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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 17, 2020 7:04:34 GMT
On paper, Anthony Quinn is one of the most accomplished actors in film history. But I don't feel he's really talked up that much in contemporary terms though. He won two Oscars, both for supporting actor, opposite two of the most iconic leading men in film history ( Marlon Brando for Viva Zapata and Kirk Douglas for Lust For Life), yet he's not commonly held up as being a real 'rival' of either of those actors (even though he also replaced Brando in A Streetcar Named Desire on Broadway). He was also nominated for a Best Actor Tony for Becket on Broadway in 1961, playing King Henry II opposite Laurence Olivier's Thomas Becket. So Quinn was major on both film and stage, going toe to toe with some of the very greatest.
Quinn was very much a character actor, but he also played notable leads, such as Zorba The Greek, and was renowned for his versatility in being able to play a host of different ethnicities.
Perhaps his style of acting (very expressive and bombastic in most things. Almost operatic and low on subtlety) hasn't aged well, but it's interesting he's not held in higher esteeem today considering how accomplished he was.
In many ways, he reminds me of another actor today...Willem Dafoe (both 4 time Oscar nominated actors, except Dafoe doesn't have any Oscars like Quinn or even the stage accomplishments of Quinn). Versatile, respected and accomplished character actors in their time, who could play leads when called upon, but never really percieved as one of the defining actors of their generation.
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Post by TerryMontana on Dec 17, 2020 7:41:44 GMT
I think when he was in his 50s-60s, he was considered one of the best. Maybe I'm wrong though, I wasn't even born then.
But many of his latest movies were bad, garbage even. So maybe this played its part in his legacy. Just guessing.
In my mind he was a great actor, anyway.
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Post by pacinoyes on Dec 17, 2020 9:18:46 GMT
Yes, extremely underrated and I think it mostly has to do with the way film changed in the 60s-70s and his inability to keep up - I don't think there's a great Quinn performance after Zorba and some of them are sort of Steiger-level in his descent. I don't think younger people are inclined to go back to his earlier work unfortunately. Quinn played against his ethnicity a lot which to me is a big deal and now is almost never done - not to the extent he did certainly. He also acted opposite heavy hitters across film cultures too (Magnani, Wild Is The Wind). Dafoe is a good comparison although I would say to me he's more like a Keitel in the way he presented masculinity on screen - at least .........although Keitel didn't have his ethnic range - he did have that same sort of assessment of the male id in all its brutality and vulnerability. To me Quinn' greatest performance is in his greatest movie Zampanò in La Strada which also has his greatest single scene ........he wasn't nominated for that but it is an all-timer ............ the same way The Leopard separates Burt Lancaster in the 60s etc.
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 17, 2020 10:25:48 GMT
There may be an element involved that Quinn playing across so many ethnicities the way he did, while held up as a sign of versatility in his day, is often frowned upon by modern audiences and seen more often as being cheesy or inauthentic (actors today have to be careful how far they go in that direction for that reason). Seeing the same dude pretend to be Native American, Italian, Arab, Greek and everything else under the sun can actually come off quite gimmicky today in a way it might not have seemed in Quinn's time. In addition to his quite broad acting style, it could partially account for why critics for example haven't helped keep his reputation elevated. Tastes change.
I feel like a lot of Brando's less regarded work today is the stuff where he did attempt to play outside his ethnicity ( Viva Zapata, where he goes Mexican, isn't anywhere as highly regarded for him as Streetcar, On The Waterfront or even Julius Ceasar). No one takes Brando playing Japanese in The Teahouse Of The August Moon seriously today.
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Post by MsMovieStar on Dec 17, 2020 10:28:54 GMT
Oh honey, I couldn't believe it when I found out he was Mexican! He is amazing in Zorba, the Greek and in La Strada.
