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Post by pupdurcs on May 5, 2024 22:00:12 GMT
I thought the Ethan Hawke/Keanu Reeves thread was kind of off, because as actors they are not really like for like in any way in terms of skill sets. Keanu is primarily an action star with some comic chops, and Hawke is primarily a dramatic actor. It's like putting Clint Eastwood against Laurence Olivier. But I know the OP did it because I've shown support to both actors in the past and he gets his enjoyment out of trolling that way  Even though I expect Clift to win on MAR, I do think Hawke may be the closest thing to Clift in modern times. Their skill sets are very similar, imho. My take, which some may disagree with, but I'll at least explain. They both were emblematic of the "Sensitive male lead" for their respective eras. Neither quite fit the more agressive alpha male mould ( which the likes of Marlon Brando and Paul Newman did, even though they mixed it with sensitivity). Clift gets lumped in with all the other major method actors of his time, but in many ways he had the most passive and least overpowering screen presence of all them. In Clift's time, I thought the most similar actor to him wasn't actually Brando or any American, but the British film actor Dirk Bogarde. I put Clift, Bogarde and Hawke in a similar bracket of nuanced and sensitive actors with a significant range, whose screen presences were not neccesarily as overpowering as some of their contemporaries. So they are great actors, but register a bit less as movie stars. So, who ya got? |
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Post by pacinoyes on May 5, 2024 22:24:44 GMT
* Reeves and Hawke were at least peers in the same age group who could have played each others roles so that, to me, makes way more sense except Reeves isn't that good ...he is "iconic" though that is true...... * Clift is an all time actor and you could argue him in talent - and maybe importance - with almost any American or at least possibly in that loosely defined "Top 11-20 American actors" maybe.........but he has drawbacks too - he didn't try comedy and was so recessive he didn't dominate which men usually need to do but Hawke is not an all-timer, and no Clift....... * SeanJoyce - if he still lurks on MAR - may be fascinated by or repulsed by this poll  In that THe Cinema of Archives Poll - Clift was about where he should be #32 in World Cinema, not just US - imo...Hawke is way high at #41........but.......ymmv 1. Robert De Niro 2. James Stewart 3. Marlon Brando 4. Toshirô Mifune 5. Al Pacino 6. Jack Nicholson 7. Daniel Day-Lewis 8. Humphrey Bogart 9. Cary Grant 10. Charlie Chaplin 11. Marcello Mastroianni 12. Tony Leung 13. John Wayne 14. Henry Fonda 15. Brad Pitt 16. Leonardo DiCaprio 17. Paul Newman 18. Gene Hackman 19. Clint Eastwood 20. Dustin Hoffman 21. William Holden 22. Robert Mitchum 23. Max von Sydow 24. Emil Jannings 25. Alain Delon 26. Jean-Paul Belmondo 27. Buster Keaton 28. Philip Seymour Hoffman 29. Klaus Kinski 30. Joe Pesci 31. Burt Lancaster 32. Montgomery Clift 33. Joaquin Phoenix 34. Jean-Louis Trintignant 35. Tom Cruise 36. Kirk Douglas 37. Bill Murray 38. Jean Gabin 39. Takashi Shimura 40. Edward Norton 41. Ethan Hawke 42. Clark Gable 43. Denzel Washington 44. Chishû Ryû 45. Ralph Fiennes 46. Michael Caine 47. Sean Penn 48. Sean Connery 49. Christian Bale 50. Anthony Hopkins  |
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Post by franklin on May 5, 2024 22:30:20 GMT
Clift is a top 25-30 all-time level actor, i don't understand why it's even a question.
Btw slightly off-topic, but that list is nonsense.
Brad Pitt at 16??
Over Hoffman, Hackman, PSH, DiCaprio, Newman, Phoenix, Bale, etc, but Hopkins in fiftieth position??
Hawke over Washington???
Why do we rely on this meaningless list?
