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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 20, 2020 0:42:43 GMT
I gotta be honest dude, I haven’t seen a single online poll whether it be on Film Twitter or other forums where Affleck isn’t on top from this past decade’s crop of winners. There’s a poll on Awards Worthy about the decade’s winners that went up after this year’s Oscars and Affleck has a fairly astonishing 126 out of 186 votes. I'm looking forward to the absolute random and meaningless "evidence" that pupdurcs will conjure up that supports his statement. The reaching will be funny to watch. Glad to be of service
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Post by pacinoyes on Feb 20, 2020 0:50:17 GMT
And Affleck lost SAG because that was when his controversy was getting its most media attention and Denzel having never won a SAG was being used as a narrative. Had Denzel already won a SAG and Affleck not been getting backlash, I have no doubt Casey would have won. It’s the second time Denzel benefited from someone else’s bad behavior and a perception that he was due (the first obviously being beating Crowe for the Oscar). ^ This is absolutely right. Washington's history basically boils down to 3 "events" in 3 races - when he lost the '92 Globe and Malcolm X underperformed at the Oscars he lost the chance for the upset win (Not likely that year but the Globe loss killed his shot), the Training Day win had the combination of Crowe's incident and Roberts party for him which was a big deal, and 2017 when he didn't get a BAFTA nod ended a chance to upset that year. He's my win in 92 and I am ok with his Training Day win (Wilkinson is my pick) but he has an interesting side story each year in those 3 races ......
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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 20, 2020 0:51:27 GMT
And Affleck lost SAG because that was when his controversy was getting its most media attention and Denzel having never won a SAG was being used as a narrative. Had Denzel already won a SAG and Affleck not been getting backlash, I have no doubt Casey would have won. It’s the second time Denzel benefited from someone else’s bad behavior and a perception that he was due (the first obviously being beating Crowe for the Oscar). I think Washington won SAG because it was a far more technical and actor friendly performance than Affleck's. The narrative that he's never won before doesn't work SAG doesn't pay attention to that. Robert DeNiro is a legend on par with Washington who has never won SAG, and that narrative has not helped him convert his recent nomimations. Performances as muted as Affleck's rarely win the lead actor SAG. Washington is far more the typical winner in terms of the kind of performance it was. If the "controversy" was ultimately that big a deal, it would have stopped Affleck from winning the Oscar. SAG just thought Washington gave a better performance and the performance more in line with what they tend to award in that category. Affleck's was a critics performance that gained industry momentum through an insane amount of campaigning. Does Affleck win the Golden Globe, if Ben and Matt aren't doing personal meet and greets with the Hollywood Foreign Press Association to campaign for Casey? Probably not.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Feb 20, 2020 2:21:01 GMT
It is an amazing performance that absolutely deserved to win. I thought he was gonna get screwed out of his win because of the controversy building on him but I was beyond elated when he won. I’ve been meaning to give the film a rewatch I just don’t know if I’m ready to revisit the subject matter yet.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Feb 20, 2020 2:22:36 GMT
I gotta be honest dude, I haven’t seen a single online poll whether it be on Film Twitter or other forums where Affleck isn’t on top from this past decade’s crop of winners. There’s a poll on Awards Worthy about the decade’s winners that went up after this year’s Oscars and Affleck has a fairly astonishing 126 out of 186 votes. I wasn't talking about "forums" or Guy Lodge twitter. I was talking about general audiences on social media. "Forums" and Guy Lodge Twitter think Phoenix and Joker are overrated and it's fashionable to crap on both. Regular social media audiences love both the movie and Phoenix. With Affleck, I'm talking about seeing reactions like this quite regularly. Like I said, depends on where you ask. twitter.com/lauriecrosswell/status/951630663106646022?s=19 I don’t really think these random tweets are a good indication of anything.
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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 20, 2020 2:30:59 GMT
I wasn't talking about "forums" or Guy Lodge twitter. I was talking about general audiences on social media. "Forums" and Guy Lodge Twitter think Phoenix and Joker are overrated and it's fashionable to crap on both. Regular social media audiences love both the movie and Phoenix. With Affleck, I'm talking about seeing reactions like this quite regularly. Like I said, depends on where you ask. twitter.com/lauriecrosswell/status/951630663106646022?s=19 I don’t really think these random tweets are a good indication of anything. I disagree. It's an indication of exactly what I said (and as I said, I see this reaction regularly to that performance on certain social platforms, so it's not a rare or random occurence, but just a tiny sample of what's out there so the gist is gotten). Depending on where you ask, Affleck's win is either terrific and deserving or "meh" and mediocre that robbed a better performance. It's a pretty basic observation and not that deep. Your mileage may vary though.
