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Post by stephen on Jul 16, 2020 23:01:28 GMT
Honestly, for all of the shit Joker cops for being a Taxi Driver rip-off, one thing that I think Phillips is able to outdo Scorsese on is just how fucking grimy and scuzzy everything is. Even the film's most ardent critics can't deny that the production design is just insanely effective in that respect. It truly made my skin crawl to see that world, and for that, at least, I really think it was a home run.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 23:10:12 GMT
Honestly, for all of the shit Joker cops for being a Taxi Driver rip-off, one thing that I think Phillips is able to outdo Scorsese on is just how fucking grimy and scuzzy everything is. Even the film's most ardent critics can't deny that the production design is just insanely effective in that respect. It truly made my skin crawl to see that world, and for that, at least, I really think it was a home run. Taxi Driver's world felt considerably realer and, I mean, both are used to reflect the mental state of their lead character, and Joker's lead character is absolutely impossible to take seriously, whereas Taxi Driver's is actually a pretty realistic depiction of an isolated obsessive getting desperate for seeing/committing some kind of tangible action on the environment he feels is suffocating him.
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Post by stephen on Jul 16, 2020 23:14:11 GMT
Honestly, for all of the shit Joker cops for being a Taxi Driver rip-off, one thing that I think Phillips is able to outdo Scorsese on is just how fucking grimy and scuzzy everything is. Even the film's most ardent critics can't deny that the production design is just insanely effective in that respect. It truly made my skin crawl to see that world, and for that, at least, I really think it was a home run. Taxi Driver's world felt considerably realer and, I mean, both are used to reflect the mental state of their lead character, and Joker's lead character is absolutely impossible to take seriously, whereas Taxi Driver's is actually a pretty realistic depiction of an isolated obsessive getting desperate for seeing/committing some kind of tangible action on the environment he feels is suffocating him. Eh, I don't know if I really need "a realistic depiction" when it comes to a movie about the origin story of the Joker. The heightened feel of Arthur's world seemingly augmented by his rapid degeneration was much more effective to me than what Scorsese was doing, but then again, I have no love for Taxi Driver at all.
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Post by countjohn on Jul 17, 2020 0:08:19 GMT
Honestly, for all of the shit Joker cops for being a Taxi Driver rip-off, one thing that I think Phillips is able to outdo Scorsese on is just how fucking grimy and scuzzy everything is. Even the film's most ardent critics can't deny that the production design is just insanely effective in that respect. It truly made my skin crawl to see that world, and for that, at least, I really think it was a home run. Taxi Driver's world felt considerably realer and, I mean, both are used to reflect the mental state of their lead character, and Joker's lead character is absolutely impossible to take seriously, whereas Taxi Driver's is actually a pretty realistic depiction of an isolated obsessive getting desperate for seeing/committing some kind of tangible action on the environment he feels is suffocating him. I really wouldn't call either one realistic and Taxi Driver is certainly "heightened" in the same way Joker is which is part of what invites all the comparisons between them. Travis is a more psychologically complex character both due to what's on the page and De Niro's performance, and also it's built in to the premise of Joker that he turns into a clown supervillain at the end so there's not as much room for nuance there which is part of why Taxi Driver is the better movie, in addition to a better script and supporting cast.
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Pasquale
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Post by Pasquale on Oct 17, 2020 15:15:24 GMT
My brother Todd Philips is not fucking around. Joaquin is a legend. What did you do you marvels?!!
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Post by Martin Stett on Nov 2, 2020 0:58:59 GMT
Finally watched it. I think y'all going on about how this paints society as the evil and Joker as a victim are dead wrong, for the same reason that all of you going on about the side characters being underdeveloped like that's a bad thing are dead wrong. This is Arthur's world, Arthur's head. This man hates himself, this man hates Thomas Wayne, this man is a self-pitying worm that will point the finger at everyone but himself to justify his hatred of the world and everything in it. Arthur fiddles as Gotham burns and it is horrifying to watch because of how much time is spent in his personal brand of hell, which consists entirely of being stuck with himself.
I'm not entirely sure that it hits every note it goes for, I'm not entirely sure something this scummy needs to be in my life, but damn if it wasn't engrossing.
On a side note: Lawrence Sher did some magnificent work. I was stunned by the photography here.
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Post by Martin Stett on Nov 2, 2020 1:04:24 GMT
Just one last thing I want to say. Between American Hustle, I, Tonya, and this, can filmmakers stop trying to BE Scorsese? It’s become a really irritating trend. But... they're all better than Scorsese?
