Nikan
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Post by Nikan on Sept 8, 2020 21:02:17 GMT
Is it really necessary to the central romance anyway? Imagine cutting it out (throwing away 30 minutes of material) and we have a sublime 80-90 minutes forbidden love story. EDIT: I am imagining someone someday edit the film in the way Raising Cain was uploaded (and re-born really) on VIMEO some years ago, cutting any bit related to the maid's pregnancy... admittedly this looks a little in bad taste as I'm typing this down but I wonder how different the film would be... purely about the affair before the upcoming marriage. Maybe I will be proven wrong: maybe the story needs some other subplot to catch a breath of sorts... before the girls' departure.
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Post by bob-coppola on Sept 8, 2020 21:14:50 GMT
Absolutely not. The abortion plot might not add much to the romance, but it's crucial to one of the film's core themes: the kinship in the hidden world of women when they're alone. The world of POALOF is unseen to men, it's about what women do when no one's looking. And the abortion plot is pretty much this: these three women living with each other, bonding and struggling away from the eyes of society and men.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Sept 8, 2020 21:32:20 GMT
Absolutely not. I wouldn't change a single thing about the film. Including abortion makes the narrative more than a lesbian romance but more of a catch-all for pre-modern feminine sorority (all of Sciamma's 2010s films explicitly celebrate female solidarity) and feminine determination/agency in a world where that was rare, and it culminates in one of the film's most stunning moments with all those women singing around the bonfire--that wouldn't have been as meaningful if this mini-conflict with Sophie hadn't been overcome because the bonfire scene is meant to be cathartic and celebratory. The abortion plot is intrinsic to the film's language and themes.
as Sciamma describes the scene in a convo with Emily VanDerWerff from Vox:
It's also meaningful that Marianne paints the abortion because Sciamma presents Marianne's painting throughout the film as documentation, in essence women writing their own history, and in this case an image of abortion that can be a consoling source of female solidarity & strength and not something negative or immoral.
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Post by pacinoyes on Sept 8, 2020 21:33:46 GMT
It doesn't bother me but an interesting observation on that is this - and it's a pacinoyes observation so half the people won't agree anyway - film/literature defaults to the side of the female when abortion is addressed. Because it is longer and has more ways to address it in the medium........ and pop music when it even covers abortion at all (VERY rare) can do it far more bluntly and often against the act. In "Story of Women" (a great film) the abortionist during the war is the ultimate representative of hypocrisy against her and it's very complex and takes the whole film to reveal itself.......in Rock music, two famous, amazing songs "Bodies" clearly an anti-abortion screed by the Sex Pistols against upper class hypocrisy to even contemplate abortion (or sin).........and "You Can't Be Too Strong" by Graham Parker, a masterpiece actually sung from the male POV though it's more ambiguous though it plays as anti-abortion (which may not be the intent). "Respectable Street" by XTC is another great song where it comes up ....... far closer to the Sex Pistols POV - the abortion is representative of the parents of the girl and their bourgeois wealth and attitudes.
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on Sept 8, 2020 23:32:04 GMT
i'm not particularly fond of the movie but i think it adds character to it by giving the film a bit of a hang out vibe
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Post by TerryMontana on Sept 9, 2020 5:36:43 GMT
i'm not particularly fond of the movie but i think it adds character to it by giving the film a bit of a hang out vibe Exactly that. Not a fan of the movie but the storyline stays.
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Nikan
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Post by Nikan on Sept 9, 2020 9:37:32 GMT
Thanks for the clearly laid-out responses (and for the first time Pacinoyes, I don't know what you're talking about at all). I was exhausted last night but now that I've slept on it perhaps I can explain myself better. I am a little disappointed that Portrait is not the masterpiece it could've been. You know the feeling...one gets mad at films which are 'almost there' way more than straight up garbage movies. I don't remember when was the last time this happened too and this intensely (GoT season 8?)... The first half or so is so compelling, cinematography is so heartrendingly beautiful and performances so precise, one almost gets tempted to place it among the finest of Hitchcock (peeping and falling in love with the work of art) and Bergman (isolated women and their struggles), but then the abortion story line comes up... and the film, after starting so nicely tackling the previous themes starts to throw a hand at one of the hottest trends of the day. The singing bit, although beautiful to listen to, is my least favorite scene of the film...it's concerns become exclusive if not political...and it's not that where I stand on abortion argument personally, just, why should the story include that? Who is the father? why must the child go? Why handled so one-sided? why celebrated? (here the difference with Bergman begins by the way: I forget that I am a man when I'm watching Cries and Whispers. in Portrait I'm reminded that I'm different from this people if not dissed completely. Crazy to think Bergman was, God forbid, a man too.) Some years ago we got The Duke of Burgundy which didn't tie lesbianism with feminism if I recall correctly... and felt all the more progressive for it. But different times, different artists and concerns... if repression is supposed to be a theme (THE theme maybe, which of course is proper for a tale set in late 18th century: one of the interesting little things being the nod to female painters doing works under their fathers name at the gallery) it was established well enough in the story: the idea of painting a portrait for Heloise'suitor is gold... but there has to be an obvious, conventional shutout to 'the cause' sisters no? This all sounds like I was craving the film I wanted to see instead of the path the filmmaker was stepping on (don't we all do this though?) and that's fine but... the unfortunate disconnection remains. Good thing the film becomes involving once it returns to the leads... and come on, the first ending is the real ending .
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Post by pacinoyes on Sept 9, 2020 10:10:21 GMT
Thanks for the clearly laid-out responses ( and for the first time Pacinoyes, I don't know what you're talking about at all). I was exhausted last night but now that I've slept on it perhaps I can explain myself better. Perhaps I wasn't clear - what I was saying, is that if you come across the subject of abortion introduced in almost any film or in literature it will almost always take the side of being "pro-choice" because the format of film is longer and you invest more of your time into it ....... and you are not going to structure your story on a major character that your audience doesn't support or at least understand or that you can remove - if it's introduced at all. In pop music or songs and the examples that I gave (Sex Pistols, XTC. Graham Parker etc.) that is not the case - you don't have to have the audience identify with a character to find the song artistically worthy. In fact, quite the opposite - by removing time invested/identification pop music can address abortion in ways a film really can't. It's a difference in the mediums, that's all I was saying .......you're never going to come across a film that could "erase" an abortion element in a storyline, not just Portrait of a Lady on Fire - so the question is flawed to me just on a fundamental level about the medium.
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