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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 21, 2020 11:32:02 GMT
Buzzfeed took a poll of the most preferred Best Actor winning performances of the last decade. Tens of thousands of voters took part, so it's probably far more accurate to what general audiences think than a poll of under 200 people on Awardswatch or whatnot. The poll was taken before Joaquin Phoenix won for Joker, so he is not included. The most well liked Best Actor winning performance (exculding Phoenix) of the decade belonged to Leonardo DiCaprio for The Revenant. DiCaprio got 24% of the vote (19.3k votes). Casey Affleck in Manchester By The Sea finished second to last on this poll, with 2% of the vote (1.6k votes). www.buzzfeed.com/tessafahey/decade-oscars-pollGeneral audiences do not rate Affleck's performance/win at all (which has always been pretty obvious to me based on what I see on social media). By this particular metric, the performance is actually ageing pretty badly.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Feb 21, 2020 14:13:55 GMT
General audiences would also hate the vast majority of movies at the top of every Sight & Sound list and will barely remember any of this year's Oscars in 5 years.
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Post by pacinoyes on Feb 21, 2020 14:32:19 GMT
General audiences would also hate the vast majority of movies at the top of every Sight & Sound list and will barely remember any of this year's Oscars in 5 years. Yes that is right, and that analysis gets to the dichotomy of general public taste vs. critics taste vs. how the performance itself has aged which is none of those 3 things - I think the OP meant Affleck's performance is aging so well in terms off the work itself. There's a lot of minefields in assessing those "pop" things for performances especially when you drift away from analyzing the actors work - you get so far off the track as to lose the plot entirely at some point - eventually you're just assessing the audience and not the actors work.
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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 21, 2020 15:01:28 GMT
General audiences would also hate the vast majority of movies at the top of every Sight & Sound list and will barely remember any of this year's Oscars in 5 years. Feels like a bit of a strawman argument. Films that top Sight And Sound are often so niche that the vast majority of general audiences will never see them to even form an opinion on them (like The Souvenir, which topped the last list), whether positive or negative. A general audiences viewer probably won't have any opinion at all on Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall Past Lives.
If you are an Oscar winner, you have to accept the general audience, mainstream judgement that comes with that matters in terms of legacy. It is what it is. Besides which, looking at the results of this Buzzfeed poll (which covers most of the main Oscar categories), General audiences are not quite as basic or averse to nuanced work as you'd presume. Mahershala Ali in Moonlight tops the supporting actor poll over much "louder" work like Christian Bale in The Fighter or Sam Rockwell in Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri. Moonlight (an arthouse picture that went the distance) is also the second most popular Best Picture winner in the poll, scoring far higher in votes than more obviously mainstream and basic fare like Argo or Green Book.Sometimes general audiences correctly don't rate something for good reason, and often times, they are the ones who I agree with and sometimes critics (and adjacent film buffs) are often the ones who I think are trying to polish a turd or make an Emperor's New Clothes out of a film or performance. I think critics and Amazon's limitlesss campaign fund certainly pushed Affleck to the Oscar, but I agree with the general audiences who reject it as a worthy winner. It always had a whiff of Emperor's New Clothes about it that needed a certain level of excessive promotion to get the Gold. It's a fine performance, just not one that should have won Best Actor in the field it was in, and unfortunately it's getting judged on that by many. It's an interesting subject to be sure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 17:59:41 GMT
Just want to point out that you can find negative tweets like that about practically anything. Twitter is pretty much just the taste of the general population, albeit skewing younger, and many of the people on “film twitter” *shudders* are the last people to look to with this sort of thing.
