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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 7, 2018 16:50:48 GMT
The ones I'm referring to are those plus Dustin Hoffman, Jack Nicholson, Gene Hackman, Robert Duvall, Sean Penn, Tom Hanks, Denzel Washington and the directors I'm referring to are in the subject line + the Coens, + Soderbergh + Fincher.
Does anyone else find it odd - that those actors, the ones 60-80, the most acclaimed US actors, didn't much work with any of those acclaimed directors except DeNiro in Jackie Brown and Pacino in Oceans 13, Penn in The Game? Maybe I'm missing something besides this supporting stuff and Hanks in The Ladykillers? It just seems so.............small.
I'm trying to keep it Americans here - so the actors over 60+ and the most acclaimed American directors to emerge after they became stars of the last 25-30 years (any disputes on those top 5 I listed?)
I mean it's kind of surprising when you think of it - how those actors didn't find a way into many films by these guys, and those guys cast older actors too - Philip Baker Hall, Jason Robards, Sam Jackson, Macy, Kurt Russell, etc. They looked to other guys, or British leads or what have you, but isn't a bit odd to have this sort of seismic gap between our artists?
Like I know why they haven't worked together, and sure there's a side of this that's the actors fault (big time) - maybe don't want to be bothered/pushed, and too busy cashing paychecks but does this bother anyone else that your fave actors don't much work with the guys that could maximize them? It even applies to other guys in a way..........Warren Beatty passing on Boogie Nights.....etc.
That the "events" for these actors are the even older directors - Scorsese, Eastwood.......
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Post by stephen on Jan 7, 2018 17:01:43 GMT
A lot of it comes down to the fact that these guys were all well-established by the time these younger directors were coming up, and there is almost certainly an intimidation factor that goes into it. But I think that by the 1990s, most of the big guns of the 1970s had either become lazy, were phasing themselves out, had reputations for being difficult, or simply didn't want to work with perceived unknown quantities in guys like PTA or Tarantino on small indie projects that likely weren't bankable. That's why they reached out to the likes of Harvey Keitel or Philip Baker Hall; great talents who never enjoyed the peaks of greatness afforded to their peers and who were working actors happy to get a paycheck. It also is significant to point out that a lot of these directors have their own "stables" of reliable actors they work with, and many of them are actors they idolized (PTA, for example, loved Hall's work with Altman, and it's likely how he also got hooked up with Julianne Moore; Wes Anderson was a massive Bill Murray fan from way back).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2018 17:13:31 GMT
these directors are pretty particular about their casting though, not being the kind of ones who would cast a prestige name just for the hell of it, regardless of how it would affect their films. to me, other than maybe deniro in reynolds' role in boogie nights and pacino in some fincher film, none of them really seem suited for any of the characters in their films. it has to do more with typecasting, of being a "mafia guy" for bobby d and pacino, of being the "nice everybody guy" for hanks, of them not being in the cast of their films, because it would shift the essence of the story for the audience and they would be distracted and just focus on them and not the story.
hoffman and penn could've escaped it and idk how long the allegations have been against both of them but they simply stopped trying.
won't comment for hackman, duvall since i haven't avidly followed them by any means anyway (that's my bad)
denzel is the most popular of the names you mentioned (other than hanks maybe) so, like bobby d and pacino they would actually avoid casting him, since he would steal the focus for the audience.
but the biggest reason they aren't cast in their films is because there simply aren't parts that would fit their mould, more than the ones who got cast eventually anyway.
also, echoing stephen, these directors mostly already have a crop of actors they are comfortable with and could get more out of than them.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jan 7, 2018 17:25:44 GMT
It's not that surprising to me, nor does it bother me that much because with those filmmakers, it's usually about what's right for the story, not catering to an iconic actor. Most of those directors aren't necessarily looking to tailor films around those acting giants. Those acting giants would still have to service the filmmaker's vision and fit the part. I can't think of a Coen brothers film that Sean Penn or Jack Nicholson would have been right for or better replacements for what they ended up going with.
Sometimes it is the actor's fault. From what I've read, De Niro is pretty demanding when it comes to money and has been that way since establishing Tribeca. I think Warren Beatty would have been perfect for Boogie Nights and turning that down was a mistake, but he's notoriously slow at deciding on a film. He also turned down the part of Bill in the Kill Bill films. I know the Coens and Tarantino also don't want to deal with any difficult actors, which some of them are (Hoffman, Hackman).
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 7, 2018 18:07:31 GMT
Good answers and discussion but I'm not so sure, I buy that the parts didn't always fit because DOR made DeNiro fit in one scene in AH, Pacino had Manglehorm written for him by David Gordon Green - like if he didn't do it, no one would have and that's very rare, TWBB was explicitly written for DDL by PTA.....I know I'm stretching it a bit, but QT, the Coen's, PTA are first writers, so they theoretically make that a priority.