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Post by pacinoyes on May 5, 2024 22:34:26 GMT
Clift is a top 25-30 all-time level actor, i don't understand why it's even a question. Btw slightly off-topic, but that list is nonsense. Brad Pitt at 16?? Over Hoffman, Hackman, PSH, DiCaprio, Newman, Phoenix, Bale, etc... Like most lists it starts great - the top 10 is pretty stellar - gets wacky- then gets right again- then wacky again.......I only listed the top 50....the NEXT 50 is worse imo and the top 50 has several eyebrow raisers anyway |
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Post by pupdurcs on May 5, 2024 22:46:06 GMT
Clift is a top 25-30 all-time level actor, i don't understand why it's even a question. Btw slightly off-topic, but that list is nonsense. Brad Pitt at 16?? Over Hoffman, Hackman, PSH, DiCaprio, Newman, Phoenix, Bale, etc, but Hopkins in fiftieth position?? Hawke over Washington??? Why do we rely on this meaningless list? Because Pacinoyes found it somewhere on the internet and Denzel isn't too high on it. The only time we ever see it is when Pacinoyes reprints it. It's not meaningful  As for Hawke/Clift....I think it's a valid question because Hawke currently feels underrated, and I don't think we know what his true legacy/reputation will end up as. But he's consistently good and has delivered a number of good/great performances. Remember, Clift was actually underrated and undervalued for many years ( didn't even get voted on the AFI 25 Greatest Male Film Legends list), before people started to go to bat for him. Hawke feels like the perfect candidate for that kind of retrospective revaluation. Training Day, Gattaca, The Northman, First Reformed, The Good Lord Bird, Before Midnight, Before The Devil Knows You're Dead, Before Sunset, Before Sunrise,, Reality Bites, Dead Poets Society, White Fang.
In my opinion, Hawke easily has the kind of body of work that can see him elevated to top 50 all time level, if critics and cinephiles want to go there one day. I know Clift's reputation is currently much more elevated than Hawke's, but these things aren't static. |
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Post by pacinoyes on May 5, 2024 22:56:26 GMT
Clift is a top 25-30 all-time level actor, i don't understand why it's even a question. Btw slightly off-topic, but that list is nonsense. Brad Pitt at 16?? Over Hoffman, Hackman, PSH, DiCaprio, Newman, Phoenix, Bale, etc, but Hopkins in fiftieth position?? Hawke over Washington??? Why do we rely on this meaningless list? Because Pacinoyes found it somewhere on the internet and Denzel isn't too high on it. Yeah basically they said what I said years ago - his filmography blows - they wrote THAT below- I didn't know he finished 43rd - I posted the list when Pacino was 5th it's on this board - for all I knew Denzel could have been 6th..........they did an actor per day .......and 38 days later he came up Tough break, way it goes......... "His weakness is undeniable – it is just the overall quality of films here. He suffers a similar fate to a Clark Gable or a Peter O’Toole (or Meryl Streep a little on the female side). Denzel is like a virtuoso musician who deserves to be part of a better rock band – or the sports athlete who lights up the statistics and highlights, but is never part of a team that competes for a title. Outside of his top two films with Spike Lee, Philadelphia (where Tom Hanks gives easily the best performance in the film) and The Tragedy of Macbeth – one can sum up the others by saying “Denzel is fantastic – but overall… the film is just good.”
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Post by pupdurcs on May 5, 2024 22:58:24 GMT
Because Pacinoyes found it somewhere on the internet and Denzel isn't too high on it. Yeah basically they said what I said years ago - his filmography blows - they wrote THAT below- I didn't know he finished 43rd - I posted the list when Pacino was 5th it's on this board - for all I knew Denzel could have been 6th..........they did an actor per day .......and 38 days later he came up Tough break, way it goes......... "His weakness is undeniable – it is just the overall quality of films here. He suffers a similar fate to a Clark Gable or a Peter O’Toole (or Meryl Streep a little on the female side). Denzel is like a virtuoso musician who deserves to be part of a better rock band – or the sports athlete who lights up the statistics and highlights, but is never part of a team that competes for a title. Outside of his top two films with Spike Lee, Philadelphia (where Tom Hanks gives easily the best performance in the film) and The Tragedy of Macbeth – one can sum up the others by saying “Denzel is fantastic – but overall… the film is just good.”
That's nice. You're still a racist, so don't care  |
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Post by stephen on May 5, 2024 23:06:14 GMT
Clift stands a very strong claim of being the best pre-'70s actor ever (at least as far as the Americans are concerned), and while I like Hawke fine, this is no contest for me.
