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Post by urbanpatrician on Sept 28, 2021 23:29:54 GMT
wow, so these people are saying it's even better than Casino Royale? damn There are 6 Bonds better than Casino Royale, so yes..... it can easily top it.
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Post by countjohn on Sept 29, 2021 0:06:53 GMT
Well I'm 99.9% sure this is not going to be the best Bond film of all time since OHMSS and From Russia With Love already exist and are perfect. Also the fact that a lot of these people are saying they're not Bond fans makes me a little suspicious as well. I'm just hoping for a good, solid film that's a bit better than Spectre. It's been six years, I just want another solid Bond film.
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Sept 29, 2021 0:14:03 GMT
yeah I'm sorry it's not the same thing. Craig is wrong here. You can't create a female character comparable to one that's been established for decades and has its own brand overnight. They should absolutely write good parts for women and women of color but these things aren't mutually exclusive and in the meantime there's no reason to exclude women from a profitable franchise character. We are talking about money, power and influence here, and when Craig in effect says "get your own thing", in practice what that means is excluding women from existing IP and consequently that money, power and influence that doesn't exclude men while at the same time asking them to shoulder the burden of creating franchises and characters worth millions of dollars in an industry that's still heavily male-dominated. In other words, a pretty basic and baldfaced manifestation of patriarchal bias with real-world effects. Misogyny in real time. Why doesn't Daniel Craig create that role. You know, the one that's "just as good [and lucrative] as James Bond, but for a woman"? We're waiting. If you just put a woman in a man's role, you're not solving any problems, you just have a woman playing a man's role. What exactly will benefit women in having one of them being Bond? If it works, you still will have complaints about women not standing on their own, and then if it doesn't, then you just give an argument to the haters.
Besides, I don't think there's any character as associated with masculinity (for better or worse) than Bond, having a woman play him reminds me of the idea for an all female Lord of the Flies...
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 29, 2021 0:48:30 GMT
flasuss Bond is just a fictional character. To see the character as only a man is both artistically limiting (and boring) and unfair, especially given how much the brand of Bond and the character have evolved over the decades. The Bond of 2021 is not the Bond of Fleming's novels or the Bond of the 60s. What would it benefit women? A lot, just starting with the wage gap. Faux female Bonds have been attempted for years now with this recent slew of female-led spy action movies that usually bomb and don't have the financial backing or studio support a Bond project would get (I'm thinking Anna, The Protege, you know what I'm talking about). So what we get is this cycle of female performers essentially ghettoized to these one-off projects. There are now superhero roles for women but there hasn't been a single noteworthy or particularly profitable female equivalent in the action/spy thriller, and you have to wonder to what extent that's because of this resource imbalance. Bond is associated with [stereotypically] masculine traits but most of his attributes as an action star are fairly gender-neutral. No reason the character couldn't be reinterpreted in a creative way. And a female Lord of the Flies sounds great to me IMO. Mean Girls but stranded on an island.
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Post by quetee on Sept 29, 2021 1:07:41 GMT
I wouldn't want a female Bond. I prefer an original character. Or a spin-off character in same universe.
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Sept 29, 2021 1:40:24 GMT
flasuss Bond is just a fictional character. To see the character as only a man is both artistically limiting (and boring) and unfair, especially given how much the brand of Bond and the character have evolved over the decades. The Bond of 2021 is not the Bond of Fleming's novels or the Bond of the 60s. What would it benefit women? A lot, just starting with the wage gap. Faux female Bonds have been attempted for years now with this recent slew of female-led spy action movies that usually bomb and don't have the financial backing or studio support a Bond project would get (I'm thinking Anna, The Protege, you know what I'm talking about). So what we get is this cycle of female performers essentially ghettoized to these one-off projects. There are now superhero roles for women but there hasn't been a single noteworthy or particularly profitable female equivalent in the action/spy thriller, and you have to wonder to what extent that's because of this resource imbalance. Bond is associated with [stereotypically] masculine traits but most of his attributes as an action star are fairly gender-neutral. No reason the character couldn't be reinterpreted in a creative way. And a female Lord of the Flies sounds great to me IMO. Mean Girls but stranded on an island.
