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Post by Martin Stett on Jun 7, 2024 14:36:59 GMT
I'm putting this in "movies," but it applies to all mediums. The concept of the "Great American Novel" - a novel that is thematically an encapsulation of the American spirit and character - is one that has always interested me. What is it in a work that makes it the universal story of "what America is about?" Obviously, the concept is vague and open to interpretation. For me, I think there is a timeless - and very often epic - quality to stories that I would consider placing in this category.
All the King's Men could have been written in three or four different centuries and would have been just as effective in all of them, as the story of Willie Talos's rise and fall (and what he means to the people he represents) would work in all of them. If there was ever a book that deserves that moniker, it is this one.
But there are other mediums as well. There Will Be Blood to The Social Network to The Godfather 1 & 2, in cinematic form. Musical albums are especially suited to exploring the themes of "America," as they can circle around and dance back without staying in any one place for two long. Anais Mitchell's Young Man in America and Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska come to mind.
In comic book form, Watchmen is a rather uniquely placed work as well, detailing the fears and hope lost of a post-Vietnam USA. (I'd argue that it is the seminal work on the American perspective of the Vietnam war in any medium.)
This is all necessarily vague, so I'm mainly looking for discussion here. What do you look for in "The Great American ______?" What works achieve the goal?
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Post by stephen on Jun 7, 2024 14:39:15 GMT
For me, the concept of the "Great American [insert medium here]" is that even though it might find itself in a particular era or deal with a particular subset of Americana, it can be transplanted to another location and another era in time and still speak to the American experience. The names and dates may change, but the story stays the same.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 7, 2024 15:02:26 GMT
I'm putting this in "movies," but it applies to all mediums. The concept of the "Great American Novel" - a novel that is thematically an encapsulation of the American spirit and character - is one that has always interested me. What is it in a work that makes it the universal story of "what America is about?" Obviously, the concept is vague and open to interpretation. For me, I think there is a timeless - and very often epic - quality to stories that I would consider placing in this category. All the King's Men could have been written in three or four different centuries and would have been just as effective in all of them, as the story of Willie Talos's rise and fall (and what he means to the people he represents) would work in all of them. If there was ever a book that deserves that moniker, it is this one. But there are other mediums as well. There Will Be Blood to The Social Network to The Godfather 1 & 2, in cinematic form. Musical albums are especially suited to exploring the themes of "America," as they can circle around and dance back without staying in any one place for two long. Anais Mitchell's Young Man in America and Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska come to mind. In comic book form, Watchmen is a rather uniquely placed work as well, detailing the fears and hope lost of a post-Vietnam USA. (I'd argue that it is the seminal work on the American perspective of the Vietnam war in any medium.) This is all necessarily vague, so I'm mainly looking for discussion here. What do you look for in "The Great American ______?" What works achieve the goal? This also begs the question....can The Great American_____________ be created or written by someone who isnt American and outside of America? I see why you'd designate Watchmen as a seminal piece of American literature, but both Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons were British and created Watchmen in the UK from their perspective from outside America. |
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Post by Martin Stett on Jun 7, 2024 15:14:42 GMT
I'm putting this in "movies," but it applies to all mediums. The concept of the "Great American Novel" - a novel that is thematically an encapsulation of the American spirit and character - is one that has always interested me. What is it in a work that makes it the universal story of "what America is about?" Obviously, the concept is vague and open to interpretation. For me, I think there is a timeless - and very often epic - quality to stories that I would consider placing in this category. All the King's Men could have been written in three or four different centuries and would have been just as effective in all of them, as the story of Willie Talos's rise and fall (and what he means to the people he represents) would work in all of them. If there was ever a book that deserves that moniker, it is this one. But there are other mediums as well. There Will Be Blood to The Social Network to The Godfather 1 & 2, in cinematic form. Musical albums are especially suited to exploring the themes of "America," as they can circle around and dance back without staying in any one place for two long. Anais Mitchell's Young Man in America and Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska come to mind. In comic book form, Watchmen is a rather uniquely placed work as well, detailing