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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 16, 2019 15:22:02 GMT
See and that to me is moving the goalposts in a different way - in Bigelow's film it could be dropped and the film doesn't suffer much, in Lee's it cannot be - it's restructures his failed film - it is the scene everyone talks about and because there is no cinematic corollary to it, it is uniquely bad. He was "building to it" isn't right either - he was building to a scene he didn't write, direct, edit? Ok, I pass.
The Schrader example misses the mark because there's a difference with real footage and historical footage - the Lee footage is a climax AND a straight dump (Schrader pun) of footage - whole different thing, and in his Schrader's film it's not even a thing.
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Post by stephen on Jan 16, 2019 15:28:03 GMT
See and that to me is moving the goalposts in a different way - in Bigelow's film it could be dropped and the film doesn't suffer much, in Lee's it cannot be - it's restructures his failed film - it is the scene everyone talks about and because there is no cinematic corollary to it, it is uniquely bad. He was "building to it" isn't right either - he was building to a scene he didn't write, direct, edit? Ok, I pass. The Schrader example misses the mark because there's a difference with real footage and historical footage - the Lee footage is a climax AND a straight dump (Schrader pun) of footage - whole different thing, and in his Schrader's film it's not even a thing. He did edit it. He remixed several broadcasts, different interviews and networks. It's not like he cribbed the entire thing, untouched, from one source. The montage is in the script; it was planned from the absolute start. Spike Lee has never been known for subtlety, and he breaks the fourth wall all the time. He knew, rightly, that portraying the events as they occurred added a layer of distance to the proceedings, and he knew that audiences might leave the theater thinking that Stallworth's efforts had secured David Duke's legacy as a punchline (his last scene in the film is being mocked) and that the Klan had been permanently crippled and, thus, racism had been defeated. But this isn't the case. It's also not the first time he's done this. Malcolm X ends with a montage of real-life kids and Nelson Mandela saying "I am Malcolm X," showing that the man's legacy lasts today. BlacKkKlansman is doing the exact same thing, only instead of it being a message of optimism and positive impact, it's the bleak truth of today's society. If anything, those two films are twinned inextricably for Lee.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 16, 2019 15:30:12 GMT
Dude your hatred of Spike is weird and agressive. Filmmakers have been piecing together footage (which I’m sure he obtained with permission) for as long as they have been editing film. Many have cut news footage with fiction before too but apparently you can’t see two things as similar unless they are the exact same. I need to go to work but I’m starting to think this is more about you than it is about Spike Lee. You are going weirdly over the top with this. I don't hate him, I dislike his filmmaking. That's not the same thing. No filmmakers have not been doing what he did exactly for a film climax, ever - see replies to stephen's posts - it is not the same to me. I'm awaiting examples and if they did, they would get the same analysis (it may have happened, I'm open to examples of a climax in a narrative film) - it's not the same as "getting permission" (don't care) or "cutting together footage" outside the climax (different thing) - that is not what he did, at all. Have a good day at work. I am not going weirdly over the top with this at all really - I said the exact same thing when I saw the film and reviewed it in the Blackkklansman thread here. Check that thread out if you like, you'll see. There hasn't been an increase or decrease in intensity in my position, at all - and that goes back to .........September I guess - maybe before?
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 16, 2019 15:44:56 GMT
He did edit it. He remixed several broadcasts, different interviews and networks. It's not like he cribbed the entire thing, untouched, from one source. The montage is in the script; it was planned from the absolute start. Spike Lee has never been known for subtlety, and he breaks the fourth wall all the time. He knew, rightly, that portraying the events as they occurred added a layer of distance to the proceedings, and he knew that audiences might leave the theater thinking that Stallworth's efforts had secured David Duke's legacy as a punchline (his last scene in the film is being mocked) and that the Klan had been permanently crippled and, thus, racism had been defeated. But this isn't the case. It's also not the first time he's done this. Malcolm X ends with a montage of real-life kids and Nelson Mandela saying "I am Malcolm X," showing that the man's legacy lasts today. BlacKkKlansman is doing the exact same thing, only instead of it being a message of optimism and positive impact, it's the bleak truth of today's society. If anything, those two films are twinned inextricably for Lee. Playing along with my reasoning stephen and look at the other side here too: Ah, so he didn't just steal it, he stole it from multiple sources (did his own edit!) - Apologies, that's so much better than just flat dumping it in there. It is in the script which means what - it was a bad idea at the start? They never had a better ending? Malcolm X uses that ending but not famous historical footage - this would be closer to this : Do the Right Thing ending with Malcolm X and MLK wrestling in a hotel. Not a just photo of the two (he's always had problems ending his films - not known for subtlety - you said it pal), but live action footage of the two fighting - thank God he never found footage of that (doesn't exist) for him to then buy it, get permission and edit from two sources. It eventually just boils down to that - CNN historical footage, as the climax of his film = me feeling ripped off and manipulated. I'm not sure what people want me to say but that's how it played on me and I can't ever recall an exact corollary to what he did there, or else I'd equally loathe it. Some good points today though here.....