By that same token, you can take any fictional female character and make him a man. I'm pretty sure there would be lots of complaints is that was the case. Let's make Katniss and Lady McBeth men, sure that would go well
You also ignore that a) Most male Bond knock-offs fail; b) There's no guarantee a female Bond would be a hit and c) There are already female led franchises, even if they're not the majority. And again, if you take James Bond, and turn into a female, that says nothing about women...except maybe they can only be successful by stealing a man's place and acting like one, hardly a wonderful message.
Also, Lord of the Flies is a criticism of what is today known as toxic masculinity. If you make it with girls, then you lose the entire point.
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Post by stabcaesar on Sept 29, 2021 2:09:11 GMT
By that same token, you can take any fictional female character and make him a man. I'm pretty sure there would be lots of complaints is that was the case. Let's make Katniss and Lady McBeth men, sure that would go well Actually a male Lady Macbeth and a female Macbeth would probably be very cool. I wonder why no one has thought of that. A gay Lady Macbeth could be fun too.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Sept 29, 2021 2:17:40 GMT
Not reading any of the reviews in any depth to avoid spoilers, but as I'm skimming some of the short excerpts on MC and RT, I'm beginning to think a lot of the same people who hated The Last Jedi are going to hate this too lol.
"throws a few surprises in along the way and proves to be an entertaining, affecting and bold finale for Daniel Craig"
"No Time To Die is startling, exotically self-aware"
"This is a Bond film that dutifully ticks all the boxes - but brilliantly, often doesn't feel like a Bond film at all."
"feels reverential and classic... and makes bold choices"
"Even a disappointing villain can’t detract from a bold, satisfying climax to Daniel Craig’s time in the tux"
"But it hits where it counts, and sets up a new chapter for the saga, a blank slate upon which the creatives that come next can paint a new vision for 007"
"Producers Barbara Broccoli and Michael G. Wilson should be applauded for taking so many bold risks. The gosmacking ending, in fact, may be the biggest in Bond history."
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Post by Martin Stett on Sept 29, 2021 3:02:49 GMT
Not reading any of the reviews in any depth to avoid spoilers, but as I'm skimming some of the short excerpts on MC and RT, I'm beginning to think a lot of the same people who hated The Last Jedi are going to hate this too lol. To be fair, I hated TLJ in spite of its deconstructions of the Star Wars mythos. I was totally on board with re-examining SW... but TLJ chickened out and didn't actually provide anything more than surface-level questions. If it had gone the whole way and done a complete takedown of what SW is built on (and if the characters didn't suck and the narrative made any damn sense from a logical standpoint) I'd have been on board. That said, James Bond has been going through a deconstruction phase since Casino Royale. I haven't seen Spectre, but both Solace and Skyfall were very inwardly focused and pondered the role of Bond and M in the modern age. This doesn't sound like it is anything different.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Sept 29, 2021 3:14:32 GMT
Not reading any of the reviews in any depth to avoid spoilers, but as I'm skimming some of the short excerpts on MC and RT, I'm beginning to think a lot of the same people who hated The Last Jedi are going to hate this too lol. That said, James Bond has been going through a deconstruction phase since Casino Royale. I haven't seen Spectre, but both Solace and Skyfall were very inwardly focused and pondered the role of Bond and M in the modern age. This doesn't sound like it is anything different. This is true, though based on how people are describing NTTD, I just get the feeling it might go even further and possibly alienate a certain segment of the fanbase that is more *ahem* traditionalist...
