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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 16:33:30 GMT
Cynthia Erivo's casting as Harriet Tubman has been the subject of some controversy, as she is British and not a descendant of enslaved African Americans. Does this matter to you at all (particularly since she is playing such a prolific American icon)? Or do you feel that the job of actors is to become something other than themselves, so it's a nonissue?
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Post by pacinoyes on Feb 13, 2019 16:49:28 GMT
Honestly, this is a favorite topic of mine and this board doesn't want to discuss ( stephen will, Mattsby will but for the most part we don't want to) and would rather do polls. Check our "Whitewash" thread too which severely raises contradictions like this too where you have to sort out a lot of issues and gets into some touchy, uncomfortable stuff. In general I don't have a problem with it but it depresses me for acting. Making a Lincoln biopic - oh get us DDL or Neeson (wtf?), doing MLK - get David Oyelowo - no American for playing American icons - but making a Churchill biopic, you damn sure better get a British person because it would be ridiculous otherwise right (for the most part I know Americans have played him but the movie, nope)? I can't stand that aspect but in a macro way not a micro way........actors act, they pretend, that's what they do. I don't have a problem with Ervio as Tubman, I have a problem with the general overall hypocrisy of it though. |
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 13, 2019 16:59:03 GMT
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Post by ibbi on Feb 13, 2019 16:59:57 GMT
Not even a little bit, no. In a lot of cases you might even be able to make the case that if playing a famous historical figure then it might be better in a way to cast someone from another country than that person as they'd be less likely to play the legend more likely to play the person (assuming that's what said film is going for).
The only time I think it becomes an issue (beforehand, if they nail it then they nail it and nobody should be complaining after the fact) is if you're playing some famous figure who is 20th century recent, and there is extensive audio of them... Then I think you come under pressure to get the accent right just for the sake of some authenticity (again, if authenticity is what the filmmakers are aiming for).
To link that in to pacinoyes's point above, for whatever reason we Brits manage to generally get you guys accents a lot more right than you get ours (Right? Correct me if I'm wrong!) For an example behold the comic monstrosity about to win Best Actor.
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Post by stephen on Feb 13, 2019 17:07:21 GMT
Not even a little bit, no. In a lot of cases you might even be able to make the case that if playing a famous historical figure then it might be better in a way to cast someone from another country than that person as they'd be less likely to play the legend more likely to play the person (assuming that's what said film is going for). The only time I think it becomes an issue (beforehand, if they nail it then they nail it and nobody should be complaining after the fact) is if you're playing some famous figure who is 20th century recent, and there is extensive audio of them... Then I think you come under pressure to get the accent right just for the sake of some authenticity (again, if authenticity is what the filmmakers are aiming for). To link that in to pacinoyes's point above, for whatever reason we Brits manage to generally get you guys accents a lot more right than you get ours (Right? Correct me if I'm wrong!) For an example behold the comic monstrosity about to win Best Actor. I pretty much agree with this, although I'd argue that the British will fuck up an American accent more often than they'd like to admit. They must teach the same weird generic Southern drawl that oh-vur-ee-nun-see-ate's ev-errrr worrrrd at RADA. But yeah, going back to the original point: nationality matters very little to me unless it is particularly tied to ethnicity. For instance, it wouldn't matter if you had a British actor of Mexican heritage playing a Mexican, but if you had a Guatemalan actor with no Mexican heritage playing a Mexican, then it gets into dodgier territory. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 17:20:28 GMT
ibbi - I'm not overly precious about accents and I can generally always tell when someone really isn't American playing American, but I agree that as a whole, Brits and Australians do American better than the reverse. Felicity Jones is really the only one (coming to mind) who I think is genuinely terrible at it (and, yet another example of a Brit playing an American icon...) What did you think of Emma Stone's English accent? pacinoyes - There was absolutely no controversy surrounding Streep's casting as Thatcher, though. And ibbi's post above is the only negative thing I've heard about Malek's performance as Mercury (in terms of the authenticity of his accent work). I think it may depend on the caliber of the actor being cast? Relative unknowns from the UK and Australia are allowed to play American icons all the time, but I doubt the same is true for Americans doing the reverse.
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Post by ibbi on Feb 13, 2019 17:24:40 GMT
Emma Stone was awesome, but then she was playing someone from 300 years in the past, and that's the accent everyone seems to manage okay. Ask 'em to speak like some regular Joe from the here and now and it's usually a different story.
