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Post by Martin Stett on Aug 30, 2020 3:51:26 GMT
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 30, 2020 8:36:41 GMT
I think it's a deceptively crucial issue and it also explains the reasons why Covid was so insidious (ie when you go through a crisis you turn to family and God and those were both taken away in some ways by social distancing and churches seemed to be arbitrarily targeted as "non-essential").
The Republicans have shrewdly incorporated this feeling - though mostly non-directly - in their convention too about discussing what "a mess" California is and it's tremendously important to people of faith who nationally will vote somewhat on this on California's behalf (since California is a blue state anyway).
I know that seems like I'm conflating different things here and doing it nationally too but people conflate them in their thoughts on personal liberties too all the time and it's hard to convince people that church isn't being unfairly "punished/singled-out" when some other "essential businesses" are operating indoors.
I think Newsom has made concessions but it doesn't "seem" like it and it will be interesting to see if this blows over with Fall coming or becomes even more heated....
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cherry68
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Man is unhappy because he doesn't know he's happy. It's only that.
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Post by cherry68 on Aug 30, 2020 15:15:40 GMT
Here churches were closed by the authorities during the lockdown (March to the beginning of June). Mosques weren't.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Aug 30, 2020 16:48:11 GMT
The freedom to exercise religion has always come with a caveat of protecting public interests/safety (in theory at least lol). Meeting in person in the middle of a pandemic when most establishments are closed is endangering public safety and many outrbreaks have already been tied to church ignoring safety precautions and meeting anyways, and THIS is a megachurch for fuck's sake, that's an outbreak waiting to happen. If these people lived in a little commune by themselves it wouldn't be an issue, but they aren't just going to be transmitting the virus amongst each other but to other people out in society who had no part in the selfishness of these thousands of people who are too lazy to figure out Zoom.
If you are running a megachurch, it is woefully irresponsible to hold no-distance events for thousands of people, I don't care what the bible says. You are literally consciously endangering people.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Aug 30, 2020 16:54:42 GMT
This was Pope Francesco giving the benediction during the worst days of the pandemic. A man alone in Vatican square.
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Post by mhynson27 on Aug 30, 2020 17:09:18 GMT
We've got things decently under control here in Sydney and my church is still not holding in-person services.
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Post by Martin Stett on Aug 30, 2020 17:36:14 GMT
The freedom to exercise religion has always come with a caveat of protecting public interests/safety (in theory at least lol). Meeting in person in the middle of a pandemic when most establishments are closed is endangering public safety and many outrbreaks have already been tied to church ignoring safety precautions and meeting anyways, and THIS is a megachurch for fuck's sake, that's an outbreak waiting to happen. If these people lived in a little commune by themselves it wouldn't be an issue, but they aren't just going to be transmitting the virus amongst each other but to other people out in society who had no part in the selfishness of these thousands of people who are too lazy to figure out Zoom. If you are running a megachurch, it is woefully irresponsible to hold no-distance events for thousands of people, I don't care what the bible says. You are literally consciously endangering people. Well, there are issues with this thinking, to my mind. First, I don't see the caveat anywhere in the constitution. Second, there's the principle of the matter: if one church is closed by government interference, this becomes more of a threat to other churches. Where does the interference end? Or when does it end? If churches can be closed down by this, what other "public interest" will close down churches next time? I was at Hershey Park (an amusement park) on Tuesday, and although crowds were certainly far lower than at other times, it was still a crowded area - far more crowded than most churches are. Now, megachurches are admittedly a bit different (and by their very size, I don't think that they can actually do what they are told in the NT, but that's neither here nor there), but there's still a worrying precedent being set here. And then there's Zoom. Zoom can handle preaching, but preaching isn't "church." In the New Testament church as outlined in Paul's epistles, church isn't a Sunday morning sermon, but rather a gathering of people to pray, encourage, and (if need be) confront each other. Gov. Newsom's specific mandates against homegrown meetings are a direct challenge to this command, at the very least. The internet will never be a substitute for human, face to face contact. Some of the fears from mental health professionals that suicide rates will rise (the fact that calls to mental health helplines have risen by around 200% is worth taking note of here) back up the fundamental reasoning behind Paul's admonishment to keep churches meeting (and in Paul's time, some of these churches were being hunted). As for not caring what the bible says, well... I'm looking at the constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." I'd say that this is pretty cut and dry. Arguments can be made that these laws are not specifically targeting religion, but these laws still respect the establishment and free exercise of it. What happens when the government can shut down churches? It can shut down, say, free speech, or the press. For the "public good." The right of the people to peaceably assemble to address grievances can be taken away for the public good (also, the double standard of Newsom supporting tightly packed protests but not tightly packed churches makes me smile). If the government can take one thing in the constitution and ignore it for "public safety," they can do that with anything. And that should worry everybody.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Aug 30, 2020 18:24:09 GMT