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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 21, 2020 18:47:54 GMT
Just want to point out that you can find negative tweets like that about practically anything. Twitter is pretty much just the taste of the general population, albeit skewing younger, and many of the people on “film twitter” *shudders* are the last people to look to with this sort of thing. The general sentiment of those tweets is corroborated by the results of the Buzzfeed poll though. Affleck is one of the least liked and least well regarded Best Actor wins in recent memory, in terms of public perception. That's just reality. Whether that makes a difference to your personal enjoyment of that performance or not is something else entirely (it shouldn't make a difference in my opinion). But when conversation turns to Oscars, and why this person or that person did or didn't win SAG, the broader perception of the performance becomes more pertinent to the discussion. I get the general point you are making though.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Feb 21, 2020 20:37:17 GMT
Just want to point out that you can find negative tweets like that about practically anything. Twitter is pretty much just the taste of the general population, albeit skewing younger, and many of the people on “film twitter” *shudders* are the last people to look to with this sort of thing. The general sentiment of those tweets is corroborated by the results of the Buzzfeed poll though. Affleck is one of the least liked and least well regarded Best Actor wins in recent memory, in terms of public perception. That's just reality. Whether that makes a difference to your personal enjoyment of that performance or not is something else entirely (it shouldn't make a difference in my opinion). But when conversation turns to Oscars, and why this person or that person did or didn't win SAG, the broader perception of the performance becomes more pertinent to the discussion. I get the general point you are making though. The broader perception matters if the broader perception really has much of an opinion at all. A few scant tweets and a poll of people that aren't going to vote for the movie they didn't see - you mentioned Ali in Moonlight doing well but ignored the fact that the film was on Netflix and made headlines following its win both for the fiasco that transpired and for a movie about a gay, black man winning the first BP after Trump's inauguration - does not indicate the public has much of an opinion whatsoever of Manchester by the Sea or Casey Affleck's performance in it. It's a movie that didn't make much of a splash with general audiences, as most beloved movies and Oscar nominees don't. And Casey Affleck is not a star that can get any kind of sway or audience goodwill to make up for that. Just the opposite, the public knows him either just as Ben Affleck's little brother or the guy they vaguely remember seeing on their Twitter feeds for some #MeToo thing they couldn't tell you about. I wouldn't expect him to come close to winning a Buzzfeed poll of Best Actor winners, especially one where the runner-up is fucking Rami Malek.
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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 21, 2020 21:01:30 GMT
The general sentiment of those tweets is corroborated by the results of the Buzzfeed poll though. Affleck is one of the least liked and least well regarded Best Actor wins in recent memory, in terms of public perception. That's just reality. Whether that makes a difference to your personal enjoyment of that performance or not is something else entirely (it shouldn't make a difference in my opinion). But when conversation turns to Oscars, and why this person or that person did or didn't win SAG, the broader perception of the performance becomes more pertinent to the discussion. I get the general point you are making though. The broader perception matters if the broader perception really has much of an opinion at all. A few scant tweets and a poll of people that aren't going to vote for the movie they didn't see - you mentioned Ali in Moonlight doing well but ignored the fact that the film was on Netflix and made headlines following its win both for the fiasco that transpired and for a movie about a gay, black man winning the first BP after Trump's inauguration - does not indicate the public has much of an opinion whatsoever of Manchester by the Sea or Casey Affleck's performance in it. It's a movie that didn't make much of a splash with general audiences, as most beloved movies and Oscar nominees don't. And Casey Affleck is not a star that can get any kind of sway or audience goodwill to make up for that. Just the opposite, the public knows him either just as Ben Affleck's little brother or the guy they vaguely remember seeing on their Twitter feeds for some #MeToo thing they couldn't tell you about. I wouldn't expect him to come close to winning a Buzzfeed poll of Best Actor winners, especially one where the runner-up is fucking Rami Malek. That feels like a pretty big reach to explain why Ali in Moonlight did that well on the poll and Affleck in Manchester By The Sea didnt. Manchester made more money than Moonlight at the Box Office. It's streaming on Amazon, which pretty much everyone has access to and is extravagantly funded and by the richest man in the world. It's hardly an underseen underdog compared to Moonlight. But if that's what you wish to believe, more power to you. Just because Affleck's performance isn't particularly well liked outside certain niche circles, shouldn't invalidate your appreciaton of it.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Feb 21, 2020 21:11:35 GMT
The broader perception matters if the broader perception really has much of an opinion at all. A few scant tweets and a poll of people that aren't going to vote for the movie they didn't see - you mentioned Ali in Moonlight doing well but ignored the fact that the film was on Netflix and made headlines following its win both for the fiasco that transpired and for a movie about a gay, black man winning the first BP after Trump's inauguration - does not indicate the public has much of an opinion whatsoever of Manchester by the Sea or Casey Affleck's performance in it. It's a movie that didn't make much of a splash with general audiences, as most beloved movies and Oscar nominees don't. And Casey Affleck is not a star that can get any kind of sway or audience goodwill to make up for that. Just the opposite, the public knows him either just as Ben Affleck's little brother or the guy they vaguely remember seeing on their Twitter feeds for some #MeToo thing they couldn't tell you about. I wouldn't expect him to come close to winning a Buzzfeed poll of Best Actor winners, especially one where the runner-up is fucking Rami Malek. That feels like a pretty big reach to explain why Ali in Moonlight did that well on the poll and Affleck in Manchester By The Sea didnt. Manchester made more money than Moonlight at the Box Office. It's streaming on Amazon, which pretty much everyone has access to and is extravagantly funded and by the richest man in the world. It's hardly an underseen underdog compared to Moonlight. But if that's what you wish to believe, more power to you Yes, because nobody would dare want to watch the movie that upset a Best Picture steamroller on the most popular streaming site on the planet - one that has a 40% greater market share than Amazon.