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Post by stephen on Dec 17, 2020 14:53:41 GMT
I think part of it is that Quinn (a dynamic and electric performer at his peak) didn't really have the longevity needed to sustain him as the face of the cinematic landscape changed around the 1970s. Imagine if Coppola had decided to cast Quinn as Don Vito Corleone instead of Brando. If he does that, I think you see a massive upheaval not just in Quinn's respect nowadays, but Brando (whom most people cite as being the greatest, or at least most influential, actor of the twentieth century) might be seen as someone with an amazing start who fell fallow after his Oscar success. Quinn's '50s were very successful and he was good enough to be a leading man in the '60s with some excellent performances to his name, some of which are incredibly influential (Requiem for a Heavyweight kind of built on Kirk's Champion blueprint and I think the likes of De Niro and Rourke, among dozens of others, owe a huge debt to them), but I think if he'd been able to make a dent in the '70s wave, we'd be considering him one of the greats as a matter of course.
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sirchuck23
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Post by sirchuck23 on Dec 17, 2020 15:22:31 GMT
"Wh..Wh..What is this Benedict? First you my friend...now you turn a........360 on me.
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 17, 2020 15:42:45 GMT
I think part of it is that Quinn (a dynamic and electric performer at his peak) didn't really have the longevity needed to sustain him as the face of the cinematic landscape changed around the 1970s. Imagine if Coppola had decided to cast Quinn as Don Vito Corleone instead of Brando. If he does that, I think you see a massive upheaval not just in Quinn's respect nowadays, but Brando (whom most people cite as being the greatest, or at least most influential, actor of the twentieth century) might be seen as someone with an amazing start who fell fallow after his Oscar success. Quinn's '50s were very successful and he was good enough to be a leading man in the '60s with some excellent performances to his name, some of which are incredibly influential ( Requiem for a Heavyweight kind of built on Kirk's Champion blueprint and I think the likes of De Niro and Rourke, among dozens of others, owe a huge debt to them), but I think if he'd been able to make a dent in the '70s wave, we'd be considering him one of the greats as a matter of course. I get what you are saying, but I still feel Quinn's run in the 50's and 60's ought to have been enough to cement him as one if the "greats", if people/critics were truly interested in doing so (not to mention he had a complete body of work in character roles in the 1940's, before he became a more prestige film actor in the 50's). Many legends from those decades faded or did not see a significant resurgence in the 70's ( Kirk being an example), but their legends held up strongly based on what they'd already done I truly think his acting style is the bigger issue. It's very "big" and melodramatic, and feels big in almost everything. I don't think his style converts quite as comfortably to modern audiences as Douglas (who could be big, but could also utilise stillness and silence to perfection, as in many scenes in Spartacus) and Brando, who also could go big, but probably with more nuances than Quinn. I feel if modern critics truly felt passionate about Quinn's work, they wouldn't let the fact that he dropped off in the 70's stop them from still championing him. It's one thing for modern audiences not to care, but I don't even see him talked up much by critics or cinephiles who are supposed to be familiar with his work.
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Post by stephen on Dec 17, 2020 15:53:15 GMT
I get what you are saying, but I still feel Quinn's run in the 50's and 60's ought to have been enough to cement him as one if the "greats", if people/critics were truly interested in doing so (not to mention he had a complete body of work in character roles in the 1940's, before he became a more prestige film actor in the 50's). Many legends from those decades faded or did not see a significant resurgence in the 70's ( Kirk being an example), but their legends held up strongly. I truly think his acting style is the bigger issue. It's very "big" and melodramatic, and feels big in almost everything. I don't think his style converts quite as comfortably to modern audiences as Douglas (who could be big, but could also utilise stillness and silence to perfection, as in many scenes in Spartacus) and Brando, who also could go big, but probably with more nuances than Quinn. I feel if modern critics truly felt passionate about Quinn's work, they wouldn't let the fact that he dropped off in the 70's stop them from championing him. It's one thing for modern audiences not to care, but I don't see him talked up much by critics or cinephiles who are supposed to be familiar with his work. I think you can make the argument that what worked against Quinn was his chameleonic, can-play-any-ethnicity nature. He's recognizable, but he never really had a brand. He also was more than content playing second banana to bigger names or bigger characters at a time when leading stature actually meant something. The man won two Oscars in the 1950s against bigger stars than himself, stealing the show from at least one of them in the process. And while he's got a fair amount of terrific films in his canon, most of those are still things that cinephiles have to really seek out, as only Lawrence of Arabia is arguably his most enduring pop-culture mainstay, and he's only in that movie relatively briefly. Things like Zorba the Greek or La Strada are major films, but the average filmgoer in 2020 hasn't seen (or likely even heard of) them. Comparing him against Douglas is always going to have Kirk win out because Kirk's got more mainstream classic movies to his name like 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea and Spartacus (and, well, because the guy was around forever and had a cinematic dynasty going). Quinn's relative modern obscurity is a shame, but I think that he needed to consecrate his elder statesman role in the '70s with roles like what Brando did. I can see Quinn in pretty much every one of Marlon's roles in that period (well, maybe not The Missouri Breaks) and doing well with them, and it's not like what Quinn was doing in that era was chopped liver. It's unfortunate, but not everyone gets to be remembered by everybody, even if you've got the screen and stage pedigree of Anthony Quinn.
