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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 11, 2024 19:43:47 GMT
Figured we might as well do this .........because why not...........Bellichick.............Phil Jackson? Hockey.......uh........Glen Sather? College Basketball John Wooden? I think Jackson kind of mastered that Zen act of massaging millionaire egos and what not..........who are the best active coaches............Reid? Tomlin? Should be fun to hear ibbi have a take on Reid........... urbanpatrician in general  |
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LaraQ
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Post by LaraQ on Jul 11, 2024 19:44:59 GMT
Football.Pep Guardiola.No contest.
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dazed
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Post by dazed on Jul 11, 2024 19:58:10 GMT
i always say popovich for nba although i totally get the phil pick (more chips, has the ability to handle huge egos which is one of the greatest skills to have as a successful coach). phils probs the consensus pick for people. shoutout to auerbach too. and spoelstra whose arguably the best coach atm (between him and pop).
steward for boxing. dude had fighters on terrorizing reigns.
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Post by countjohn on Jul 11, 2024 20:13:04 GMT
NFL- Belichick
CFB- Saban (But Bobby Bowden deserves an HM for building that program from nothing in the sport that's the most stacked towards the establishment)
NBA- I'm going to say Pop, his system was a lot more central to the Spurs success than it was for Phil's teams. Not that hard to win with MJ and Pippen and Shaq and Kobe
CBB- In a similar vein Coach K winning 5 in the expanded tournament era is tougher than Wooden winning ten back then, especially since the west regional was usually ass so they really only had two tough games a year in the Final Four.
Feel weird about doing baseball since managers aren't as important as the coaches in these other sports. Tony La Russa always seemed like the smartest to me in terms of in game adjustments and he won WS with two teams. The big Yankee managers (Stengel, McCarthy, Torre) have the most WS but that's a similar deal to Phil and Wooden in basketball where they were doing it with ridiculously stacked teams so not sure how much credit to give them.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Jul 11, 2024 20:15:30 GMT
I also go with Popovich for NBA. Brilliant with lineups (Manu off the bench is a stroke of genius no other coach would do), knows how to develop talent, and great scheming from the "dead ball era" to the free range movement that's now the norm. Phil is better, though, at managing egos (Pop and the Spurs blundered the Kawhi situation) and he's the one who made the triangle a staple of the sport.
For the NFL, it's pretty easily Belichick.
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Post by urbanpatrician on Jul 11, 2024 20:16:24 GMT
Phil Jackson is the greatest basketball coach, by far. I'm a Popovich guy too, but the last 8 years I wonder what he's been doing.
There is no comparison for Phil. Auerbach, maybe ahead of his era for sure, seemed to have a stacked roster and an era of no parity above all. He's like what Geno had at UConn for 20 years prior to like 2016 or something.
Nobody has a beat on team building like Phil does, tho.
An ok center like Luc Longley is used to a more maximum effect under the system of Phil Jackson.
Phil knew that rebounding, amount of possessions, and defense wins the game so he went and grabbed one of the most coachable and multifaceted players of all time Dennis Rodman - he spent his entire career learning defense and playing with a list of defensive coaches, and with the team philosophy and the additional coaching of Jackson, Rodman became newly minted. The team just stacked up to be the greatest team of all time.. and it was with 2 All Stars on the team. Tho Longley and Rodman just did their jobs instead of collect points while Jordan and Pippen provided the payday.
Somehow Phil knew all this was the miraculous thing. And his era had Malone, Olajuwon, ONeal and some serious overgrown giants. Also the Pistons and Knicks who were all stacked in size and physical play in the frontcourt - it was a daunting task each and every night Jordan facing so many gigantic players. LeBron never had to deal with any of that....but still Phil and Mike squeezed 6 championships in 8 years.
I'll get back to you on soccer and football. But I'm more of a players guy with soccer. Maradona, Messi, Zidane, Beckham, and Brazilian Ronaldo....the last 3 were who I was hearing about in my day. And with football, I grew up with the media telling me Mike Holmgren and Mike Shanahan were the goats.