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Post by Martin Stett on Nov 2, 2020 4:10:05 GMT
A lot of the criticisms of this are just stupid. This does not in any way justify the Joker's actions and I find it highly unlikely that a writer is going to use an insane clown as a vehicle for his own opinions. I'm not surprised because everyone is so banal and literal nowdays, but it's still annoying. I'm assuming there's a bunch of internet critics bent out of shape about the "you get what you fucking deserve" line supposedly being a justification of mass shooters or whatever. But The Joker says it. Of course he feels that way. That's why he shot him. Everything a character says isn't intended to be the writer's actual opinions being preached to the audience. With that out of the way, the movie was good. Phoenix is not as good as Ledger but is still very good and deserves a nod. Wouldn't mind a BP nomination either, I expect it to be somewhere in my top ten at the end of the year. De Niro is also good and I wouldn't mind a nod for him either but of course he also has The Irishman coming up. Probably my second favorite Batman related thing behind TDK. It really wears its influences on its sleeve (of course Taxi Driver and then Network with the media commentary and of course the shot of all the TVs at the end) and isn't as good as them but it still works. My expectations weren't even that high, I didn't think you could center a film around the Joker, but I'm glad to be wrong. I think a lot of the negative critic reviews are from people who decided they wouldn't like it in advance and are afraid people will think they're a sociopath or something if they give it a good review. Heard it was getting much better reviews in Europe which might tell you something. 8/10Spoilerific thoughts that really get into the meat of the movie-
Batman really looms large over the movie. As others have speculated, his showing up in the Pattison Batman would work perfect with it being set in the 80's. The movie really draws the parallel between the Joker and Batman. The reason some people might find him killing the guys on the subway entertaining is the same reason people like Batman, Batman just doesn't take it as far. Then there's the parallel with the radio broadcast criticizing Joker for attacking people behind a mask.
One of the keys here is that The Joker is essentially serving as an unreliable narrator. Would have been better if they hadn't spelled it out so much, but since it's a popular IP they have to make it idiot proof I guess. I think there's a lot in the movie you can take as just being the Joker's imagination. I think in the aforementioned subway scene he could have just shot random guys and imagined a situation similar to his getting beat up earlier in the movie to let off steam, there's all kinds of stuff like that.
Another thing is that I'm not sure the Joker is as insane in this as he lets on. When the cop asks if the laughing is part of his act he says "what do you think?" and then does a slapstick gag where he bumps into the door. I don't think the movie is trying to write him off as just a mentally ill guy who needs help. He knows the consequences of his actions and does them anyway because he's evil.
He's a bad person from the get-go. Everyone viewing this as "society made him do it" excuse making for mass shooters isn't paying attention. Going back to the "you get what you fucking deserve line" the Joker obviously means that they really deserve it, but you can look at it as "deserving" in the sense of being a logical outgrowth, not morally deserving something. That's not any kind of defense for the things those people do, but an indictment of everyone feigning shock when it's a natural outgrowth of things being the way they are.
Nice use of Modern Times for absolutely no reason, though. I think the point that the Wayne's and all the rich people are enjoying laughing at the movie but oblivious to the social commentary which is an indictment of people like them. All of this. I found this a fascinating film precisely because it implies that everything "society" does to Arthur is just an excuse for him do what he wants, and then he can whine that it isn't his fault later. He can absolve himself of every crime, because it's his mother's fault, it's Murray's fault, it's Wayne's fault, it is everybody but him. The struggle is that it never leaves his headspace, which is a place nobody should ever want to be in. I don't find anything sympathetic about Arthur. He builds his own world where he is a great comedian, where he is loved, where his actions change a world. Of course the world he creates is simply one of violence and chaos, because he loathes himself so much that he can't envision anything else.
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Post by jakesully on Nov 9, 2020 22:05:07 GMT
Finally watched it. I think y'all going on about how this paints society as the evil and Joker as a victim are dead wrong, for the same reason that all of you going on about the side characters being underdeveloped like that's a bad thing are dead wrong. This is Arthur's world, Arthur's head. This man hates himself, this man hates Thomas Wayne, this man is a self-pitying worm that will point the finger at everyone but himself to justify his hatred of the world and everything in it. Arthur fiddles as Gotham burns and it is horrifying to watch because of how much time is spent in his personal brand of hell, which consists entirely of being stuck with himself. I'm not entirely sure that it hits every note it goes for, I'm not entirely sure something this scummy needs to be in my life, but damn if it wasn't engrossing. On a side note: Lawrence Sher did some magnificent work. I was stunned by the photography here. ^^^ Dude, nice write up and I honestly never thought of it that way. I really liked it when I saw it in theaters quite a bit. Gonna have to give it a re watch now.
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