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Post by Martin Stett on Sept 29, 2021 3:28:11 GMT
That said, James Bond has been going through a deconstruction phase since Casino Royale. I haven't seen Spectre, but both Solace and Skyfall were very inwardly focused and pondered the role of Bond and M in the modern age. This doesn't sound like it is anything different. This is true, though based on how people are describing NTTD, I just get the feeling it might go even further and possibly alienate a certain segment of the fanbase that is more *ahem* traditionalist... If it's good, I think those people will be silenced. Fury Road had a very small number of people upset about its "superwomen," but there wasn't much outrage in spite of it being... well, warranted, really. But since Fury Road was so damn good, the whiners were a small minority. It all comes down to quality. TLJ failed on several levels, but the woke level is always easiest to latch onto and mock by people who aren't smart enough to analyze the other problems.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Sept 29, 2021 12:37:12 GMT
flasuss Bond is just a fictional character. To see the character as only a man is both artistically limiting (and boring) and unfair, especially given how much the brand of Bond and the character have evolved over the decades. The Bond of 2021 is not the Bond of Fleming's novels or the Bond of the 60s. What would it benefit women? A lot, just starting with the wage gap. Faux female Bonds have been attempted for years now with this recent slew of female-led spy action movies that usually bomb and don't have the financial backing or studio support a Bond project would get (I'm thinking Anna, The Protege, you know what I'm talking about). So what we get is this cycle of female performers essentially ghettoized to these one-off projects. There are now superhero roles for women but there hasn't been a single noteworthy or particularly profitable female equivalent in the action/spy thriller, and you have to wonder to what extent that's because of this resource imbalance. Bond is associated with [stereotypically] masculine traits but most of his attributes as an action star are fairly gender-neutral. No reason the character couldn't be reinterpreted in a creative way. And a female Lord of the Flies sounds great to me IMO. Mean Girls but stranded on an island. A female led Bond would very likely bomb as well
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Post by quetee on Sept 29, 2021 15:11:53 GMT
flasuss Bond is just a fictional character. To see the character as only a man is both artistically limiting (and boring) and unfair, especially given how much the brand of Bond and the character have evolved over the decades. The Bond of 2021 is not the Bond of Fleming's novels or the Bond of the 60s. What would it benefit women? A lot, just starting with the wage gap. Faux female Bonds have been attempted for years now with this recent slew of female-led spy action movies that usually bomb and don't have the financial backing or studio support a Bond project would get (I'm thinking Anna, The Protege, you know what I'm talking about). So what we get is this cycle of female performers essentially ghettoized to these one-off projects. There are now superhero roles for women but there hasn't been a single noteworthy or particularly profitable female equivalent in the action/spy thriller, and you have to wonder to what extent that's because of this resource imbalance. Bond is associated with [stereotypically] masculine traits but most of his attributes as an action star are fairly gender-neutral. No reason the character couldn't be reinterpreted in a creative way. And a female Lord of the Flies sounds great to me IMO. Mean Girls but stranded on an island. A female led Bond would very likely bomb as well It would bomb hard. I know she's in the MI films but Rebecca Ferguson should have her own spin off.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 29, 2021 17:56:40 GMT
By that same token, you can take any fictional female character and make him a man. I'm pretty sure there would be lots of complaints is that was the case. Let's make Katniss and Lady McBeth men, sure that would go well
You also ignore that a) Most male Bond knock-offs fail; b) There's no guarantee a female Bond would be a hit and c) There are already female led franchises, even if they're not the majority. And again, if you take James Bond, and turn into a female, that says nothing about women...except maybe they can only be successful by stealing a man's place and acting like one, hardly a wonderful message.
Also, Lord of the Flies is a criticism of what is today known as toxic masculinity. If you make it with girls, then you lose the entire point.