the fears and hope lost of a post-Vietnam USA. (I'd argue that it is the seminal work on the American perspective of the Vietnam war in any medium.) This is all necessarily vague, so I'm mainly looking for discussion here. What do you look for in "The Great American ______?" What works achieve the goal? This also begs the question....can The Great American_____________ be created or written by someone who isnt American and outside of America? I see why you'd designate Watchmen as a seminal piece of American literature, but both Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons we're British and created Watchmen in the UK from their perspective from outside America. Yeah, I thought about that for a bit... but I don't think being written by an outsider disqualifies one from dealing with the idea. The HBO Watchmen fanfic (which I have stated repeatedly that I absolutely despise, so I won't harp on that here) was written by an American but dealt with issues he saw in modern USA in a hamfisted, bluntly preachy way - demonizing and pointing at things that are wrong - whereas Moore and Gibbons examined the fears of a people that have lost their way from the inside. They allowed examination of viewpoints they deemed evil and chose to ask how the American system promotes these views and what drives people to them. The core is universal: fear of the unknown, a belief in something higher than innate morality to dictate what is right and wrong. By looking specifically at the malaise of post-Vietnam USA, they found a vehicle where they could explore these ideas and the human condition - American or otherwise. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 7, 2024 16:02:27 GMT
This is actually a pet topic of mine in almost everythng I review not only because I'm American - very much so, I shit red, white and blue - I should really go to a doctor....but all my favorite works ARE American - Film (except the director!), album, novel.......and they are all tied into a specific American idea - the idea of failureIn other countries failure exists - in America it is the national joke - there's an expression FOR it: "keeping up with the Jones's" - ie failing like everyone else to merely survive. No country promises as much and so often fails to deliver..... The works I think are "most American" are things like The Ramones Rocket to Russia - which could never have been made by the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Radiohead or anybody else NOT American.........its influences are specifically junk culture American - fast food, comics, the Beach Boys, New York City........t's a VERY Amercan masterpiece...........ABOUT failure and liking failing. It is insanely "American" - there is no "UK Ramones" or "French Ramones" imo........merely copies of their American-isms  |
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on Jun 7, 2024 16:44:43 GMT
for me as far as movies go it's probably Showgirls
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Post by sterlingarcher86 on Jun 7, 2024 18:42:27 GMT
For me I don’t think the term “Great American” whatever isn’t entirely a subjective thing. Reputation need to be a huge factor. “Greatest” and “best” don’t necessarily mean the same thing.
That being said the first thing that comes to mind for a film was The Godfather 1 and 2 because of their immense reputation and specifically American stories.
The first thing I thought of for book was Lonesome Dove because it’s my favorite and obviously is beloved but upon further thought I would probably say my top answer would be Moby Duck because of reputation.
Of course there are more than just one of each though.
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Post by sterlingarcher86 on Jun 7, 2024 18:46:16 GMT
For me, the concept of the "Great American [insert medium here]" is that even though it might find itself in a particular era or deal with a particular subset of Americana, it can be transplanted to another location and another era in time and still speak to the American experience. The names and dates may change, but the story stays the same. I’m not sure I completely agree with this. Like The Grapes of Wrath for example doesn’t really work in any other time or place. Yes it is a decidedly American story. The themes are universal of course. |
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Post by stephen on Jun 7, 2024 18:52:11 GMT
For me, the concept of the "Great American [insert medium here]" is that even though it might find itself in a particular era or deal with a particular subset of Americana, it can be transplanted to another location and another era in time and still speak to the American experience. The names and dates may change, but the story stays the same. I’m not sure I completely agree with this. Like The Grapes of Wrath for example doesn’t really work in any other time or place. Yes it is a decidedly American story. The themes are universal of course. I dunno, I think you could transplant the Tom Joad story to modern day and it still would work. Obviously the aesthetics change but the themes don't. |
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Post by ibbi on Jun 7, 2024 18:59:46 GMT
