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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 6, 2024 5:32:41 GMT
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Day-Lewis is going to ether Kilmer on this board (though I think it might be the opposite in the real world), but I honestly feel Kilmer gives the greater performance between the two in these modern Western films, Tombstone and There Will Be Blood . Everyone knows Kilmer gave one of the all-time special cinematic performances, but it still feels somewhat undervalued considering what a titanic performance it actually is.
Kilmer was acting against some very good actors giving the best performances of their careers ( ie Michael Biehn) And nobody even gives a shit, because Doc Holiday completely owns the film.
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Post by JangoB on Jan 6, 2024 12:32:33 GMT
Not even a comparison for me: one is the greatest male performance I've seen, the other isn't even among the top 5 supporting performances of 1993. I mean, I like Kilmer in the movie just fine but this is no contest. And I'm not sure where your assessment of the opinion of the "real world" is coming from.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 6, 2024 13:16:29 GMT
What Jango said but one of the reasons for the mystique around TWBB that isn't mentioned too much is what British actor could convincingly play the occupation? Like Jeremy Irons would have been a great Daniel but not as an oil man - something implicitly American - and the film's set up is so astonishing an introduction of that character - it's almost self-defining mytthic. Like a lot of great characters have great introductions but not usually THAT long and without dialog ...... Side note: Like I always say - never particularly funny imo until he worked (twice) with PTA but with PTA he showed a whole different side of himself .....
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Post by mhynson27 on Jan 6, 2024 13:21:10 GMT
Not even a comparison for me: one is the greatest male performance I've seen, the other isn't even among the top 5 supporting performances of 1993. I mean, I like Kilmer in the movie just fine but this is no contest. And I'm not sure where your assessment of the opinion of the "real world" is coming from.Honestly Attempted bait for a flame war I'd imagine.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jan 6, 2024 15:07:21 GMT
Not even a comparison for me: one is the greatest male performance I've seen, the other isn't even among the top 5 supporting performances of 1993. I mean, I like Kilmer in the movie just fine but this is no contest. And I'm not sure where your assessment of the opinion of the "real world" is coming from.Honestly Attempted bait for a flame war I'd imagine. If he wanted that, he would have put DDL against Denzel in The Magnificent Seven - Pac would have bitten, at least
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Post by futuretrunks on Jan 6, 2024 15:24:55 GMT
DDL is a cartoon in TWBB. Probably the single most overrated performance of all time. DDL has several of those, with My Left Foot and Lincoln. He's only great in GoNY and In the Name of the Father.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 6, 2024 15:29:31 GMT
And I'm not sure where your assessment of the opinion of the "real world" is coming from. Just the popularity of Tombstone. I think it's one of the most popular and rewatchable modern Westerns. It's a dad movie and TV staple. Wheras I think There Will Be Blood holds much higher esteem among cinephile and critics, I don't think it has that entertainment and replay factor that makes Tombstone such a go to favorite for general audiences. I believe a lot more people have seen Tombstone over the years than There Will Be Blood, so it's only natural that being the more mainstream film, it'd play better to general audiences (ie "the real world"). It's not a slam or a comment on the quality of either man's performance. And it's not "bait for a flame war" either you oversenstive bastards . Just a general observation that people are free to agree with, disagree with, or ignore. truewestmagazine.com/article/tombstone-a-reckoning/I disagree about the 1993 supporting performances though. It was arguably the greatest ever year for that category (lots of great supporting performances not even nominated) and I think Kilmer should have beaten everyone... easily. I think it's one of the best performances of the decade and one of the best of all time. If you don't agree, that's fine. It's all opinions at the end of the day. But I know many people do feel as strongly as me about Kilmer's work. collider.com/val-kilmer-tombstone/
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 6, 2024 15:35:37 GMT
Surprised how close this poll is though (that can always change though ). Like I said, I know how much this board worships DDL in There Will Be Blood, so I expected a complete blow-out of Kilmer by the oilman. He still won't win, but the current vote of 9-6 is better than I expected for Iceman. Glad to see some appreciation for the greatness of Kilmer's Doc Holliday on MAR.
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Post by stephen on Jan 6, 2024 15:37:11 GMT
Tombstone has a fifteen-year headstart on There Will Be Blood for “more people seeing it,” and considering the type of movie it is (an engaging crowd-pleasing Western shoot-‘em’-up versus an austere arthouse exploration of capitalism versus religion in America), it’s little wonder one would be more appealing to someone channel-surfing on TNT.