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Post by pupdurcs on Feb 21, 2020 21:21:50 GMT
That feels like a pretty big reach to explain why Ali in Moonlight did that well on the poll and Affleck in Manchester By The Sea didnt. Manchester made more money than Moonlight at the Box Office. It's streaming on Amazon, which pretty much everyone has access to and is extravagantly funded and by the richest man in the world. It's hardly an underseen underdog compared to Moonlight. But if that's what you wish to believe, more power to you Yes, because nobody would dare want to watch the movie that upset a Best Picture steamroller on the most popular streaming site on the planet - one that has a 40% greater market share than Amazon. Manchester By The Sea has a 3.0 rating out of 5 on Amazon.com Prime. Even those people who watch it on streaming don't exactly love it. Enough people have seen it. It made nearly 80 million dollars at the box office, far more than most indies of that scale can ever dream of. It is what it is....it was more a critics film. A lot of people watched it, thought it was "ok", and weren't particularly passionate about it or Affleck's performance after the fact. It happens
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Post by stephen on Feb 21, 2020 21:27:51 GMT
Manchester by the Sea may have Amazon on its side, but it was far from the biggest talking point that season. Moonlight and La La Land far eclipsed it in terms of cultural cache and, to this day, both films have held fast in the pantheon.
As for Ali versus Affleck, I think it's tough to compare the two men because a.) they were in different categories and thus have different competition, and b.) Ali went on to capitalize on his Oscar win by winning another two years later, which arguably retroactively consecrates his first win. Affleck won his Oscar in the shadow of his #metoo accusations and has probably had the most underwhelming follow-up to an Oscar win of any actor in this decade. Even Dujardin got to work with Scorsese.
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forksforest
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Post by forksforest on Dec 27, 2022 4:41:02 GMT
Amen. I don't know if i have the fortitude to go through it again but every now and then i think about certain scenes (especially that scene at the police station) and god, so haunting.
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dazed
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Post by dazed on Dec 27, 2022 4:59:10 GMT
yessir, one of my favorite performances ever
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Post by stabcaesar on Dec 27, 2022 5:17:41 GMT
Manchester By The Sea has a 3.0 rating out of 5 on Amazon.com Prime. Even those people who watch it on streaming don't exactly love it. I just saw this. It's got a shit score on Amazon because it's been review bombed. It's got 4.01 on Letterboxd and 7.8 on IMDb, aka amongst the highest of all BP nominees that year.
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 27, 2022 7:27:01 GMT
Manchester By The Sea has a 3.0 rating out of 5 on Amazon.com Prime. Even those people who watch it on streaming don't exactly love it. I just saw this. It's got a shit score on Amazon because it's been review bombed. It's got 4.01 on Letterboxd and 7.8 on IMDb, aka amongst the highest of all BP nominees that year. C'mon....no one is going to "review bomb" Manchester By The Sea. It's not a Marvel Film or Star Wars or even a film that incels would go after for being too "woke" or whatever. It's just regular degular domestic drama that regular audiences found super-overrated.Of course it's rated well Letterboxed etc....those are the same demographics as critics and Film Twitter. They drink the same kool-aid, and critics were the ones that massively overrated Manchester By The Sea in the first place. Amazon is just full of customers buying or renting the film. You are getting real opinions there from paying customers. Manchester By The Sea (or Affleck's performance) is not a film that has aged well with regular audiences.Ratings on IMDB are next to useless, imho. It's full of nerds giving 10 out of 10 to the latest superhero movie or racists giving 0 out of 10 to movies with black casts. And unlike Amazon, none of the people rating the film have to even have seen it or paid to see it.Not saying you can't be a fan of the film or Affleck in it, but I think a lot of the evidence I presented on this thread years ago (before it was randomly resurrected ) suggests that neither Manchester By The Sea nor Affleck's performance is held in particularly high regard by general audiences. It is what it is.That is all that's been said. I'll see this thread again in 2026 maybe.LOL!