Male roles and female roles are not one-to-one comparisons in a world with gender gaps. It's a false equivalence that ignores institutional context. The equivalent of calling affirmative action programs "reverse racism". The point that male Bond knockoffs fail too just increases the stakes of these representation issues because original IPs don't have the level of brand appeal, marketing potential, and studio resources and obviously that affects women more. It would take a miracle for a woman to land a true blockbuster hit in that kind of project, and that also sustains the insidious self-fulfilling prophecy of women not succeeding as action heroes and studios being deterred from financing those kinds of projects. Having a female Bond could throw open those doors and represent an actual commitment to addressing that imbalance. The defeatist idea that something "might not be a hit" is always used as an argument against progress and is often disproven, Black Panther being a recent example of quashing the decades-long truism that black-led superhero movies can't be as profitable. There's no reason a female Bond would have to fail if the studio believed in it and hired talented people that cared about making it work. Re: Lord of the Flies - off-topic and I get what you're saying but I always mainly saw it as an analysis of the potential for cruelty in toxic group dynamics, and IMO that's just as true for women as men. Me personally I never really saw that story as particularly gendered but it has been a damn long time since I read it.
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Post by skibidido on Sept 29, 2021 18:04:43 GMT
Part of the appeal of Bond is his hyper-masculinity. If you remove what people like about the character and try to make it appealing to people who are not fans, then you end up making something that nobody is asking for.
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Sept 29, 2021 18:17:37 GMT
Part of the appeal of Bond is his hyper-masculinity. If you remove what people like about the character and try to make it appealing to people who are not fans, then you end up making something that nobody is asking for. Exactly. There's probably no character more associated with masculinity than Bond, for better or for worse. A female Bond is pretty much a sane Joker or a happy-go-lucky Batman. Or a Superman that breaks people's necks and destroys entire cities...oh, wait.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Sept 29, 2021 21:32:54 GMT
Looks like this will ultimately end up below Casino Royale and Skyfall in terms of critical reception, but it’s great to finally see a Bond actor actually go out on a high note for once (at least among those who did multiple films).
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 29, 2021 22:38:30 GMT
would love to see a list of these "masculine" traits everyone keeps talking about that a woman couldn't possibly possess.
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Sept 29, 2021 22:50:46 GMT
would love to see a list of these "masculine" traits everyone keeps talking about that a woman couldn't possibly possess.
If you watched James Bond movies and didn't understand why the character is a male (of course, most notably in the early movies, but not just then) and why with a woman would be very different, there's nothing much that can be done for you.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Sept 29, 2021 22:52:48 GMT
I'll take a female Bond if it's written by women. James Bond is a male power fantasy and I think there's value to seeing the equivalent female power fantasy for a superspy, not just a female-skinned James Bond.
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Post by countjohn on Sept 30, 2021 2:36:13 GMT
I'll take a female Bond if it's written by women. James Bond is a male power fantasy and I think there's value to seeing the equivalent female power fantasy for a superspy, not just a female-skinned James Bond. That's just a completely different character then, so why not just make one and have it not suck (i.e, not Atomic Blonde)? No reason you can't do that and continue to also have classic Bond movies. Heard someone say one time "this isn't about having their own fun, they want to spoil other people's" which is exactly right. It's not enough to simply have their own character and movies they like, they have to take one from other people and effectively stop movies other people enjoy from being made. This also touches on a reason I'm so against this, there's a 0% chance they'd do it and have the character still act like Bond, and I like the Bond character and want to continue seeing movies with that character. It would be "Strong Female Character tm" Bond who is practically aesexual and has no sense of humor or even a personality like Rey from Star Wars or whoever. Generic action heroes like that are dull whether it's a man or a woman.
I fail to see how any of this is misogynist any more than saying that having, like, a male Wonder Woman is a really dumb idea means you hate men.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Sept 30, 2021 2:41:03 GMT
Pretty easy to do a spin off of a different 00 spy that’s female and have it exist within the same universe.