*Edit stop reading what you hear from retrospective ESPN. Phil was way more than managing egos. His roster and team building is above EVERYONE. He knew exactly the pieces he needed for all his championship teams.
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Post by Joaquim on Jul 11, 2024 20:45:59 GMT
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Post by ibbi on Jul 11, 2024 21:09:47 GMT
Tough not to go with the serial cheat in the NFL, even if he is a serial cheat. Even going back before he was a serial cheat, as a Bills fan, fuck this guy. Forget all the rings and everything, and the cheating, just year after year after year after year seeing his Pats teams so well coached and so rarely making boneheaded mistakes compared to everyone else was... Infuriating. All that left-footed punter stuff too. Seriously, fuck this guy.
Not having been born yesterday, Andy Reid's recent rings are not enough for me to forget his time in Philadelphia and endless comic instances of being unable to manage the clock. With the aforementioned fuckhead and Coach Carroll gone though, he might be the best left, sure. Give or take elder Harbaugh. I think that dude in Indy is a genius in the making though. They'll probably collapse after my having said this, but his work the past two years was incredible.
Like everyone else, I'm a Pop fan, even if he's done nothing major for a decade now, you still see a whole bunch of the more interesting/smart/versatile players around the NBA (Derrick White, Kyle Anderson, Dejounte Murray, Kawhi, to lesser extents Pöltl, Bertans, going further back Danny Green, George Hill) and they all made there way through his gym.
Still, those last two titles kind of put Jackson over the top for me. We all know the stars he had, but doing it with three different loads of stars was seriously impressive. Tough to overlook Auerbach too, and Riley. Spoelstra does strike me as being easily the best right now. I look forward to seeing what Kerr is capable of once all his stars are gone.
Alex Ferguson is god almighty when it comes to football. Completely rebuilt teams and just kept on winning. Shoutouts to Sacchi and Bielsa.
AND GOD BLESS WHITEY HERZOG!
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Post by urbanpatrician on Jul 11, 2024 21:23:58 GMT
For the people who say Jackson manage egos....are you not aware of how good he builds championship rosters and how ridiculous his trades and free agent signings are? He traded for Longley and coincided nearly perfectly with Michael coming back. Then that Rodman signing instantly newly minted the Bulls into the greatest streak of all time. Those are ridiculous signings. How did Popovich do signing Aldridge? That 2016 team was upset by the Thunder mostly because Popovich wasn't getting the right free agents. Aldridge can only score... he's not good enough a presence in the low post like Rodman. David West was embarrassing against the Thunder, his rebounding was comical to watch. Popovich just grabbed the convenient free agents instead of the right ones like Jackson did with Rodman, Kukoc, and Longley. That 2016 Spurs should've won a championship. Even over the 73 win Warriors team who was an inch away from being upset by the Thunder and did get upset by the Cavaliers. I blame 2013 on the players' poor execution down the stretch, but Id say 2016 was strictly on Popovich. Goddamn Kawhi too. Jackson and Popovich are effectively #1 and #2 for me - but Jackson is better. No way he loses a championship with that 2016 team that broke my heart when they lost to the Thunder. Jackson gets all the players in place beforehand. He makes sure he gets the advantage in rebounding, defense, and loose balls firstly. pacinoyes - thoughts on Phil Jackson during the era of 96-98? You can't beat 96-98 era Phil Jackson. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 11, 2024 22:30:47 GMT
I blame 2013 on the players' poor execution down the stretch, but Id say 2016 was strictly on Popovich. Goddamn Kawhi too. Jackson and Popovich are effectively #1 and #2 for me - but Jackson is better. No way he loses a championship with that 2016 team that broke my heart when they lost to the Thunder. Jackson gets all the players in place beforehand. He makes sure he gets the advantage in rebounding, defense, and loose balls firstly. pacinoyes - thoughts on Phil Jackson during the era of 96-98? You can't beat 96-98 era Phil Jackson. Love him and his whole Zen Granola thing ...........he was great at getting everybody to buy into their exact role - and in putting up with players he probably wanted to smack upside the head (Rodman) Btw surprised at the same names popping up, I'd like to know what people thought of that other tier..........Pat Riley..........Bill Parcells...........Tony LaRussa etc.......... |
