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Post by Brother Fease on Mar 8, 2017 4:17:45 GMT
I hear people constantly complaining about performances being deemed leading, when they really should be supporting, and vice verse. Prime examples are Anthony Hopkins winning for leading, even though he's in the film for less than 30 minutes, or Sharon Stone getting nominated for lead for Casino, or Viola Davis being nominated for supporting, even though the same performance deemed as leading on Broadway.
If we're going to make it objective rather than subjective, how should the rules dictate?
Here's my idea:
Performance is considered leading, if (a) The performance is top billed. You appear first on the credits, you're a lead performance. The only exception is if the cast is listed in alphabetical order, then the rule doesn't apply. OR (b) The actor/actress is featured on screen for at least 60% of the film.
Performance is considered supporting, if (a) The performance is not listed as top billing. OR (b) the actor/actress is features on screen for less than 60% of the time.
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Post by cornnetto on Mar 8, 2017 4:33:39 GMT
I would say no, let it be a mess.
1) Let people give the you still winning in lead with what would have ended supporting with clear rules honor for Hopkins and Brando type of performance, award is all honoring people letting flexibility to the voting body to do so is usually for the better and more fun.
2) Make something to talk about, clarity remove a subject of conversation surrounding them.
3) I doubt any rules will achieve to do much better than the current mess, clear one would remove frustration to some for the category but would probably be overall worst I would think, running a experiment could be nice thought, to see what the result look like. For sure A line count metric would be a bad one and your percentage of the time is a better one, but I have some doubt on the result, really clear supporting would end up in lead just for being on screen, clear lead that are missing by 2% would still create issues. And a lot of movie will have no lead I suspect. Billing cannot really be used.
A group of committee (say 10 group of 3 people) could work thought, watching the 330 or so eligible movie to place people could work and give the best result I imagine, you cannot use random academy member thought, too much of a boring job, better goes with pro's that already watched almost all of them already like critics. Still 100% subjective, but all voters getting indication from a group, instead of a split influenced by campaigning.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Mar 8, 2017 4:35:46 GMT
60% is a bit much. By that standard, I don't think Russell Crowe would be considered the lead in Gladiator and he's pretty much unanimously considered lead. I think if you were to make objective rulings (which I don't think are practical), then it should be around 40% with requests of exceptions having to go through a specially selected committee that is screened the film in question to vote on where they define category placements. Billing shouldn't matter, that has as much if not more to do with marketing and actor egos than whether or not the performance is leading (otherwise we'd have Marlon Brando as the lead in Superman).
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Mar 8, 2017 4:55:23 GMT
There should simply be a committee to review individual cases. You can't make them objective.
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Post by countjohn on Mar 8, 2017 5:11:04 GMT
Screentime has nothing to do with being lead. It's who the story is structured around. There are times where the character with the most screentime is not the lead character.
Billing is also silly because A. It has more to do with who the biggest star is than anything else (was Brando the lead in Superman and Apocalypse Now?) B. More and more movies are doing it alphabetically now, so it would almost be a moot point C. What about co-leads?
Ultimately it's subjective and trying to come up with objective standards for it is inherently silly. Personally I don't really have a huge problem with category fraud either. If you have two great performances in lead and a bunch of just good ones in supporting, why not move one of the great performances to the other category to award both great performances? Makes sense to me.
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Post by stephen on Mar 8, 2017 5:34:45 GMT
There is no verifiable metric for category placement.
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Post by pendragon on Mar 8, 2017 8:32:58 GMT
There should simply be a committee to review individual cases. You can't make them objective. I like this idea. The writers branch already does this in cases where something being original or adapted isn't clear.
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spiralstatic
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Post by spiralstatic on Mar 8, 2017 10:08:21 GMT
I think for a performance to be considered a leading role, the overall film should be your character's story, from your character's perspective. You can have more than one leading role in a film and you can have a large role in a film which is supporting because even though an actor is in the films lot it is never their story. But if the film is from your character's perspective, for the majority of the film (say, more than 50% is your character's film, regardless of screen time) then it is a leading role. Which I think should be simple and obvious, usually.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 10:16:34 GMT
billing aint a criteria. brad ain't a lead in babel for one.