Kilmer’s sublime in Tombstone, quintessentially iconic as Doc Holliday and should easily have been nominated in ’93 (where he clears the field on four of the five nominees, and he ties with Postlethwaite and the similarly un-nominated Richard Jordan for best supporting performance of the year and maybe even the decade). I will definitely go to bat for this performance (and the film itself) with vigorous relish . . . but you know where my loyalties lie.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Jan 6, 2024 15:41:23 GMT
I wouldn't doubt Tombstone is more popular among a certain (older) crowd as it's a cable TV staple, but idk if I'd say it's significantly more seen than There Will Be Blood. At the very least, I can't find any evidence of that - TWBB laps it multiple times over in number of ratings on IMDB, RT, Letterboxd, etc. and it's referenced much more often in other media and memes ("I drink your milkshake," "I've abandoned my child"). Just going anecdotally, damn near everyone over 40 I know has seen Tombstone and only around half of them have seen TWBB, but among younger people it's much more rare to hear someone talk about Tombstone but way more common to hear a DDL impression.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 6, 2024 15:46:34 GMT
Tombstone has a fifteen-year headstart on There Will Be Blood for “more people seeing it,” and considering the type of movie it is (an engaging crowd-pleasing Western shoot-‘em’-up versus an austere arthouse exploration of capitalism versus religion in America), it’s little wonder one would be more appealing to someone channel-surfing on TNT. Kilmer’s sublime in Tombstone, quintessentially iconic as Doc Holliday and should easily have been nominated in ’93 (where he clears the field on four of the five nominees, and he ties with Postlethwaite and the similarly un-nominated Richard Jordan for best supporting performance of the year and maybe even the decade). I will definitely go to bat for this performance (and the film itself) with vigorous relish . . . but you know where my loyalties lie. I know DDL is your guy, and There Will Be Blood is one of the performances you put above all others, so I got nothing but respect for this intelligent and measured response. Salut . See, no ridiculous crying about bait for flame wars. It can be done if you have some intellectual rigour
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Post by stephen on Jan 6, 2024 15:50:34 GMT
I wouldn't doubt Tombstone is more popular among a certain (older) crowd as it's a cable TV staple, but idk if I'd say it's significantly more seen than There Will Be Blood. At the very least, I can't find any evidence of that - TWBB laps it multiple times over in number of ratings on IMDB, RT, Letterboxd, etc. and it's referenced much more often in other media and memes ("I drink your milkshake," "I've abandoned my child"). Just going anecdotally, damn near everyone over 40 I know has seen Tombstone and only around half of them have seen TWBB, but among younger people it's much more rare to hear someone talk about Tombstone but way more common to hear a DDL impression. As someone who grew up in the American South and distinctly remembers when Tombstone made cultural landfall, it has entered the cultural lexicon with a few of its choice quotes ("I'm your huckleberry"; "Skin that smokewagon and see what happens" and the delicious "Bye" that Powers Boothe richly delivers). I just think comparing the two's pop culture status is a bit lopsided because one is an easily digestible movie about an iconic historical event every American knows, and the other is a dark and brooding character study about an unlikable oil tycoon waging war against a sham preacher.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 6, 2024 17:07:31 GMT
I know AMC TV played his movie, so there's some implicit bias, but I do agree with the sentiment ( Kilmer should have been a lock to win the Oscar, imho) and I like how common a sentiment it's become on social media. I don't think there's a single reply on that tweet that disagrees that he should have won.
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Post by countjohn on Jan 6, 2024 20:23:03 GMT
Not sure why so many people say he deserved to win when Ralph Fiennes exists and was doing all timer work on par with DDL in TWBB in Schindler's List. Kilmer deserved a nod and would have been good enough to win in a lot of years but 93 was stacked for supporting actor.
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Post by stephen on Jan 6, 2024 20:31:50 GMT
Not sure why so many people say he deserved to win when Ralph Fiennes exists and was doing all timer work on par with DDL in TWBB in Schindler's List. Kilmer deserved a nod and would have been good enough to win in a lot of years but 93 was stacked for supporting actor. I actually think Fiennes wasn't even the best supporting actor in his own movie. I'm a Kingsley man through and through.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 6, 2024 21:59:55 GMT
Not sure why so many people say he deserved to win when Ralph Fiennes exists and was doing all timer work on par with DDL in TWBB in Schindler's List. Kilmer deserved a nod and would have been good enough to win in a lot of years but 93 was stacked for supporting actor. No disrespect to Fiennes, who was terrific, but a lot of people think Kilmer was doing all-timer work on par with DDL in TWBB. I mean, that's kind of the point of this thread . Fiennes was great. For me, Kilmer was better. It was a stacked year (look at the supporting performances that didn't get nodded ... Kingsley in Schindler's List, Sean Penn in Carlito's Way, Denzel in Philidelpia ( if you count him as supporting, which many did at the time), Sam Neil in The Piano). Many people consider 1993 an all-time supporting actor line-up, but you could arguably make an even better line-up with those who weren't nominated. In hindsight, I don't think Tommy Lee Jones or John Malkovich really merited their nominations in a year that stacked. And I'd give Kilmer the win over all of them, nomimated or non-nominated. So many good/great actors have played Doc Holliday. It's practically the Hamlet of westerns. The role has now become so iconic and synonymous with Kilmer's portrayal. Nobody quotes lines from any other Doc Holliday. That's hard to achieve with so many other actors taking a stab at it. It's a very unique performance. Kilmer never reached that level before and didn't reach it after, but by God did he pull something extraordinarily special out of the bag with his take on Doc. Kilmer's a great actor, but he's not in GOAT actor conversations (like a DDL), and I don't think he should be. But his work in Tombstone shouldn't even be remotely controversial to be in GOAT performance conversations.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jan 7, 2024 11:41:08 GMT
