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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 8:00:37 GMT
Is he any good in Kafka?
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 24, 2019 8:40:57 GMT
He's good in it, the film gets a bit (or more) convoluted as it goes along though ..........like a baffling puzzle.
He's one of the worlds finest actors. People talk BS all the time about actors on here but he had a streak in the 80s-early 90s that was astonishing - it was the Ironsaissance - um, the English speaking male actor of the decade.........he's one of 4 living guys with a Best Actor Oscar and a Best Actor Tony .........he's one of a handful of male Triple Crown Winners too........and he almost has that for lead roles which is even harder.
Dead Ringers #1 and I'd say Reversal of Fortune, Betrayal, Lolita, Moonlighting but he has a few you could argue for in that top 5. World class actor.....and he worked a vein of acting too which makes him fascinating to watch too - no actor ever said more about male sexuality/obsession than he did in those many roles (M. Butterfly, Lolita, Damage, Dead Ringers, Betrayal etc)
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 24, 2019 9:59:48 GMT
A fine, somewhat souless actor (sometimes you need souless characters in films, so Irons can be well cast at times). Solid craftsman on stage and film who got elevated beyond his talents. Great elecution and fine technique you'll get in most English stage trained actors of his generation. But again, that stuff has always been some what overrated in British actors, particularly by Americans easily impressed by standardised English stage training.
Somewhat limited range wise (the same has been said of Kevin Spacey, but Irons is far more limited than even Spacey). He plays cold, aristocratic Euro assholes to perfection (possibly because he is one. He would have been great in Phantom Thread), but beyond that he really seems to struggle. It's maybe why by the time the likes Gary Oldman and Daniel Day-Lewis, with their protean range, emerged from Britain in the late 80's and early 90's, Irons had already begun to seem limited, if not outmoded.
His reputation remains respectable based on his 80's prestige and awards won, but these days no young actors in Britain come through the ranks wanting to be the "next Jeremy Irons" (except perhaps his son), which says a lot about how limited his overall impact turned out to be.
1) Dead Ringers 2) Reversal Of Fortune 3) The Mission 4) Lolita 5) Damage
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 24, 2019 10:18:03 GMT
stephen - I'd be curious what your thoughts are on the "link" between British actors - the class between the great 60s group and the 80s/90s Oldman/DDL/Fiennes group to right now. I don't think we've talked about that specifically before but we do talk about the current crop of actors. Irons and Kingsley are those ones who bridge the 60s UK actors with the 80s then 90s and I see huge influence there in the sense that Kingsley played outside his ethnic group and Irons typified it - so together they did something odd they were British actors who were clearly British - but Oldman and DDL eventually seem closer to the US film method actors - though they weren't at first certainly and not Fiennes (again, in a way, not necessarily "all" the ways). I see lots more of it now going back to Irons/Kingsley now with Whishaw and Hiddleston and Cumberbatch etc. - what are your thoughts there - these things go in cycles and I see that actually happening right now even though Oldman and DDL just played as British as they could too! Also a curveball - do you think Irons could have played Plainview, if not who could have - Kingsley or Duvall? - depending when it was made I mean? I think we've discussed that before but I can't recall what your thoughts were.
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Post by stephen on Apr 24, 2019 12:41:11 GMT
I've said before that Irons definitely deserves more credit than he gets. I think, like Ben Kingsley, his willingness to accept roles in schlocky films like Dungeons & Dragons has worked against him. But I do think that unlike Kingsley, Irons doesn't take himself nearly as seriously, which is strange considering that you'd think he absolutely would, given his mannerisms and style. I don't think there has ever been an actor who exuded more gravitas than Irons, really. I think that his persona makes people think he's stuffy, pretentious and unapproachable, even if I don't think that's actually the case.
But if we're judging his work as an actor, Irons definitely has the goods.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 12:46:19 GMT
I'm not sure about "best" - I don't think I've seen enough of his film work to make a call - but my favorite is definitely The French Lieutenant's Woman. Streep gets all of the credit for that film (I get it), but it's definitely a two-hander, and Irons is just wonderful in it. His first (and only!!!) BAFTA Film nomination.