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Jul 11, 2024 22:42:57 GMT
For the people who say Jackson manage egos....are you not aware of how good he builds championship rosters and how ridiculous his trades and free agent signings are? He traded for Longley and coincided nearly perfectly with Michael coming back. Then that Rodman signing instantly newly minted the Bulls into the greatest streak of all time. Those are ridiculous signings. How did Popovich do signing Aldridge? That 2016 team was upset by the Thunder mostly because Popovich wasn't getting the right free agents. Aldridge can only score... he's not good enough a presence in the low post like Rodman. David West was embarrassing against the Thunder, his rebounding was comical to watch. Popovich just grabbed the convenient free agents instead of the right ones like Jackson did with Rodman, Kukoc, and Longley. That 2016 Spurs should've won a championship. Even over the 73 win Warriors team who was an inch away from being upset by the Thunder and did get upset by the Cavaliers. I blame 2013 on the players' poor execution down the stretch, but Id say 2016 was strictly on Popovich. Goddamn Kawhi too. Jackson and Popovich are effectively #1 and #2 for me - but Jackson is better. No way he loses a championship with that 2016 team that broke my heart when they lost to the Thunder. Jackson gets all the players in place beforehand. He makes sure he gets the advantage in rebounding, defense, and loose balls firstly. pacinoyes - thoughts on Phil Jackson during the era of 96-98? You can't beat 96-98 era Phil Jackson. Nobody said managing egos was all Phil did. The whole "Zen master" thing is his unique superpower, though, and part of why he had consistent success with superstar cores that you never see in the sport (just ask the Clippers). As far as team construction, those Bulls and first 3-peat Laker teams were largely created by Jerry Krause and Jerry West, respectively. Jackson does not have the responsibilities with roster construction that Pop (who is also GM of the Spurs) has. His input was requested and valued, of course, but the Bulls already had Jordan, Pippen, and Grant and the Lakers also got Shaq and Kobe beforehand. His only time bearing most of the responsibility for the roster was his disastrous stint as an executive for the Knicks, which I don't hold against his coaching ability. |
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Jul 11, 2024 22:48:55 GMT
I blame 2013 on the players' poor execution down the stretch, but Id say 2016 was strictly on Popovich. Goddamn Kawhi too. Jackson and Popovich are effectively #1 and #2 for me - but Jackson is better. No way he loses a championship with that 2016 team that broke my heart when they lost to the Thunder. Jackson gets all the players in place beforehand. He makes sure he gets the advantage in rebounding, defense, and loose balls firstly. pacinoyes - thoughts on Phil Jackson during the era of 96-98? You can't beat 96-98 era Phil Jackson. Love him and his whole Zen Granola thing ...........he was great at getting everybody to buy into their exact role - and in putting up with players he probably wanted to smack upside the head (Rodman) Btw surprised at the same names popping up, I'd like to know what people thought of that other tier..........Pat Riley..........Bill Parcells...........Tony LaRussa etc.......... I did think about Pat Riley for NBA, in large part actually because of his '90s. I think what he did in maximizing the talents of those Knicks and Heat teams and giving them such a strong defensive identity is incredible even if they could never pull it out against the unique brilliance of MJ or Hakeem in the '94 Finals. For the NFL, my distant runner-up would be Bill Walsh. His offensive revolution is now the league standard with his insane coaching tree extending throughout the league. |
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Post by urbanpatrician on Jul 11, 2024 23:12:11 GMT