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Javi
Badass
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Post by Javi on Jan 16, 2019 15:57:58 GMT
See and that to me is moving the goalposts in a different way - in Bigelow's film it could be dropped and the film doesn't suffer much, in Lee's it cannot be - it's restructures his failed film - it is the scene everyone talks about and because there is no cinematic corollary to it, it is uniquely bad. He was "building to it" isn't right either - he was building to a scene he didn't write, direct, edit? Ok, I pass. The Schrader example misses the mark because there's a difference with real footage and historical footage - the Lee footage is a climax AND a straight dump (Schrader pun) of footage - whole different thing, and in his Schrader's film it's not even a thing. He did edit it. He remixed several broadcasts, different interviews and networks. It's not like he cribbed the entire thing, untouched, from one source. The montage is in the script; it was planned from the absolute start. Spike Lee has never been known for subtlety, and he breaks the fourth wall all the time. He knew, rightly, that portraying the events as they occurred added a layer of distance to the proceedings, and he knew that audiences might leave the theater thinking that Stallworth's efforts had secured David Duke's legacy as a punchline (his last scene in the film is being mocked) and that the Klan had been permanently crippled and, thus, racism had been defeated. But this isn't the case. It's also not the first time he's done this. Malcolm X ends with a montage of real-life kids and Nelson Mandela saying "I am Malcolm X," showing that the man's legacy lasts today. BlacKkKlansman is doing the exact same thing, only instead of it being a message of optimism and positive impact, it's the bleak truth of today's society. If anything, those two films are twinned inextricably for Lee. Yes and it was just as bad that time around. I don't think there's anything wrong with using real footage in narrative films (plenty of cases where it works marvellously well actually) but in both Malcolm X and Blackkklansman it comes across as a failure of imagination imo--even worse, it comes across as didactic, banal. The latter especially tries desperately to add weight that just isn't earned. If you want to be incendiary, make an incendiary film all the way through (which Blackkklansman certainly isn't: it's pleasant actually, way too pleasant for what it tries to become later on).
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 17, 2019 23:03:26 GMT
Let me ask you this: Zero Dark Thirty actually opens with real audio footage of 9/11 against a black screen. Do you think that's fair game, or do you think that what Bigelow did was "out of bounds"? Adam McKay did the exact same thing as Spike THE SAME YEAR. To be fair though that movie is actually garbage but for different reasons. I just saw Vice. He did not. At all.
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Post by sterlingarcher86 on Jan 18, 2019 0:23:25 GMT
Adam McKay did the exact same thing as Spike THE SAME YEAR. To be fair though that movie is actually garbage but for different reasons. I just saw Vice. He did not. At all. I feel like parables must go way over your head, “That’s not Stalin! He’s not a farm animal!” Things don’t gave to be the exact same to be similar. You nitpicked your way around the American Sniper and Zero Dark Thirty examples. Then changed the reason why you hated the way Spike did it. First you acted like it was plagerism then you acted like it was only because it was the climax of the film. Stephen was right. You keep moving the goalposts.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 18, 2019 0:40:38 GMT
Meh, I feel like the definition of words goes over your head sterling, since you know you said the exact same thing, ............. I thought you meant the exact same thing my fault. You know, I feel you can't really discuss film that well, certainly not this one, I feel you're not really good at debating in general and have to make stuff up and then well, deny you're making stuff up. I feel that you just misused "parable" in relation to these two films, I feel on some level, you may not know who Stalin was but know farm animals all too well. Feelings are so complicated.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 18, 2019 0:44:28 GMT
Side note - I feel you don't know what goal posts are either ....wah wah wah........climax is clear in the first post.....never said I hated the way Spike did it, hated that he did it period (see the difference?) - stephen may be right, we discussed it, but he had his opinion and it was his and that's cool, you're just plagiarizing his opinion.............and crying about it.
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Post by sterlingarcher86 on Jan 18, 2019 2:53:15 GMT
Meh, I feel like the definition of words goes over your head sterling, since you know you said the exact same thing, ............. I thought you meant the exact same thing my fault. You know, I feel you can't really discuss film that well, certainly not this one, I feel you're not really good at debating in general and have to make stuff up and then well, deny you're making stuff up. I feel that you just misused "parable" in relation to these two films, I feel on some level, you may not know who Stalin was but know farm animals all too well. Feelings are so complicated. Dude I know Vice sucks but don’t let it get you in such a bad mood. You got pissy FAST. I didn’t call either of those movies parables. Also didn’t steal Stephen’s opinion since so literally credited him with being the one who said it first...If you are gonna be this angry I’ll leave you alone. I obviously struck a nerve with you there somehow. I honestly don’t know how. I was being so tame. You can go back to being fake nice while being passive aggressively condescending all the time. This board doesn’t need THIS version of pacinoeyes. Also would district 9 have been a better reference? I feel like that one went past you.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 18, 2019 3:21:29 GMT
Awww, well this is the version of me you're getting buddy But hey see ya, bye, and good luck talking about the music in the live action Hunchback of Notre Dame
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Post by sterlingarcher86 on Jan 18, 2019 3:35:13 GMT
Awww, well this is the version of me you're getting buddy But hey see ya, bye, and good luck talking about the music in the live action Hunchback of Notre Dame I’m not to bothered by a person who apparently doesn’t know what Animal Farm is thinking my choice in topics is too low for them. Peace out.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jan 18, 2019 3:51:28 GMT
Buh-bye - now stay away like you said - I don't wanna hear that "peace out" does not actually "mean" goodbye Ding Dong the witch is dead (oops sorry, that's not it) - let us all rejoice and sing
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