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demille
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Post by demille on Apr 24, 2019 12:56:48 GMT
"....and he worked a vein of acting too which makes him fascinating to watch too - no actor ever said more about male sexuality/obsession than he did in those many roles (M. Butterfly, Lolita, Damage, Dead Ringers, Betrayal etc)." pacinoyes
I totally agree with the thought here. I find his work with Cronenberg and Malle, in particular, to be really interesting. There is something about his performances in those films, and how he elicits his character's sexual obsession, that is disturbing and fascinating. It is fascinating in its peverseness.
I think these peformances are in a similar vein to James Stewart in Vertigo.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 24, 2019 13:22:34 GMT
I've said before that Irons definitely deserves more credit than he gets. I think, like Ben Kingsley, his willingness to accept roles in schlocky films like Dungeons & Dragons has worked against him. That definitely is not it at all. Kingsley can be ridiculously indiscriminate in his choices. Irons while on occasion has held his nose and taken a Hollywood paycheck for something like Dungeons & Dragons and Eragon (which are long forgotten flops nobody judges him by anyway), in general he has one of the most literary and pretentious filmographies this side of Ralph Fiennes. Irons doesn't do enough money grabbing shit to get judged on that stuff. Since 2004 alone he's done The Merchant Of Venice, Being Julia, Mathilde, Kingdom Of Heaven, Casanova, Inland Empire,Margin Call, The Hollow Crown, The Borgias, Their Finest, Elizabeth I.... Irons bread and butter till this day are prestigious costume dramas and arthouse fare, with the very occasional paycheck studio film. He's just kind of a one trick pony (a prestigious one mind) and for lack of a better term there's that "souless" quality that renders him an unrelatable screen presence in much of his work. It's why he's so often cast as autocrats and aristocrats. They don't need to be relatable. His stage honed gravitas and elecution keep him very employable in a certain kind of role, but he lost the element of surprise decades ago. It's become much harder for him to impress as he doesn't have the range of some of his similarly esteemed peers.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Apr 24, 2019 19:25:27 GMT
I love him to bits. These are my favorite performances.
1. Dead Ringers 2. Reversal of Fortune 3. Margin Call (this one's underrated) 4. Damage 5. The Mission
with a huge honorable mention for The Lion King. His performance of Scar makes me wish he had starred in a gay romance, at least once.
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Post by TerryMontana on Apr 24, 2019 19:53:55 GMT
W O R L D C L A S S ! ! !In no particular order The Merchant of Venice Reversal Of Fortune The Mission Lolita The Pink Panther 2 (kidding ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/MZ2eSp2yC2LljdVTLpdl.gif) )
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Post by stephen on Apr 24, 2019 22:36:30 GMT
His performance of Scar makes me wish he had starred in a gay romance, at least once. M. Butterfly.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Apr 24, 2019 23:00:51 GMT
His performance of Scar makes me wish he had starred in a gay romance, at least once. M. Butterfly. It's Cronenberg and it's gay? How have I never heard of this? Still, the reviews aren't encouraging. And apparently John Lone is no Jaye Davidson.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 24, 2019 23:06:25 GMT
It's Cronenberg and it's gay? How have I never heard of this? Still, the reviews aren't encouraging. And apparently John Lone is no Jaye Davidson. Well count me down for a recommendation. It is very different from the play because the central conceit of the play cannot really be done in a film - so Cronenberg made the film rather about self-deception, self-delusion and guilt - which is not in the play really. Very fine film, and one I think that was profoundly misunderstood tbh. Many hate it and use their hatred of it to bash Cronenberg, Lone and the play itself - I think they've missed the point Cronenberg was making and how he altered the source material. Regardless, Irons is his usual ace self .......
