everything we see his character grappling with onscreen gives the film and his performance an entirely new dimension.
And then there's his work with Losey (The Servant, King & Country, Accident) and the underrated Darling, which features excellent supporting turns from both him and Laurence Harvey (the latter at his most debonair). Need to see more of the man, but everything I've seen so far has been exceptional.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 25, 2019 10:19:42 GMT
Has Dirk Bogarde been mentioned yet? One of England's finest. His performance in Victim took a level of courage unrivaled by anything else at the time. It's a staggering thing to even consider: a closeted gay man taking on the role of a closeted gay man in a film that's entirely dedicated to this character's struggle to comes to terms with himself, and all this at a time when homosexuality was still illegal in the UK. It goes beyond polemic (and in some ways the film certainly shows its age) because the realization that Bogarde likely grappled with everything we see his character grappling with onscreen gives the film and his performance an entirely new dimension. And then there's his work with Losey (The Servant, King & Country, Accident) and the underrated Darling, which features excellent supporting turns from both him and Laurence Harvey (the latter at his most debonair). Need to see more of the man, but everything I've seen so far has been exceptional. Bogarde is a great pick and he ties into a pet theory on actor peers and generational actor rivalries. A member of the class before Courtenay's - that 1950s class - that included fewer members in comparison to the 60s - but it was also a generation that felt pressured by WWII and its after effects and changing social standards and those pressures literally resulted in Bogarde's post-matinee idol career. Victim was 1961, the arrest/scandal of Gielgud for homosexual activity (see above) I believe was in the early 50s - so enough time had gone by where different things could be covered in film too. Richard Burton and Paul Scofield the two best actors of that 50s group imo were primarily theater actors who used the theater in career ways Bogarde didn't - he did a little at the start but stopped (and had stage fright as well). So he had no problem being a matinee idol in the 50s which Burton sort of was too but hated so he immediately started doing roles for money and in a way he invented doing that. Scofield had his theater but not much prior in film until Man For All Seasons (and not much after though he was always great). Bogarde therefore had a huge opportunity in the 60s to do things those two better actors could not either due to lack of movie fame (Scofield) or too much fame in general (Burton). He took advantage of that and had a whole 2nd career with things like Victim, The Servant, Accident, Our Mother's House. What's more it translated internationally in Death in Venice and Despair - you could never picture Burton in either of those roles because by then he had in effect typecast himself and Scofield wasn't as much interested in things that deviated much from "filmed theater". Bogarde rather moved effortlessly across roles with some TV work too though he passed away before he could do much there. He's a very interesting actor indeed and a clear example of a guy for whom his name means several different things and who if you go back and watch some his films - you can read much subtext into - not merely a sexual subtext but also themes of class, power dynamics, loss of self and self-will. For several directors he was a perfect sort of canvas to work in tandem with them to convey those themes.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 26, 2019 10:07:54 GMT
Following up on Mattsby 's intriguing question - today's topic actors who've worked together across film/stage/tv. I think this pops up but not so much across "great" actors in all 3 mediums. As far as I can tell - aside from married couples (Ossie Davis/Ruby Dee, Hume Cronyn/Jessica Tandy) it's hard to find many major ones here - I think Finney/Courtenay may indeed be the best example - although Olivier being the God-King of this thread gets this TWICE naturally with Gielgud and especially his acting partner in crime Ralph Richardson. There's plenty of examples with actors missing one medium (ie Irons/Close or Streep/Kidman) or two actors of not close enough equal footing appearing together (Pacino and John Goodman have done all 3 mediums together) to really match the big names above. Generally nowadays, with TV and film more resembling each other, theater is the big stumbling block except of course all the guys mentioned Finney, Courtenay, Olivier, Richardson, Gielgud generally had theater covered more easily and it was TV that was more of the hurdle for them. Below, Olivier as Dick 3 and Richardson as Buckingham from the 1955 film version:
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 27, 2019 10:35:09 GMT
Look, this thread as wonderful as it is, is going to fall short of covering everyone or fully explaining them - we haven't even covered all the triple crown of acting winners. Today's person is a triple crown winner but what that means and what it meant in her lifetime are two different things - Anne Bancroft.
Bancroft won back to back BA Tony's - very rare - then converted one of those into a BA Oscar too (The Miracle Worker) and was highly respected by colleagues and peers. She returned to the stage from time to time, continued on in big films (The Graduate, The Turning Point) and much success on TV as well. Bancroft is sometimes forgotten however because if you check her career after The Graduate - well, it's awfully thin for almost a decade. That's because careers didn't necessarily go from strength to strength - especially then - which is one reason comparing actors across generations is a fools game.
Still Bancroft made her mark in her own way and her career has enough great detours in it aside from the big films (Graduate, Miracle Worker) to make viewing her work as a whole extremely rewarding too. Here's a clip from Agnes of God where she has to go (somewhat improbably) from polite to funny to cold and intimidating in a very quick span. A BA nominated performance:
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 28, 2019 11:13:02 GMT
Today's actor I think may have the biggest disconnect between his name, matching the name to the face and the level of his talent. Yet another US fine actor in his 60s - he has an Oscar and recent Tony nomination in lead and I can't recall ever seeing him be "off" in anything either - Chris Cooper. I remember at first watching Cooper in Breach - a role that I thought Al Pacino could have killed when he was lost in the career abyss of 88 Minutes (shudder) and by the end of that performance literally saying to my friend that I didn't think he could improve Cooper's work - and that's some pretty high praise for me. A very fine film career (why don't we discuss Lone Star more on here?) an Emmy nomination that could have easily been a win (though he could have more TV work there) and long stage career over his entire body of work. He's similar to some other actors we've covered here - Tommy Lee Jones for one I'd say, but there's something winningly elusive and unique about him too.
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Post by stephen on Jun 28, 2019 14:14:52 GMT
Cooper is the consummate "disapproving blue-collar dad" in cinema. He is indeed very TLJ-esque, especially when one remembers one of Cooper's finest early roles: that of the hapless sheriff July Johnson in Lonesome Dove, which has an awful lot of Ed Tom Bell in him (and obviously, Jones is also in Lonesome Dove). Breach is fantastic and he'd probably rate really highly in my lineups if it came out in a year other than 2007.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 29, 2019 11:17:52 GMT
This thread is very nice to stage actors - too nice maybe. Today's example is a case in point - Roy Scheider. He had a hot film career had just given an arguable GOAT level performance in All That Jazz - had co-starred in big films Jaws, Klute, French Connection. From that career peak in 1979 he went immediately back to the stage (US premier of Betrayal) and promptly lost whatever heat he had - when he returned to film it wasn't the same. Late in his career he did memorable TV turns - episodic TV and series TV even. But when people say nice things about actors who go onstage - especially US actors - they gloss over the twists and turns and risks of managing a career. Even a career with a performance the caliber of All That Jazz included. The US cast of Betrayal - 1980 - Raul Julia, Blythe Danner and Scheider.
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Post by TerryMontana on Jun 29, 2019 13:43:55 GMT
I don't know about his stage work but his movie career back in the 70s was admirable (Klute, All that Jazz, The French Connection, Jaws, Marathon Man). He didn't do good after this decade. He deserved better than being in just three memorable movies (Naked Lunch, Romeo is Bleeding, The Rainmaker) in 20-25 years. Very very talented guy. He could have been among the best ever if he continued his 70s streak.
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