I like pondering few questions more than this one, for all nations. Picking out definitive ones is damn hard, picking ones that are more than momentarily defining that can apply now or a century ago or two centuries ago is tougher still. For the novel, I am very much in the Huck Finn camp. If you have 20 minutes to spare, watch this from 1:28:32 until 1:49 and try fucking arguing against it! There Will Be Blood is a very good pick among movies. Chinatown and Godpappy 2 also. They're obvious though. Two I always think of in this conversation that never get mentioned and deserve shoutouts are back-to-back b&w Depp's. Ed Wood and Dead Man. Mad Men, The Wire, Deadwood? Springsteen's Darkness on the Edge of Town, Nebraska, Muddy Waters' Folk Singer. If you subscribe to the theory that jazz is the classical music of America then take your pick, Time Out, The Shape of Jazz to Come, Lady in Satin, Kind of Blue, etc. |
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Post by sterlingarcher86 on Jun 7, 2024 19:02:27 GMT
I’m not sure I completely agree with this. Like The Grapes of Wrath for example doesn’t really work in any other time or place. Yes it is a decidedly American story. The themes are universal of course. I dunno, I think you could transplant the Tom Joad story to modern day and it still would work. Obviously the aesthetics change but the themes don't. I wasn’t really talking about the themes though. Of course those will translate but I would argue those aren’t distinctly American in that case. Ditto Moby dick. You could apply those themes to any country. I think the details of those stories being distinctly American are what make them candidates for “The Great American Novel.” |
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Post by taranofprydain on Jun 7, 2024 19:04:18 GMT
Among TV series, China Beach stands tall. Vietnam in microcosm, and toward the end it goes forward to show just how the war changed everything for those who were there serving.
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Post by sterlingarcher86 on Jun 7, 2024 19:06:16 GMT
I wasn’t even thinking of TV. The Wire was the first thing that popped into mind. Like I said. Reputation.
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Post by stephen on Jun 7, 2024 19:08:31 GMT
I dunno, I think you could transplant the Tom Joad story to modern day and it still would work. Obviously the aesthetics change but the themes don't. I wasn’t really talking about the themes though. Of course those will translate but I would argue those aren’t distinctly American in that case. Ditto Moby dick. You could apply those themes to any country. I think the details of those stories being distinctly American are what make them candidates for “The Great American Novel.” I would agree that there's something distinctly American about the Dust Bowl experience, but I was talking more about what makes something the "Great American X." Because I feel like The Grapes of Wrath isn't merely the definitive story of Depression-era yearning to find that promised land which perfectly captures the period in which it is said, it is also a story still relatable regardless of when you read it. |
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Post by sterlingarcher86 on Jun 7, 2024 19:18:23 GMT
I wasn’t really talking about the themes though. Of course those will translate but I would argue those aren’t distinctly American in that case. Ditto Moby dick. You could apply those themes to any country. I think the details of those stories being distinctly American are what make them candidates for “The Great American Novel.” I would agree that there's something distinctly American about the Dust Bowl experience, but I was talking more about what makes something the "Great American X." Because I feel like The Grapes of Wrath isn't merely the definitive story of Depression-era yearning to find that promised land which perfectly captures the period in which it is said, it is also a story still relatable regardless of when you read it. I agree with the sentiment but I would just say that is more because the themes are universal and can be understood by someone reading at any time than “It could take place at any time”. I think that has more to do with the novels greatness than it’s Americaness because those themes would work in any country. I think a novel can be very much of its time and be a Great American novel as long as the themes are universal. |
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Post by urbanpatrician on Jun 7, 2024 23:08:09 GMT
This is actually a pet topic of mine in almost everythng I review not only because I'm American - very much so, I shit red, white and blue - I should really go to a doctor....but all my favorite works ARE American - Film (except the director!), album, novel.......and they are all tied into a specific American idea - the idea of failureIn other countries failure exists - in America it is the national joke - there's an expression FOR it: "keeping up with the Jones's" - ie failing like everyone else to merely survive. No country promises as much and so often fails to deliver..... The works I think are "most American" are things like The Ramones Rocket to Russia - which could never have been made by the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Radiohead or anybody else NOT American.........its influences are specifically junk culture American - fast food, comics, the Beach Boys, New York City........t's a VERY Amercan masterpiece...........ABOUT failure and liking failing. It is insanely "American" - there is no "UK Ramones" or "French Ramones" imo........merely copies of their American-isms Pretty good take. They are more American culture than Beastie Boys but I think the similarity is they're both obsessed with partying/party culture except Beastie Boys are more prone to vandalizing the places they're partying at. |
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