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Post by themoviesinner on Dec 17, 2020 16:37:07 GMT
Great actor and definitely very underrated. Has several fantastic performances to his name (La Strada, Viva Zapata, Zorba The Greek among others), but I think his greatest performance (and among the greatest of all time) came late in his career in Lion Of The Desert.
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sirchuck23
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Post by sirchuck23 on Dec 17, 2020 17:27:08 GMT
To be completely honest, I need to seek out his work from the 40s-60s. Its sad, but I was introduced to him when he popped up in some 90s films like Jungle Fever and yes..Last Action Hero.
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Post by countjohn on Dec 17, 2020 18:35:38 GMT
Perhaps his style of acting (very expressive and bombastic in most things. Almost operatic and low on subtlety) hasn't aged well, but it's interesting he's not held in higher esteeem today considering how accomplished he was. Well, I think you kind of answered your own question here. A lot of the actors from classic Hollywood who seem to be held in the highest esteem now are the "movie star" actors like Cary Grant or John Wayne, because that kind of acting really has not changed much. You could take Cary Grant out of a time machine and put him in a rom-com today and he'd be just as good. Dramatic acting in movies has changed immensely and I think a lot of the people who were perceived as "great actors" in the 40's or 50's can come off a little facile and hammy today, with a few exceptions obviously like Brando, Olivier, or Bette Davis. Speaking of Brando, whether he gets The Godfather or not I think he was always going to have the better legacy because his older work just holds up a lot better. You could show On the Waterfront or Streetcar to some "I don't watch B&W movies" normie and they'd still be able to appreciate his performances even if they don't like the rest of the movie. Calling his acting style modern isn't so much accurate as calling it timeless or classic, he'd be a good actor in any era. It's like how there have been a couple discussions about Bogart on here where it's been observed that he really wasn't as big a star as you might think in his own time and his legacy is dependent on how well his movies and performances hold up now. Which is why I've criticized this forum before for the fixation on counting wins and noms as if that decides the greatest actor. In 50 years no one will care and it will just be about the work itself. Walter Brennan is a 3x acting winner, now go on the street and see how many people walking by know who Walter Brennan is. Quinn has a very nice Oscar resume with two wins and four nods but it still a fairly obscure figure outside of movie buffs. I still like Quinn, but he's very much of his time, so he's not someone I would expect to come up in all time discussions that much.
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Post by pacinoyes on Dec 17, 2020 19:04:38 GMT
Perhaps his style of acting (very expressive and bombastic in most things. Almost operatic and low on subtlety) hasn't aged well, but it's interesting he's not held in higher esteeem today considering how accomplished he was. Speaking of Brando, whether he gets The Godfather or not I think he was always going to have the better legacy because his older work just holds up a lot better. That is exactly right and the deeper aspect of that is no one else adapted to the 70s (even though he didn't do much) like Brando did - so he in effect topped the American actors he had already topped in the 50s again - for a SECOND time. I usually think about it from it from Last Tango of Paris in the scene where he speaks to his dead wife - there is nothing like that in anything he had done prior on film in terms of language, tone, feel - maybe the greatest scene by an actor in English ever......... Burt Lancaster was still doing good work in the 70s and Holden did Network and Lemmon - but they essentially were the actors we already knew from before but older. Brando however looked different and felt entirely different: The Godfather/Last Tango/Apocalypse Now are different in look from each other even........ and he had the capabiiity to speak profanity (or whatever - adapt to the era) and sound and feel contemporary. Quinn to me is a lot closer to a Steiger than he ever was to Brando except that Steiger peaked later ........