For the people who say Jackson manage egos....are you not aware of how good he builds championship rosters and how ridiculous his trades and free agent signings are? He traded for Longley and coincided nearly perfectly with Michael coming back. Then that Rodman signing instantly newly minted the Bulls into the greatest streak of all time. Those are ridiculous signings. How did Popovich do signing Aldridge? That 2016 team was upset by the Thunder mostly because Popovich wasn't getting the right free agents. Aldridge can only score... he's not good enough a presence in the low post like Rodman. David West was embarrassing against the Thunder, his rebounding was comical to watch. Popovich just grabbed the convenient free agents instead of the right ones like Jackson did with Rodman, Kukoc, and Longley. That 2016 Spurs should've won a championship. Even over the 73 win Warriors team who was an inch away from being upset by the Thunder and did get upset by the Cavaliers. I blame 2013 on the players' poor execution down the stretch, but Id say 2016 was strictly on Popovich. Goddamn Kawhi too. Jackson and Popovich are effectively #1 and #2 for me - but Jackson is better. No way he loses a championship with that 2016 team that broke my heart when they lost to the Thunder. Jackson gets all the players in place beforehand. He makes sure he gets the advantage in rebounding, defense, and loose balls firstly. pacinoyes - thoughts on Phil Jackson during the era of 96-98? You can't beat 96-98 era Phil Jackson. Nobody said managing egos was all Phil did. The whole "Zen master" thing is his unique superpower, though, and part of why he had consistent success with superstar cores that you never see in the sport (just ask the Clippers). As far as team construction, those Bulls and first 3-peat Laker teams were largely created by Jerry Krause and Jerry West, respectively. Jackson does not have the responsibilities with roster construction that Pop (who is also GM of the Spurs) has. His input was requested and valued, of course, but the Bulls already had Jordan, Pippen, and Grant and the Lakers also got Shaq and Kobe beforehand. His only time bearing most of the responsibility for the roster was his disastrous stint as an executive for the Knicks, which I don't hold against his coaching ability. Nope. Phil had the final decision on Rodman. And watching old videos and hearing about stuff in 1996...I remember people saying the Rodman trade had more to do with Phil than Krause. Of course Krause had the power on paper - but I think it was more a collective effort. Jordan, Pippen, Jackson and Krause all were part of it. Its impossible to know who did the most but I think Phil was the biggest brain behind the operation.  |
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Jul 11, 2024 23:18:44 GMT
Nobody said managing egos was all Phil did. The whole "Zen master" thing is his unique superpower, though, and part of why he had consistent success with superstar cores that you never see in the sport (just ask the Clippers). As far as team construction, those Bulls and first 3-peat Laker teams were largely created by Jerry Krause and Jerry West, respectively. Jackson does not have the responsibilities with roster construction that Pop (who is also GM of the Spurs) has. His input was requested and valued, of course, but the Bulls already had Jordan, Pippen, and Grant and the Lakers also got Shaq and Kobe beforehand. His only time bearing most of the responsibility for the roster was his disastrous stint as an executive for the Knicks, which I don't hold against his coaching ability. Nope. Phil had the final decision on Rodman. And watching old videos and hearing about stuff in 1996...I remember people saying the Rodman trade had more to do with Phil than Krause. Of course Krause had the power on paper - but I think it was more a collective effort. Jordan, Pippen, Jackson and Krause all were part of it. Its impossible to know who did the most but I think Phil was the biggest brain behind the operation. Yeah, I said his input was requested and valued. Rodman I'm sure came down to Jackson's say because Rodman had a negative reputation with his antics on and off the court during his Spurs stint. The Last Dance devotes an episode to Rodman and it's noted how everyone on the team was asked what they thought of Rodman coming on board. Jackson's ability to meet Rodman where he was at and get him to buy into the team is part of his greatness as a coach, but it doesn't change my mind on how much credit he deserves for building those championship rosters. |
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Post by urbanpatrician on Jul 11, 2024 23:30:26 GMT