for a perf to be considered lead, it must be determined who the story is about, or by whose pov it is being told. freeman would be supporting in shawshank easily if the movie wasn't from his pov, and robbins wont be a lead in the same movie if the storys not about him. if a character doesnt satisfy either criteria, he/she is supporting. ezpz
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Post by Kirk-Picard on Mar 8, 2017 12:19:43 GMT
Sure
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Zeb31
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Post by Zeb31 on Mar 8, 2017 15:37:11 GMT
Seconding what Stephen said: there's no objective criterion you can blindly apply to all films in order to determine category placement. Not only will you get countless exceptions to each rule (with billing in particular being a very flawed metric, since it's far less about character prominence than about star power and contractual negotiation), that's all subjective anyway. There are borderline cases like Waltz in Django Unchained, for whom you can make a case in both categories, and others for which every metric is unreliable. For example, most of the board seemed to agree that Gyllenhaal was a lead in Nocturnal Animals (and his screentime certainly points in that direction), but I still see him as undoubtedly supporting. The manuscript storyline makes up for around 70% of the novel Ford's film is based on, but it's still 100% about Adams's character, even the segments in which she's not the direct focus. And yet most objective criteria would indicate that Gyllenhaal should get the leading treatment -- and some might actually lead one to believe that it's Adams who's supporting.
Same goes for Comedy/Drama placements at the Globes, by the way. I will never understand why The Martian's placement was so controversial (especially considering that the likes of Her, Before Midnight and Inside Llewyn Davis were all ruled comedies just two years before with little to no outrage), but others will defend that it's a drama with the same vehemence that I do that it's a comedy. Others such as, you know, the man who directed it. It's subjective.
With that said, I wouldn't be opposed to the Academy stipulating a given screentime percentage above which a performance is automatically classified as leading and one below which it is automatically ruled supporting, with an appeals board to judge individual cases. That wouldn't be infallible either, but it'd be a start.
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Post by cornnetto on Mar 8, 2017 16:34:27 GMT
It was probably not because it was specially less a comedy than the average movie making that category, I mean Joy was there too the same year.
1) Seen as a kiss of death by some, many think that getting in comedy at the globe when you are borderline hurt your chance at the Oscar, that would be why Scott was piss that the Martian was in Comedy or that the Sony leaked e-mail show they pushed American Hustle in drama and that Russels was a bit piss to end up in comedy and always pushing to show in the globes movie clip that it is not a comedy. The Martian was one of the possible winner at one point last year, so that pissed some people for the globes to hurt is chance, while the other you named were probably never seen as probable winner.
2) Scott was vocal about being against Globe voter voting it in comedy.
That could work, a committee classing it for each of for the 330 or so movies would be an hassle, but doing it only for those who ask for an appeal (I would imagine half the movies would not bother knowing voters will not even watch it) could work. I think the actor would like it for the most part, people that get vote splitted between voter that vote them lead and other supporting are hurt by it and also it would remove the burden on them to choose and be seen as category fraud.
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Post by marvelass on Mar 8, 2017 17:07:39 GMT
Apples and oranges. Mary Alice, who played 'Rose' in the original 1987 Broadway production, won the Tony Award for Best Featured Actress, their version of supporting. Davis was nominated in the lead category for the 2010 revival for various reasons. For one, she already was a big name by that point, having already scored a Tony win (King Hedley II) and Oscar nomination (Doubt) and been in some high-profile films. Plus, her name was listed on the marquee (alongside Denzel's) which automatically makes you lead, in the eyes of the Committee, regardless of the size of your role. Likewise, if you have a sizable part but are not credited above the title, you are deemed featured.
However, you can appeal to the Committee. For example, in 1975, A Chorus Line was made up largely of unknowns, so none of them got marquee billing. Naturally, they all would be considered for featured actor/actress. Plus, it's a truly ensemble piece. But Donna McKechnie (who played 'Cassie') and the ACL producers petitioned for her to be put in lead, because they already had Priscilla Lopez ('Diana') and Kelly Bishop ('Sheila') vying for featured actress. They won their case and both McKechnie and Bishop won their respective categories.
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spiralstatic
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Post by spiralstatic on Mar 8, 2017 17:33:56 GMT
For example, most of the board seemed to agree that Gyllenhaal was a lead in Nocturnal Animals ... Really? I'd definitely have him as supporting! There can of course be exceptions, but if you say it is who the story is about, I think it is usually utterly obvious who the lead character(s) are. That said, I do wonder how many people voting for awards actually even bother watching all of the performances, hmm....
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Post by Zeb31 on Mar 8, 2017 17:41:13 GMT
The ICC organizers polled the board on where to place several borderline/controversial performances, and when it came to Gyllenhaal, leading won quite comfortably, I recall.
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