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 17, 2020 19:17:23 GMT
Perhaps his style of acting (very expressive and bombastic in most things. Almost operatic and low on subtlety) hasn't aged well, but it's interesting he's not held in higher esteeem today considering how accomplished he was. Speaking of Brando, whether he gets The Godfather or not I think he was always going to have the better legacy because his older work just holds up a lot better. You could show On the Waterfront or Streetcar to some "I don't watch B&W movies" normie and they'd still be able to appreciate his performances even if they don't like the rest of the movie. Calling his acting style modern isn't so much accurate as calling it timeless or classic, he'd be a good actor in any era. Agreed that Brando's legacy would still be better than Quinn's even without The Godfather and his 70's resurgence because much of his key his older work holds up better for modern audiences. And I know you aren't a huge fan, but I'd say pretty much the same about Kirk Douglas, which is why his legendary status has held up so strongly, despite his career going into a mostly irreversible decline in the mid-60's. Things like Champion, Out Of The Past, Ace In The Hole, Paths Of Glory and even Spartacus are effectively "timeless" performances that still work for modern audiences.
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Post by therealcomicman117 on Dec 17, 2020 20:43:23 GMT
It's a fascinating question to me, and I'm glad somebody brought it up. Anthony Quinn doesn't seem to be talked about much as his contemporaries nowadays, and I actually wonder why. Quinn had a remarkable career trajectory in a lot of ways. He was a typecasted vaguely Mexican looking actor who started out play a lot of thugs or stereotypical Latino roles during the studio system, but managed to overcome typecasting, and then later graduated to some co-lead or even lead in a lot of stuff like Zorba The Greek, or Requiem for A Heavyweight. Not to mention all the European films such as La Strada.
I think what mostly hurt him was the perception that he could really be a ham, and the fact that he starred in a lot of low-budget awful looking movies where he really looked embarrassed to be in them. It’s not like someone like Brando was starred in some real crap later on but was still relatively picky with his scripts, Quinn would seemingly do anything. He did manage to make a brief comeback in the 90s playing older more boisterous fathers, before passing away relatively quietly, but that still wasn’t enough for his reputation to really grow in any meaningful way. For me he is a great actor, who probably deserves more recognition, but doesn’t really get it.
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 17, 2020 20:49:14 GMT
I think what mostly hurt him was the perception that he could really be a ham, and the fact that he starred in a lot of low-budget awful looking movies This pretty much describes Nicolas Cage, doesn't it Cage gets a lot of (some might say ironic) love in some circles (and this forum as well) for his gonzo hamminess and willingness to star in anything that will pay him enough, but you gotta wonder if he's destined for a similar fate as Quinn.
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Post by therealcomicman117 on Dec 17, 2020 20:53:41 GMT
I think what mostly hurt him was the perception that he could really be a ham, and the fact that he starred in a lot of low-budget awful looking movies This pretty much describes Nicolas Cage, doesn't it Cage gets a lot of (some might say ironic) love in some circles (and this forum as well) for his gonzo hamminess and willingness to star in anything that will pay him enough, but you gotta wonder if he's destined for a similar fate as Quinn.If Cage keeps doing weird looking Foreign asian movies like Jiu-Jitsu, then I certainly can see him following the path of Quinn. Although at least Quinn never wasted his money on dinosaur skulls, that I know of.
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sirchuck23
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Post by sirchuck23 on Dec 17, 2020 21:19:46 GMT
This pretty much describes Nicolas Cage, doesn't it Cage gets a lot of (some might say ironic) love in some circles (and this forum as well) for his gonzo hamminess and willingness to star in anything that will pay him enough, but you gotta wonder if he's destined for a similar fate as Quinn.If Cage keeps doing weird looking Foreign asian movies like Jiu-Jitsu, then I certainly can see him following the path of Quinn. Although at least Quinn never wasted his money on dinosaur skulls, that I know of.
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Post by hugobolso on Dec 19, 2020 6:05:24 GMT
He was no beauty, he was the beast, and aren't right now beast Hollywood star with sex appeal.- Yep there is Javier Bardem or Benicio Del Toro, but they don't keep on Quinn shoes, they haven't the charm.-
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