I wouldn't doubt Tombstone is more popular among a certain (older) crowd as it's a cable TV staple, but idk if I'd say it's significantly more seen than There Will Be Blood. At the very least, I can't find any evidence of that - TWBB laps it multiple times over in number of ratings on IMDB, RT, Letterboxd, etc. and it's referenced much more often in other media and memes ("I drink your milkshake," "I've abandoned my child"). Just going anecdotally, damn near everyone over 40 I know has seen Tombstone and only around half of them have seen TWBB, but among younger people it's much more rare to hear someone talk about Tombstone but way more common to hear a DDL impression. I'm just going to echo what stephen said about the relative pop culture impacts of Tombstone and There Will Be Blood . They aren't comparable. Tombstone was a nearly 3 decade old western, when Funko Pop released a line of Tombstone figurines in 2020. That's serious pop culture juice. That's just one example of how it permeated pop culture. It's just an insanely popular mainstream movie in a way There Will Be Blood isn't quite ( I know it had some pop culture buzz, but much of that was very close to it's initial release. It's not the kind of film that has cable TV replay appeal, so that initial buzz has faded). Tombstone is a train that's never stopped.
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sirchuck23
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Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
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Post by sirchuck23 on Jan 8, 2024 0:03:45 GMT
Wanted to give a shoutout to Stephen Langs’ great work as Ike Clanton. Probably one of his best performances as well. Because law don’t go round here…savvy?
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Post by stephen on Jan 8, 2024 0:09:34 GMT
Wanted to give a shoutout to Stephen Langs’ great work as Ike Clanton. Probably one of his best performances as well. Because law don’t go round here…savvy? Lang had a low-key banner year in 1993 with this and Gettysburg, where he plays the foppish and soon-to-be-notorious General Pickett. He's even better in Gettysburg than in Tombstone, where we get to see him go from a overly cocky Confederate general eager to rout the damn Yankees to suddenly horrified by the meat-grinder that was Pickett's Charge. The scene where Martin Sheen's Robert E. Lee comes across Pickett, lost in a daze, is one hell of an "oh shit" moment.
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sirchuck23
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Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
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Post by sirchuck23 on Jan 8, 2024 1:15:25 GMT
Wanted to give a shoutout to Stephen Langs’ great work as Ike Clanton. Probably one of his best performances as well. Because law don’t go round here…savvy? Lang had a low-key banner year in 1993 with this and Gettysburg, where he plays the foppish and soon-to-be-notorious General Pickett. He's even better in Gettysburg than in Tombstone, where we get to see him go from a overly cocky Confederate general eager to rout the damn Yankees to suddenly horrified by the meat-grinder that was Pickett's Charge. The scene where Martin Sheen's Robert E. Lee comes across Pickett, lost in a daze, is one hell of an "oh shit" moment. He was great in Gettysburg. Lang sure did have a nice 1993. An underrated film, the entire cast brought their A-game for that one. Decent argument could be made that that is Jeff Daniels finest hour. People talk about 1999 and 2007 as all-time great film years, but I’ll put 93 right with them. So many great films and performances that year.
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Post by stephen on Jan 8, 2024 1:17:47 GMT
Lang had a low-key banner year in 1993 with this and Gettysburg, where he plays the foppish and soon-to-be-notorious General Pickett. He's even better in Gettysburg than in Tombstone, where we get to see him go from a overly cocky Confederate general eager to rout the damn Yankees to suddenly horrified by the meat-grinder that was Pickett's Charge. The scene where Martin Sheen's Robert E. Lee comes across Pickett, lost in a daze, is one hell of an "oh shit" moment. He was great in Gettysburg. Lang sure did have a nice 1993. An underrated film, the entire cast brought their A-game for that one. Decent argument could be made that that is Jeff Daniels finest hour. People talk about 1999 and 2007 as all-time great film years, but I’ll put 93 right with them. So many great films and performances that year. It really is a fantastic ensemble from top to bottom. And I've said it before, but Richard Jordan in Gettysburg gives an all-timer performance in Best Supporting Actor, and one of the best final roles in cinematic history.
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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 2, 2024 7:58:32 GMT
Another example of just how far Kilmer's Doc Holliday and Tombstone permeated pop culture, way beyond most westerns. In 2022, Jake Gyllenhaal did a spoof version of Tombstone on Saturday Night Live, with himself as Kilmer/Holliday.
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