Well, there are issues with this thinking, to my mind. First, I don't see the caveat anywhere in the constitution. Second, there's the principle of the matter: if one church is closed by government interference, this becomes more of a threat to other churches. Where does the interference end? Or when does it end? If churches can be closed down by this, what other "public interest" will close down churches next time? First, freedom of religion has always been subject to and held against criminal law and public interest generally, which is why the Branch Davidians were targeted for allegations of child molestation and felony firearms possession (by the way, the conflict between the 2nd amendment and illegal firearm possession--an oxymoron to some--is comparable and yet policy often tends towards public/personal safety in that discussion too regardless of where one falls on the issue). I think that's a good standard. The manner of interference can be questioned in that one case but what should never be in question is that allegations of sexual assault and firearms possession are things to be taken seriously. Placing restrictions on megachurchs during an ongoing pandemic operates on the same principle. Second, the constitution should be a living document, and history since our founding has indicated that it is. Coronavirus is an unprecedented public health catastrophe that merits a significant response, just as laws have to be engineered or evolved to compensate for technological and scientific advancements that the founders would not have predicted or planned for (climate change for example). In the year 2020, attending a megachurch puts yourself and others at risk of death, period. That reality deserves a more concerned and public-facing response than a mere appeal to a 200 year-old document. Lastly, the corollary to your question is also true and more meaningful: to what extent does the public interest have to be endagered before interference is warranted? It's a tricky question, but risk of death in the middle of a pandemic is probably taking it too far. And then there's Zoom. Zoom can handle preaching, but preaching isn't "church." In the New Testament church as outlined in Paul's epistles, church isn't a Sunday morning sermon, but rather a gathering of people to pray, encourage, and (if need be) confront each other.So I'll just respond to this bit: every single church service I've ever attended in my life has been relentlessly sermon-focused. I can't speak to how all pastors run their meetings but that's also a credit to the vast diversity of belief/doctrine in American Christianity. You can go to church for half your life and have very little semblance of how others in the same faith choose to worship. So I'd question the veracity of framing this policy issue within a single interpretation of a single passage of scripture. Many Christians have been fine using Zoom or other video conference apps, and those that aren't are getting frustrated for the same reasons we all are: because humans are social creatures. That's a human thing, not a religion thing, and yet being in the middle of a pandemic demands a cautious distance that's antithetical to our natures but for our own wellbeing and the wellbeing of others we might unknowingly infect. No one likes wearing masks either, but it's the conscientious thing to do. The mental health point is astute but again that comes back to the collective stress we're all going through, not just believers. That suicides and calls to mental health helplines overall have increased during Trump's administration is indicative of the same kind of stress, dread and uncertainly that many of us have been living with for the past four years under such an erratic and narcissistic administration where basic facts and science are held up to ridicule. I'm terrified most days. But regardless, those stats increased when churches were all still open and functioning. Arguments can be made that these laws are not specifically targeting religion, but these laws still respect the establishment and free exercise of it. What happens when the government can shut down churches? It can shut down, say, free speech, or the press. For the "public good." Or make individuals get background checks before attaining dangerous firearms. If the government can take one thing in the constitution and ignore it for "public safety," they can do that with anything. And that should worry everybody. Slippery slope. A balance always has to be struck between individual liberty and public wellbeing, that's how societies prevent devolving into chaos. It's why criminal laws exist. Prohibiting churches from assembling and worshiping in a way that physically and tangibly endangers third parties who had no factor in those decisions with sickness and death is not overstepping anymore than libel laws overstep free speech laws. There has to be a healthy balance.
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Post by Martin Stett on Aug 30, 2020 18:50:53 GMT
Well written, Tommen. I disagree about your points on public interest, as your examples are outlawed, criminal behaviors anyway. I know nothing about the Branch Davidians, but judging by what you just said, we know that child molestation and illegal firearms are illegal and have been verified as such by lawmakers. Meeting together isn't a criminal activity, and I find that outlawing it because meeting poses threats to people is a very, very shaky branch.
As for sermon focused church: many Sunday morning services throughout the U.S. are sermon focused, yes. But if there is not prayer, if there is not a gathering of believers to speak with and encourage each other, I honestly believe that these churches are not following what they are commanded to do in their own guidebook. I don't much care what the majority of churches do, as they should never be the guideline used.
As for guns: I'm with you man, you're preaching to the choir. I am anti-gun and we absolutely need background checks. I fail to see what it has to do with churches gathering on private property to follow their religion.
Libel laws don't overstep free speech laws because libel can do irreparable harm to a man's career and life. Saying that a group can't meet together because somebody may be infected which may infect someone else which may infect someone else who may infect somebody who dies is something that I can't get behind, because it creates hypothetical injury that may occur down the line as a result of these meetings. Look, I can get sick from passing somebody on the street. Or getting groceries. I may pass it on to my elderly parents. But I can't blame that on being near somebody else that didn't know they were sick. And I can't blame that on somebody who goes to a meeting that they believe they have the *duty* to go to.
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Post by hugobolso on Sept 1, 2020 17:39:05 GMT
The Governor is stupid, and commited stupid mistakes like allowed to remove several statues including San Fray Luis Junipero, Isabella the Catholic, and Christopher Columbus, and several US heroes, and christian preachers don't matter if they are Prostestant or Catholics are infuriated. Among a bad health politic against COVID 19.
Republicans see the Blue California State weak, so encourage the preachers to boicott this stupid Governor.- It's part of the Black Lives Matters pendulum, now affects people who encourage or allowed riots.-
This isn't about allow or not allowed sermons and masses. Preachers are tired of the Governor and the Democratic California Party, they see them as an enemy and not as the head of the office.-
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Sept 1, 2020 20:07:15 GMT
My thoughts are that all religion is pretty ridiculous and churches should no longer be tax exempt.
For those that wish to exercise their religious rights they should be able to pray outside of an institution and can find a safe way to meet with their religious leader if needed.
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Post by mhynson27 on Sept 2, 2020 2:10:56 GMT
My thoughts are that all religion is pretty ridiculous and churches should no longer be tax exempt. For those that wish to exercise their religious rights they should be able to pray outside of an institution and can find a safe way to meet with their religious leader if needed. Thanks fam.
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