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Post by pacinoyes on Dec 27, 2022 11:47:12 GMT
I could see this movie being review bombed to some degree and also some sort of revisionism / perspective at the same time - with Affleck's status as a "cancelled" person (he's not really) and the low profile he's kept making him seem forgotten.
Basically some movies owe a lot of their appeal "to the precise moment" of release - they don't need to be seen in the moment to appreciate them - Manchester is a very great movie imo with much very great acting in it (not just Affleck who I already said here is beyond amazing) - but if you look back on it, from a certain perspective - it's a lot easier to say dismissive things.
Think what Nomadland - a picture I like and had huge problems with - but could easily be obviously loathed - starred an actress on her 2nd nod who won for it - and won every freaking big Critics Award (almost) instead of a 3 time winner like McDormand - now think if she had Affleck's baggage and it didn't win BP or BD and had Lonergan's low subsequent profile too........a lot of a movies eventual place is tied to the performers history, the moment of release....... and subsequent events involving of the creators......
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Post by stabcaesar on Dec 27, 2022 12:52:45 GMT
I just saw this. It's got a shit score on Amazon because it's been review bombed. It's got 4.01 on Letterboxd and 7.8 on IMDb, aka amongst the highest of all BP nominees that year. C'mon....no one is going to "review bomb" Manchester By The Sea. It's not a Marvel Film or Star Wars or even a film that incels would go after for being too "woke" or whatever. It's just regular degular domestic drama that regular audiences found super-overrated.Of course it's rated well Letterboxed etc....those are the same demographics as critics and Film Twitter. They drink the same kool-aid, and critics were the ones that massively overrated Manchester By The Sea in the first place. Amazon is just full of customers buying or renting the film. You are getting real opinions there from paying customers. Manchester By The Sea (or Affleck's performance) is not a film that has aged well with regular audiences.Ratings on IMDB are next to useless, imho. It's full of nerds giving 10 out of 10 to the latest superhero movie or racists giving 0 out of 10 to movies with black casts. And unlike Amazon, none of the people rating the film have to even have seen it or paid to see it.Not saying you can't be a fan of the film or Affleck in it, but I think a lot of the evidence I presented on this thread years ago (before it was randomly resurrected ) suggests that neither Manchester By The Sea nor Affleck's performance is held in particularly high regard by general audiences. It is what it is.That is all that's been said. I'll see this thread again in 2026 maybe.LOL!
Right ... Letterboxd and IMDb ratings (close to 300k votes, btw) are useless, but ratings on Amazon Prime somehow are indicative of the film's popularity.
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dazed
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Post by dazed on Dec 27, 2022 14:44:03 GMT
C'mon....no one is going to "review bomb" Manchester By The Sea. It's not a Marvel Film or Star Wars or even a film that incels would go after for being too "woke" or whatever. It's just regular degular domestic drama that regular audiences found super-overrated.Of course it's rated well Letterboxed etc....those are the same demographics as critics and Film Twitter. They drink the same kool-aid, and critics were the ones that massively overrated Manchester By The Sea in the first place. Amazon is just full of customers buying or renting the film. You are getting real opinions there from paying customers. Manchester By The Sea (or Affleck's performance) is not a film that has aged well with regular audiences.Ratings on IMDB are next to useless, imho. It's full of nerds giving 10 out of 10 to the latest superhero movie or racists giving 0 out of 10 to movies with black casts. And unlike Amazon, none of the people rating the film have to even have seen it or paid to see it.Not saying you can't be a fan of the film or Affleck in it, but I think a lot of the evidence I presented on this thread years ago (before it was randomly resurrected ) suggests that neither Manchester By The Sea nor Affleck's performance is held in particularly high regard by general audiences. It is what it is.That is all that's been said. I'll see this thread again in 2026 maybe.LOL!
Right ... Letterboxd and IMDb ratings (close to 300k votes, btw) are useless, but ratings on Amazon Prime somehow are indicative of the film's popularity. and the fact that on the amazon ratings, 7/10 people give it either the highest rating or the lowest lmao. doesn’t seem like the most trustworthy site to go by. you don’t even get that disproportionate rating on imdb from zack snyders justice league or marvels endgame (around 40% of people did this). polarizing movies like mother! and spring breakers sit around only 20%
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Barbie
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Post by Barbie on Dec 28, 2022 7:25:53 GMT
I rewatched it a few weeks ago, and I still don’t understand why he won or was even nominated
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