Nope. Phil had the final decision on Rodman. And watching old videos and hearing about stuff in 1996...I remember people saying the Rodman trade had more to do with Phil than Krause. Of course Krause had the power on paper - but I think it was more a collective effort. Jordan, Pippen, Jackson and Krause all were part of it. Its impossible to know who did the most but I think Phil was the biggest brain behind the operation. Yeah, I said his input was requested and valued. Rodman I'm sure came down to Jackson's say because Rodman had a negative reputation with his antics on and off the court during his Spurs stint. The Last Dance devotes an episode to Rodman and it's noted how everyone on the team was asked what they thought of Rodman coming on board. Jackson's ability to meet Rodman where he was at and get him to buy into the team is part of his greatness as a coach, but it doesn't change my mind on how much credit he deserves for building those championship rosters. Fair enough. Pippen and Jordan were there before Jackson, it's true. I don't mean to slight Popovich. He's my #2 and I spent my teens being a Popovich fan and I always thought he had more to do with The Spurs success than any one player did. Still, 2016 was what made me scream on my TV set "Popovich YOU WILL NEVER BE PHIL JACKSON" I was excited at the Aldridge signing. I thought Spurs were going all the way again. Even realizing the Warriors went 73-9 that year but still, Since they were upset by LeBron and nearly was upset by the Thunder maybe the Warriors weren't really THAT good. If the Spurs could've gotten by the Thunder..they could go on to the beat the Warriors and Cavs for their 6th title imo. I really wanted that 6th. But I don't know what happened in that series. West looked like he was old as hell losing every rebound and loose ball. Duncan was lagging up and down the court and I guess the Thunders more youthful players finally put them over the top. I think Phil had more to do with acquiring role players than star players. |
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Post by DaleCooper on Jul 19, 2024 9:16:56 GMT
Don't really know much about the managers before I watched football, but Sir Alex Furgeson, Carlo Ancelotti and Pep Guardiola are the ones that stands out the past 25 years. Jose was going there, but since he became a specialist in failure he no longer belongs with the others. I'd have Carlo a tad below Sir Alex and Pep and there's not much between the latter two. Sir Alex gets the shout from me for his ability to build and re-build teams over and over and win whilst doing so, but the influence of Pep in the game is huge and hard to look past really. He will also most likely be the most decorated manager of all time by a distance when he retires.
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Post by Joaquim on Jul 19, 2024 14:36:36 GMT
Don't really know much about the managers before I watched football, but Sir Alex Furgeson, Carlo Ancelotti and Pep Guardiola are the ones that stands out the past 25 years. Jose was going there, but since he became a specialist in failure he no longer belongs with the others. I'd have Carlo a tad below Sir Alex and Pep and there's not much between the latter two. Sir Alex gets the shout from me for his ability to build and re-build teams over and over and win whilst doing so, but the influence of Pep in the game is huge and hard to look past really. He will also most likely be the most decorated manager of all time by a distance when he retires. “Specialist in failure” My brother in Christ, Mourinho is still winning trophies everywhere he goes except fucking Tottenham that foolishly sacked him days before a cup final |
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Post by DaleCooper on Jul 20, 2024 9:31:19 GMT
Don't really know much about the managers before I watched football, but Sir Alex Furgeson, Carlo Ancelotti and Pep Guardiola are the ones that stands out the past 25 years. Jose was going there, but since he became a specialist in failure he no longer belongs with the others. I'd have Carlo a tad below Sir Alex and Pep and there's not much between the latter two. Sir Alex gets the shout from me for his ability to build and re-build teams over and over and win whilst doing so, but the influence of Pep in the game is huge and hard to look past really. He will also most likely be the most decorated manager of all time by a distance when he retires. “Specialist in failure” My brother in Christ, Mourinho is still winning trophies everywhere he goes except fucking Tottenham that foolishly sacked him days before a cup final Sure. He's also not able to hold down a job anymore because he's pretty sh!t at this point. |
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Post by Joaquim on Jul 21, 2024 15:52:06 GMT