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Post by pupdurcs on May 5, 2024 23:13:40 GMT
Clift stands a very strong claim of being the best pre-'70s actor ever (at least as far as the Americans are concerned), and while I like Hawke fine, this is no contest for me. You think Hawke stands a chance of his reputation being elevated? Particularly when he's now doing work the level of First Reformed and The Good Lord Bird.Also, do you think Clift could have had his reputation if he was a contemporary of Hawke? If feel like Clift is maybe a bit low-key stylistically (like Hawke to some extent) to be automatically granted the status of "generational great actor" today, like say Joaquin Phoenix. |
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Post by pacinoyes on May 5, 2024 23:14:59 GMT
I've mentioned this a couple of times for Clift - Clift took ~4 YEARS off in that perod of his car crash - James Dean emerged and died in that time (54-57)  His career was odd in that way.........as was his interest in theater - which he couldn't (or didn't) much pursue - he's a great missed opportunity On the other hand he has the greatest Rock song about any actor  |
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Post by countjohn on May 5, 2024 23:22:53 GMT
Not a huge fan of either one but Clift does have some legit performances like Judgement at Nuremberg, The Heiress, or The Search. Just not a Hawke fan.
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Post by stephen on May 5, 2024 23:53:05 GMT
Clift stands a very strong claim of being the best pre-'70s actor ever (at least as far as the Americans are concerned), and while I like Hawke fine, this is no contest for me. You think Hawke stands a chance of his reputation being elevated? Particularly when he's now doing work the level of First Reformed and The Good Lord Bird.Also, do you think Clift could have had his reputation if he was a contemporary of Hawke? If feel like Clift is maybe a bit low-key stylistically (like Hawke to some extent) to be automatically granted the status of "generational great actor" today, like say Joaquin Phoenix.I mean, we don't know what the future holds, and I'd say Hawke's best work is within the last couple of years (even if I don't like First Reformed, I can recognize the quality of the work he's putting in). I do think that for right now, he'll be most remembered for his work with Linklater and being emblematic of that '90s "slacker" era, but that can change on a dime if he starts cranking out bangers with quality filmmakers. It's hard to say about how Clift would be received if he were a contemporary actor because he's the forerunner of so many great talents who shaped modern acting in the back half of the decade. It's like asking how '50s-era Brando would be received in 2024. Are we to assume that acting still evolved to its current place even if we remove Clift/Brando from their era and transpose them now, and would they be as major as they were now, or would we see them at the level of Joaquin Phoenix (in Clift's case) or Tom Hardy (in Brando's)? I will say that if you moved Hawke to the '50s/'60s, he probably would've enjoyed reliable success especially when you hit the counterculture era. But he's got a strong work ethic and that would've served him very well in that transitional era. |
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Post by fiosnasiob on May 6, 2024 15:40:07 GMT
Yeah basically they said what I said years ago - his filmography blows - they wrote THAT below- I didn't know he finished 43rd - I posted the list when Pacino was 5th it's on this board - for all I knew Denzel could have been 6th..........they did an actor per day .......and 38 days later he came up Tough break, way it goes......... "His weakness is undeniable – it is just the overall quality of films here. He suffers a similar fate to a Clark Gable or a Peter O’Toole (or Meryl Streep a little on the female side). Denzel is like a virtuoso musician who deserves to be part of a better rock band – or the sports athlete who lights up the statistics and highlights, but is never part of a team that competes for a title. Outside of his top two films with Spike Lee, Philadelphia (where Tom Hanks gives easily the best performance in the film) and The Tragedy of Macbeth – one can sum up the others by saying “Denzel is fantastic – but overall… the film is just good.”
That's nice. You're still a racist, so don't care I don't know if this weirdo is a racist, it would probably explains several things tho. But he's definitely the most obsessed, insecure loser I've ever seen on a forum. I didn't know it was even possible to reach this level of insanity over movies related talks. I mean talking/posting so many times about this actors list made by a complete random on internet to show us where Denzel is ranked is just one of the hundreds (HUNDREDS for God's sake) things this loser has been doing on here for years to diss him, it's a never ending story and he use so many tricks, sometimes in unrelated threads, to do it and again, the problem is not the opinion, it's the attitude !! I don't know what happened in this loser life to end up like this or I rather say, what didn't happened because he's living on this forum, he's completely trapped in this tiny world of MAR with all his obsessions, his insecurities, his ego that leads to extreme, extreme repetitiveness, how many times he will repeat the same thing over and over and over... because he can't accept others opinions on some subjects, how many times he will comeback in a thread quoting someone (Franklin often) just to add some negativity or to be the last person to post on it, how ma...well he's doing so many BS things on this entire forum, it's just crazy. I know some people like him for his obvious good contribution in movies talk and I'm not denying it but on the other side, what an insuferable, obsessed (he's mentally ill) human being we have here, seeing him completely lose it over the years and becoming, in several ways, someone else was quite...something. Anyway, Clift. |