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Post by ibbi on Feb 13, 2019 17:25:57 GMT
Though I will say I do think Nivola and McAdams were both just REALLY good in Disobedience.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 17:27:32 GMT
Emma Stone was awesome, but then she was playing someone from 300 years in the past, and that's the accent everyone seems to manage okay. Ask 'em to speak like some regular Joe from the here and now and it's usually a different story. I think she picked up on the nuances of the accent that most Americans miss, though - I was totally impressed. I would have had no idea she was American had I not known. |
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avnermoriarti
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Post by avnermoriarti on Feb 13, 2019 17:57:32 GMT
No, and what ibbi said is on point, I think a lot of times the casting of an outsider benefits as it doesn't come with a lot of baggage, and that goes to directing as well ( Larrain/Jackie is a good example), on the other hand if it's a contemporary character there's a good possiblity they f:ck it up, Benicio de Toro in Traffic, great performance, wrong accent, he got wrong the border, which I don't know if has anything to do with what Stephen said, in this case a Puerto rican playing mexican with no heritage, maybe is just a case of his accent being just too thick, bug his perfance is so good overall that I can't see anyone else doing it. It's always up for discussion but almost always I don't have a problem.
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Post by ibbi on Feb 13, 2019 19:49:18 GMT
No, and what ibbi said is on point, I think a lot of times the casting of an outsider benefits as it doesn't come with a lot of baggage, and that goes to directing as well ( Larrain/Jackie is a good example), on the other hand if it's a contemporary character there's a good possiblity they f:ck it up, Benicio de Toro in Traffic, great performance, wrong accent, he got wrong the border, which I don't know if has anything to do with what Stephen said, in this case a Puerto rican playing mexican with no heritage, maybe is just a case of his accent being just too thick, bug his perfance is so good overall that I can't see anyone else doing it. It's always up for discussion but almost always I don't have a problem. Which is another interesting aspect of the whole accent conversation. If you don't understand the language they're speaking they could be speaking in any accent, and you'll never be any the wiser. The accent doesn't factor into the equation for foreign performances, and yet we put so much emphasis on it when in a language we understand. It's an aspect of the actors performance that essentially is specific to the person watching it and what languages and accent they're familiar with. Is a person more or less able to make an objective judgement of a performance based on the languages they speak and accents they are familiar with? Is Benicio Del Toro in Traffic essentially the Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins of Mexico? |
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Post by bob-coppola on Feb 13, 2019 23:11:04 GMT
I really, really don't care. You could have idk Miley Cyrus playing Queen Elizabeth and I wouldn't mind if she delievered a good performance. It's not like being born in a given country - something quite arbitrary - would make you instantly more connected to everyone who was born there, or would make you understand more someone who was also born there. When playing a part, all you need is credibility - and being born somewhere doesn't make you credible in a part. I mean, I suppose if you would search for actors to play a certain part in a certain country, but that shouldn't be a rule. I don't think Erivo or someone like Kaluuya shouldn't be able to play an american part because their ancestors weren't american slaves. They already have the same ethnicity, what else do you want? They look the part, they're not offending anyone and they are just as able to understand and empathize with a role as an american would. Should only the heirs to the british throne play characters in The Crown? And about accent, well... Personally speaking, I don't pay attention to accents. I'm a fluent English speaker, but I'm not native - so maybe that plays a part in my reasoning -, but it all comes down to credibility. If you're playing a known, recent figure, one everyone knows what they sound like, you should have to nail their voice and accent. So yeah, if you're playing Queen E., maybe you shouldn't sound like a Valley girl. I think 60% of why I think Portman was the perfect Jackie is due to her voice work: you can't separate Jackie O. to how she talked. But fictional characters, like Lawrence's supposed slippery Brooklyn accent in American Hustle... I don't think I ever noticed that. Hell, I probably wouldn't even know the difference between a Brooklyn or a Harlem accent  |
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 13, 2019 23:25:46 GMT
All this talk about accents. I just want to say that if you go anywhere in America, you'll find an eclectic mix of accents from all over. There is no American accent. If you go to the Midwest, you'll find people with Southern accents and Northern accents and all other accents. I'm frequently asked if I'm Irish due to my accent, as is my sister. Both of us are originally from California and now Virginia, and we have never been to Ireland. A British woman I worked with said I sounded like I'm from Kent (wherever that is). America is a hodgepodge of voices, and zeroing in on that is silly.
For figures whose voices are well known, it's a little different... but I'd rather have somebody make a good character than do a good impersonation.