“Specialist in failure” My brother in Christ, Mourinho is still winning trophies everywhere he goes except fucking Tottenham that foolishly sacked him days before a cup final Sure. He's also not able to hold down a job anymore because he's pretty sh!t at this point. Again, nothing new. Mourinho has never been in the same job for 4 years in his career. He just wins trophies and leaves (unless you’re pathetic Tottenham). His run with Roma, where he won them their first ever major European trophy, was actually his longest tenure with one team since his first stint at Chelsea and now he will continue to work miracles at Fenerbahçe |
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Post by DaleCooper on Jul 21, 2024 16:10:56 GMT
Sure. He's also not able to hold down a job anymore because he's pretty sh!t at this point. Again, nothing new. Mourinho has never been in the same job for 4 years in his career. He just wins trophies and leaves (unless you’re pathetic Tottenham). His run with Roma, where he won them their first ever major European trophy, was actually his longest tenure with one team since his first stint at Chelsea and now he will continue to work miracles at Fenerbahçe Working miracles? The last time he did that was with Inter, or something along those lines. Him not staying in jobs for long is very differrent from not being able to stay because of being mediocre. The first half of his career was more the former, whereas the second half has been the latter.
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Post by Joaquim on Jul 21, 2024 16:28:13 GMT
Again, nothing new. Mourinho has never been in the same job for 4 years in his career. He just wins trophies and leaves (unless you’re pathetic Tottenham). His run with Roma, where he won them their first ever major European trophy, was actually his longest tenure with one team since his first stint at Chelsea and now he will continue to work miracles at Fenerbahçe Working miracles? The last time he did that was with Inter, or something along those lines. Him not staying in jobs for long is very differrent from not being able to stay because of being mediocre. The first half of his career was more the former, whereas the second half has been the latter.
When you look at how calamitous the post-Fergie era has been at Utd it’s not hard to look back retrospectively and say that winning Utd the Europa League when he did, with that fucking squad, was a miracle. He even said so himself that finishing 2nd in the league with that Utd team was the greatest achievement of his career. We all called him a madman at the time for saying that but before the FA Cup win this year we were all starting to realize how good we really had it with Mourinho. His next job was Tottenham which, again, not even Jesus Christ Himself could perform miracles at that team. Then he goes to a struggling Roma team and immediately wins them their first ever piece of major European silverware in his first year there. The man still has it |
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Post by DaleCooper on Jul 21, 2024 16:44:40 GMT
When you look at how calamitous the post-Fergie era has been at Utd it’s not hard to look back retrospectively and say that winning Utd the Europa League when he did, with that fucking squad, was a miracle. He even said so himself that finishing 2nd in the league with that Utd team was the greatest achievement of his career. We all called him a madman at the time for saying that but before the FA Cup win this year we were all starting to realize how good we really had it with Mourinho. His next job was Tottenham which, again, not even Jesus Christ Himself could perform miracles at that team. Then he goes to a struggling Roma team and immediately wins them their first ever piece of major European silverware in his first year there. The man still has it Not really. It was still United, we had a better squad than every single other team in that competition that year. It's obviously always really good to actually win the thing, but it was no miracle in any way. I think he did really, really well to finish second the following season (and really his first two seasons overall), but the issue is that when things start to go against he doesn't seem to be able to handle that and blames everyone but himself. But look, I'd have kept him at United if it would have meant we hadn't got Ole.
Him winning Roma's first "major" european silverware is good and all, but it was the first time the Conference League were ever held and it's the bloody Conference League. Even David Moyes won it. Whether Mourinho still has it or not is up for debate, but it's clearly not very effective anymore. Which is why he is now managing Fenerbache and not a top team. Football seemingly has left him behind and he's still stuck in the mid 00's.
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