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Post by pacinoyes on May 6, 2024 16:02:52 GMT
That's nice. You're still a racist, so don't care I don't know if this weirdo is a racist Well get back to us when you know for sure, ya BJ Queen doofus......  |
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Post by fiosnasiob on May 6, 2024 16:32:50 GMT
I don't know if this weirdo is a racist Well get back to us when you know for sure, ya BJ Queen doofus...... The answer I expected, well done keyboard warrior. |
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Post by pupdurcs on May 6, 2024 16:42:10 GMT
That's nice. You're still a racist, so don't care I don't know if this weirdo is a racist, it would probably explains several things tho. He is. Not exactly news, but it's been getting excessive in the past few months, and he's had to be warned about it by mods: movie-awards-redux.freeforums.net/thread/26245/filmmaker-spike-lee-david-lynchAt least we don't have to pretend his opinions on Denzel, Spike or any black person at all have any value, so fringe benefit and all that. |
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Post by SeanJoyce on May 15, 2024 3:45:16 GMT
* SeanJoyce - if he still lurks on MAR - may be fascinated by or repulsed by this poll Oh, you know me...I come here sporadically to ruffle some feathers before pulling an extended Irish goodbye. I'm not "repulsed" by the comparison so much as I'm perplexed by it. I don't think it works; it's very obvious that if you're going to compare a more modern actor to Clift, especially from the time period when Hawke ascended, his Explorers costar River Phoenix makes so much more sense. He exuded the same grace, vulnerability and quiet power that were Clift's trademarks. What does repulse me though is statements like this, which I've ignored in the past but they obviously bear addressing given the fact that their ubiquitous nature underlines a generally upheld belief here: Seriously, what does this even mean? I promise you that no attempt to defend it will withstand even the slightest scrutiny. Clift was so zealously committed to whatever project he chose that he not only wanted to soak in every aspect of his character, but do it in a way that best served the material. He wasn't interested in "dominating", which I can only mean trying to stand out and apart when his was a totally collaborative nature. He "dominated" enough in his debut that he not only didn't get blown off the screen by arguably the biggest movie star of all time (John Wayne), but he earned his (and the cast/crew's) grudging respect for how he adapted to the rugged outdoors (fresh off a NY stage) and was able to pass muster in the climactic fistfight. Burt Lancaster freely admitted to shaking with fright the first time he had to shoot a scene with Clift, stating that he'd never worked with an actor of that power. Clark Gable, the "King of Hollywood", upon watching the dailies of The Misfits, gasped in awe to Huston "that f** can act." Spencer Tracy, Richard Widmark and (Oscar-winning) Maximillian Schell may as well have been invisible during his riveting 12-minute wonder in JAN. The great Brando himself told Clift that he was the only actor he measured himself against. Donna Reed and James Jones' (the author) wife said that Clift was so ferociously committed to the project that he was practically worn out before shooting even began. Fred Zinnemann, the director, said that Clift's dedication and professionalism caused everybody to up their games. Reed, Sinatra (and later Martin) never spared praise for how responsible Clift was for their performances. I do not get this "dominate" shit. Clift was a special performer precisely because he was able to draw you in without having to resort to the obvious tactics of his peers and contemporaries. You see plenty of people accused of being a Brando clone, but who was ever accused of copying Clift? I think that Brando did as much harm for acting as he did good if people seriously believe this stuff. Clift's problem is very simple: he didn't make enough movies. Liz Taylor said he'd have been the biggest movie star in the world if he wasn't so picky. His agent, whom he shared with Brando, confessed that Clift got all the offers first. And he sadly didn't live to get his second wind a la Brando, which he would have given how humongous of fans guys like Scorsese and Bogdanovich are on record as being. As for him not pursuing stage, erm.... |
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Post by futuretrunks on May 16, 2024 3:15:48 GMT
I'll vote Ethan. Clift was fine; I never quite understood this idea that he was a giant. He had a nice soulfulness, but wasn't really capable of grand effects.
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Post by pupdurcs on May 16, 2024 21:00:53 GMT
I'll vote Ethan. Clift was fine; I never quite understood this idea that he was a giant. He had a nice soulfulness, but wasn't really capable of grand effects. Yeah, it's a lot closer than many might think, imho. Hawke is doing better than I thought on this poll though, with 25% of the vote so far. Figured Clift might whitewash him, considering he seems to be much more regarded on this forum than Hawke. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 6, 2024 4:58:07 GMT
* SeanJoyce - if he still lurks on MAR - may be fascinated by or repulsed by this poll I'm just pleased you're still around and that you post from time to time and that you could write 5 short paragraphs about my 12 words ^ while pretending that you didn't even understand what you were replying to anyway  |
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