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Post by Mattsby on Apr 24, 2019 23:48:32 GMT
Moonlighting Dead Ringers Betrayal Damage M Butterfly Looking at his imdb, just hit me I haven't seen any of his TV work ![:gonemad:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/1i_vReyDmEdV6yn5zMWP.gif) and they all look good - Langrishe Go Down, Brideshead Revisited, Fitzgerald, Elizabeth I, Georgia O’Keeffe, The Borgias, etc. Nobody puts these in their Top 5s? Which are the best of the bunch? pacinoyesMy earliest memory of Irons is trying to impersonate his voice after seeing Die Hard with a Vengeance ninety times and Lion King. He does have a way with dialogue, it isn't just his molten cadence, he can wring a helluva lot out of a simple line. There's that....but my favorite quality is how he reacts, with his eyes. You see it all over Betrayal and Damage - with Kingsley and Binoche at the dinner table - how he consumes or retreats, with his looking, carefully aware and "performing" so as not to clue the others (this is merged and challenged in M Butterfly), bc of course what he's feeling, prohibitive desire, is unstoppable. He brilliantly evokes space and a sparring partner in Dead Ringers. But my fav - the one I think about most often actually - such a subtle, detailed, observant performance - is Moonlighting. ![](https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-0/p280x280/58543133_320532681966871_1682370210608185344_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=b48d204c9f11e30a6212958525ef324a&oe=5D2B0027)
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Post by stephen on Apr 25, 2019 0:02:00 GMT
It's Cronenberg and it's gay? How have I never heard of this? Still, the reviews aren't encouraging. And apparently John Lone is no Jaye Davidson. Well count me down for a recommendation. It is very different from the play because the central conceit of the play cannot really be done in a film - so Cronenberg made the film rather about self-deception, self-delusion and guilt - which is not in the play really. Very fine film, and one I think that was profoundly misunderstood tbh. Many hate it and use their hatred of it to bash Cronenberg, Lone and the play itself - I think they've missed the point Cronenberg was making and how he altered the source material. Regardless, Irons is his usual ace self ....... M. Butterfly is extremely underrated.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Apr 25, 2019 0:12:33 GMT
Looking at his imdb, just hit me I haven't seen any of his TV work ![:gonemad:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/1i_vReyDmEdV6yn5zMWP.gif) and they all look good - Langrishe Go Down, Brideshead Revisited, Fitzgerald, Elizabeth I, Georgia O’Keeffe, The Borgias, etc. Nobody puts these in their Top 5s? I watched the first season of The Borgias and Irons was definitely the best thing about it. In hindsight I probably would have included it in my list but I always forget about the show. At least the first season is pretty unremarkable, but come to think of it I'm pretty sure I got halfway through the second too.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 25, 2019 0:29:26 GMT
Mattsby - some of that TV stuff is top notch - Brideshead Revisited is a classic (and Olivier AND Gielgud!) and Elizabeth I is his Emmy turn - opposite Mirren and in The Borgias he has great fun. I also like his 2 episode arc on L&O: SVU - what is with that show getting Irons and Huppert - I can't stand that show but damn......... Good call on that consumes and retreats thing and another of his great acting motifs is when he consciously chooses madness (several roles) - he would have been an amazing Dr. Frankenstein ![:laugh:](//storage.proboards.com/6692321/images/30ulL7PvEvGt97femFHx.gif) - one of my favorites in that way is in Betrayal where he gets great line after line (by Pinter no less) - "I should have blackened you in your white wedding dress"........at another point he gives one of my favorite line readings when he's asked what he's "trying" to say and he responds he's not trying to say anything, he's saying exactly what he means ........of course we see that latter scene first ..........and by the time of the wedding dress line we of course understand the implication is that he was not always so precise or clear in language, or motives, or purposes.
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demille
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Post by demille on Apr 25, 2019 8:36:57 GMT
It's Cronenberg and it's gay? How have I never heard of this? Still, the reviews aren't encouraging. And apparently John Lone is no Jaye Davidson. Well count me down for a recommendation. It is very different from the play because the central conceit of the play cannot really be done in a film - so Cronenberg made the film rather about self-deception, self-delusion and guilt - which is not in the play really. Very fine film, and one I think that was profoundly misunderstood tbh. Many hate it and use their hatred of it to bash Cronenberg, Lone and the play itself - I think they've missed the point Cronenberg was making and how he altered the source material. Regardless, Irons is his usual ace self ....... I think M. Butterfly successfully accomplished Cronenberg's aim for the project, and that the casting of John Lone was central to this aim. For whilst Lone has a pronounced femininity as a male, when he portrays a female he has a pronounced masculinity. This really foregrounds the self-deception and self-delusion that runs throughout the film, as mentioned above. How was it that Irons's character did not see what was right in front of him? How could he not see what the viewer could see. Instead, he saw what he wanted to see, and not what was there in reality; and this desire has deeper cultural-political significance in the film's context, imo.
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Post by eyebrowmorroco on Apr 30, 2019 14:23:47 GMT
Note to Zack Snyder: Alfred CANNOT be sexier than Batman.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on May 28, 2024 5:31:32 GMT
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