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Post by MsMovieStar on Feb 13, 2019 23:37:08 GMT
Oh honey, this reminds me of the Carmen Miranda debacle during the Second World War. To honor and publicize The Good Neighbor Policy with Latin America, Twentieth Century-Fox made and distributed a series of movies with Miranda, Down Argentine Way; Week-End in Havana; That Night in Rio that were so off the mark that they caused outrage in the countries they depicted to the extent that some cinemas were destroyed... But in the US they were huge hits, enough to make her one of the highest paid performers of the 1940s. I guess any filmaker worth his/her salf should strive for some authenticity, unless it's pure comedy. |
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avnermoriarti
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Post by avnermoriarti on Feb 14, 2019 5:10:39 GMT
No, and what ibbi said is on point, I think a lot of times the casting of an outsider benefits as it doesn't come with a lot of baggage, and that goes to directing as well ( Larrain/Jackie is a good example), on the other hand if it's a contemporary character there's a good possiblity they f:ck it up, Benicio de Toro in Traffic, great performance, wrong accent, he got wrong the border, which I don't know if has anything to do with what Stephen said, in this case a Puerto rican playing mexican with no heritage, maybe is just a case of his accent being just too thick, bug his perfance is so good overall that I can't see anyone else doing it. It's always up for discussion but almost always I don't have a problem. Which is another interesting aspect of the whole accent conversation. If you don't understand the language they're speaking they could be speaking in any accent, and you'll never be any the wiser. The accent doesn't factor into the equation for foreign performances, and yet we put so much emphasis on it when in a language we understand. It's an aspect of the actors performance that essentially is specific to the person watching it and what languages and accent they're familiar with. Is a person more or less able to make an objective judgement of a performance based on the languages they speak and accents they are familiar with? Is Benicio Del Toro in Traffic essentially the Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins of Mexico? Well, I wouldn't exactly say that Del Toro did something as neglectable as van Dyke, lol, he just sound colombian with a little bit of north of mexico, stretching a bit the words, actually when I saw the film for the first time back in 2000 took me a while to understand all that was not happening in a South American country. And to your point, who is capable to say which acor nailed it, that's why I just don't mind it that much, it has to be really special, like van Dike or Nick Nolte in Lorenzo's Oil for me to just don't care for it, a friend of mine who's chinese said that Zhao Tao's accent in Mountain May Departs ( one of my favourite performances of its year ) told me there's no way she could speak that way given where things are taking place, but didn't affect the performance to me, and not to mention those who are dubbed, like Lancaster in The Leopard, so better leave it like that. |
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Post by agent69 on Feb 14, 2019 20:59:59 GMT
No. That "concern" goes to the same trash bin as recent controversies about trans and gay characters being played by straight characters.
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Post by AKenjiB on Feb 15, 2019 15:32:47 GMT
I don’t think I could emphasize how little nationality in casting means to me. I remember angry comments about a Canadian playing Neil Armstrong in First Man but I seriously don’t give a shit if the actor does a good job. Liam Neeson, Ralph Fiennes and Ben Kingsley all play different nationalities in Schindler’s List. Doesn’t make their performances any less memorable.
For what it’s worth, I can understand a desire for “authentic” casting and how one might wanna prioritize that. Like getting a kid from Miami for Moonlight instead of some Hollywood child star may have helped. I just don’t think it’s a requirement or grounds for controversy. I never actually saw Memoirs of a Geisha but I remember there was a big fuss over non-Japanese actors playing Japanese characters. I’m half-Japanese and that personally doesn’t bother me. At least they were Asian, haha. If a half-Chinese actor was cast to play me in a movie, I’d be fine with that as long as they were good.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Feb 15, 2019 15:47:18 GMT
For me it's simple: Let the Welsh play the English, the English play the Irish, the Irish play the Scots, and the Scots play the Italians.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Feb 15, 2019 15:54:02 GMT
I don’t think I could emphasize how little nationality in casting means to me. I remember angry comments about a Canadian playing Neil Armstrong in First Man but I seriously don’t give a shit if the actor does a good job. Liam Neeson, Ralph Fiennes and Ben Kingsley all play different nationalities in Schindler’s List. Doesn’t make their performances any less memorable. For what it’s worth, I can understand a desire for “authentic” casting and how one might wanna prioritize that. Like getting a kid from Miami for Moonlight instead of some Hollywood child star may have helped. I just don’t think it’s a requirement or grounds for controversy. I never actually saw Memoirs of a Geisha but I remember there was a big fuss over non-Japanese actors playing Japanese characters. I’m half-Japanese and that personally doesn’t bother me. At least they were Asian, haha. If a half-Chinese actor was cast to play me in a movie, I’d be fine with that as long as they were good. I agree with most of what you said. In Moonstruck, Cher had no Italian blood (she's half Armenian, so Asian), just like Dukakis and that Russian actor who played the grandfather (they were European at least), but they all did a good job. It's peculiar how DeNiro (who's from central Italy ancestors) spoke Italian in The godfather American version, but he was dubbed for the Italian market. |
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Feb 15, 2019 15:55:43 GMT
I genuinely couldn't care less. I think the most important thing is that you cast the best available actor.
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Feb 15, 2019 15:56:55 GMT
For me it's simple: Let the Welsh play the English, the English play the Irish, the Irish play the Scots, and the Scots play the Italians. Now you're just listing 6 Nations fixtures. |
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Feb 15, 2019 19:58:23 GMT
the quick lazy answer: it obviously depends. In the case of Erivo, hell no. But cast an American to play James Bond and I will riot.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Feb 16, 2019 15:43:20 GMT
Nope.
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