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Sept 30, 2021 2:53:47 GMT
I'll take a female Bond if it's written by women. James Bond is a male power fantasy and I think there's value to seeing the equivalent female power fantasy for a superspy, not just a female-skinned James Bond. That's just a completely different character then, so why not just make one and have it not suck (i.e, not Atomic Blonde)? No reason you can't do that and continue to also have classic Bond movies. Heard someone say one time "this isn't about having their own fun, they want to spoil other people's" which is exactly right. It's not enough to simply have their own character and movies they like, they have to take one from other people and effectively stop movies other people enjoy from being made. This also touches on a reason I'm so against this, there's a 0% chance they'd do it and have the character still act like Bond, and I like the Bond character and want to continue seeing movies with that character. It would be "Strong Female Character tm" Bond who is practically aesexual and has no sense of humor or even a personality like Rey from Star Wars or whoever. Generic action heroes like that are dull whether it's a man or a woman.
I fail to see how any of this is misogynist any more than saying that having, like, a male Wonder Woman is a really dumb idea means you hate men. Yeah, for example just imagine Casino Royale, in which Bond first sleeps with a minor female character, and then is tortured naked by Le Chiffre, including being hit by a rope in the balls. I'm sure if it was a woman in that role, those scene would play out exactly the same and nobody would say anything.
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Post by Martin Stett on Sept 30, 2021 3:10:37 GMT
By that same token, you can take any fictional female character and make him a man. I'm pretty sure there would be lots of complaints is that was the case. Let's make Katniss and Lady McBeth men, sure that would go well
You also ignore that a) Most male Bond knock-offs fail; b) There's no guarantee a female Bond would be a hit and c) There are already female led franchises, even if they're not the majority. And again, if you take James Bond, and turn into a female, that says nothing about women...except maybe they can only be successful by stealing a man's place and acting like one, hardly a wonderful message.
Also, Lord of the Flies is a criticism of what is today known as toxic masculinity. If you make it with girls, then you lose the entire point. The defeatist idea that something "might not be a hit" is always used as an argument against progress and is often disproven, Black Panther being a recent example of quashing the decades-long truism that black-led superhero movies can't be as profitable. There's no reason a female Bond would have to fail if the studio believed in it and hired talented people that cared about making it work. Black Panther was written as a black character from the ground up. James Bond has been written from the ground up as a suave white man who throws away women when they are of no use to him and is entirely utilitarian in his pursuit of defending the Crown. You can create a female superspy character, but just female-ghostbusting it isn't going to work. You need to have a full vision for what the character is, you can just toss some Bond traits onto her and call it a day. This is why I enjoyed The Rhythm Section, as it attempted to create the character from the ground up. It had flaws, of course - the drug addiction over losing her family is such a cliche that she gets called out for it, the movie was too serious to fill the Bond shoes, and they maybe went a little too far in showing that she is not especially good at her job, although I personally loved that action scenes actually looked like they hurt like hell - but it didn't just force established Bond traits onto her. People appreciate Furiosa because she's a great character in her own right, not because she's FEMALE MAD MAX (the backlash against her major role was small because people did appreciate her). People think Rey is a Mary Sue because she can do anything at all without going through any effort to achieve it, not because she's a woman and we all hate woman-led action films. Remember when Brit Marling spoke about "strong female leads" and got chewed out for it? I defended her, because I believe that underneath her jumbled analogies, she understood something that movie studios don't: that there are other ways to show strength than in the masculine coded ways. If we're going to have a good female action hero, we need one that has been designed as such, not forced into a woman's body with a man's characteristics.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 30, 2021 4:23:37 GMT
Martin Stett literally no one is advocating female-ghosbusting Bond. No one wants that, least of all the people who'd like to see the Bond franchise evolve beyond its limits to accommodate a well-rounded female protagonist. Bond was written as a chauvenistic white man but he's evolved over the years. I keep seeing people allude to Bond traits but those traits are changing and that's a good thing. Hell, the Craig Bond of Casino Royale has more in common with Furiosa than the chauvenistic Bonds of yesteryear and why can't that progression continue? There's no reason a character of that depth can't be written for a female Bond protagonist under a franchise umbrella.
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