Also, I think sometimes we don't see it, until we see it if you know what I mean.......like when I think of the Coen's, I think these guys don't fit.....and then I think of Michael Lerner, Albert Finney, Newman in Hudsucker, etc. and it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jan 8, 2018 3:11:25 GMT
Good answers and discussion but I'm not so sure, I buy that the parts didn't always fit because DOR made DeNiro fit in one scene in AH, Pacino had Manglehorm written for him by David Gordon Green - like if he didn't do it, no one would have and that's very rare, TWBB was explicitly written for DDL by PTA.....I know I'm stretching it a bit, but QT, the Coen's, PTA are first writers, so they theoretically make that a priority. Also, I think sometimes we don't see it, until we see it if you know what I mean.......like when I think of the Coen's, I think these guys don't fit.....and then I think of Michael Lerner, Albert Finney, Newman in Hudsucker, etc. and it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me. Well, Daniel Day-Lewis is an anomaly totally. PTA can do more things with him at this point, and he knows that he's going to give his all to the extreme, regardless. That's not necessarily true of an aging De Niro. And I can't see the Coens in 1990 or 1991 daring to offer Michael Lerner's sparse role to someone like Jack Nicholson or Nicholson even considering it. He was larger than life by that point and the Coens had some respect, but they weren't who they are today in terms of status. Sure Newman pushing-70 was game for the boys, but I really think for the most part some of those acting giants would push an early-90s Coen brothers script aside for something else, as crazy as that sounds today. However, I still think they need to snatch up Robert Duvall. But again, it would have to be a role he fits just as the iconic Tommy Lee Jones was cast because he fit his part perfectly. |
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Post by Mattsby on Jan 8, 2018 20:49:07 GMT
Interesting that Pacino, since ’00, has worked with better “younger” filmmakers (Nolan, Soderbergh, DGG) over these guys—
Nicholson (Payne)
Hoffman (Baumbach)
De Niro (DOR?)
—considering how often (very often) I think to myself ‘Pacino should work with better directors!’
Basically I think every director who isn’t doing what DGG did with Pacino/Manglehorn is committing a federal crime. Quality of that film aside, DGG met with Pacino and said ‘let’s do something together’ (I’m sure this is said constantly between everybody in the industry) but then he followed thru, put together a script, presented it to Pacino, worked on it, put the pieces together, etc.
I don’t wanna say that filmmakers are undervaluing the legends (those pacinoyes mentioned, and more) but it really does seem so rare for a younger filmmaker (age below 60? 50?) to create a project around these legendary A Listers...
QT recently said how badly he wanted to work with Pacino. Now he's casting his ensemble Hollywood pic, is there a role for Pacino? Why wouldn't there be??
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 13, 2018 1:23:35 GMT
Man, I just read about Pacino circling the Tarantino flick - and QT apparently wrote the role for him too. That is exciting and I think Tarantino became taken with Pacino lately in China Doll which was a disaster in some ways for Pacino but towards the end of the run, he seemed to pull it together in the much better 2nd Act.
So that's a role written for him by Mamet that inspired QT here it seems like.
How cool is that?
Hope it comes off and leads to something memorable......
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Post by stephen on Jan 13, 2018 1:55:20 GMT
I don’t wanna say that filmmakers are undervaluing the legends (those pacinoyes mentioned, and more) but it really does seem so rare for a younger filmmaker (age below 60? 50?) to create a project around these legendary A Listers... To be fair, a lot of these guys are pushing eighty, and how many plum parts could there be for them? There's a reason I still think The Irishman is a folly waiting to happen regardless of the innate talent involved. I mean, yeah, every so often you get something great for an elderly actor like The Straight Story or Lucky, but young directors seldom focus on older characters. In general, directors tend to work with their contemporaries in age/generation. |
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Post by Mattsby on Oct 5, 2021 23:56:01 GMT
Bump, fascinating thread. And a collab update........
Denzel - Coens (Macbeth)
Hanks - Wes Anderson (currently filming)
Penn - PTA (Licorice Pizza)
and not quite a superstar (he is in our hearts) but Dafoe coming up with a Wes, Del Toro, Yorgos and Eggers.... the GOATS gotta take note.
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Post by futuretrunks on Oct 6, 2021 1:04:48 GMT
I feel like most of the elite screen actors aren't really serious cinephiles with their own particular taste (in both film and directors), so they're never really "in control" of their career and are battered about by various vicissitudes. There's an element of "I'm not really in control, so I won't even try" to some of our most gifted actors that's basically anathema to someone like Leo. I think Gosling is carving out a fascinating alternative path less reliant on linking up with the most talented directors, but it's still secondary ultimately.
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