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Post by SeanJoyce on Dec 9, 2018 7:02:45 GMT
Some people might be tired of seeing me talk about Ol' Kirk, but screw em. I proudly posted the centenarian post at IMDb 2 years ago, and I'm proud to follow up with it here.
I'll just sum it up: Kirk is far from my favorite actor; he was too prone to "going big" and his career dropped off rather precipitously after the 60s. But if we're being objective, Kirk might have been "the guy" for two strong decades, especially the 50s.
From the staple of post-WWII actors, I think that Clift and Brando still reign supreme as the most talented. But when it comes to quality and most prolific, I think that Kirk wins it by a landslide. His ability to recognize a good script were second to none, he worked with all of the great directors of that era, and he left his imprint on every genre. And unlike just about every other actor of that era, a lot of his best work (An Ace in the Hole/Paths of Glory) has increased in pedigree over time.
Happy birthday Kirk, and thanks for the multitude of great movies and memories.
Thoughts on Kirk? Favorite films, performances, roles, etc.?
Noms/Wins:
Best Supporting Actor - Out of the Past
Best Actor - Champion
Best Actor - Ace in the Hole
Best Actor - The Bad and the Beautiful
Best Actor - Lust for Life
Best Actor - Paths of Glory
Best Actor - Spartacus
Best Actor - Lonely Are the Brave
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Post by MsMovieStar on Dec 9, 2018 8:33:04 GMT
Oh honey, have one for me.
The Bad & the Beautiful is my favourite Kirk movie.
He still has some pretty good moves. Happy Birthday, Kirk!
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wattsnew
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Post by wattsnew on Dec 9, 2018 9:49:23 GMT
102??
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Post by ibbi on Dec 9, 2018 21:55:08 GMT
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Post by SeanJoyce on Dec 9, 2018 21:57:31 GMT
Haaaaaapy birthday, Chuck Tatum! Arguably his best role; he was just ideal for Wilder's bleak, unsparing look at the journalistic circus and the sadistic public. Wilder needed an actor who would unabashedly embrace the dark, unflattering nature of that role and he certainly found it in Douglas. As an amoral and opportunistic reporter who manipulates a human tragedy to get back to the "big time", Douglas is right in his wheelhouse. Chuck Tatum is the perfect middle link between Midge Kelly in Champion and Johnathan Shields in The Bad and the Beautiful, unscrupulous anti-heroes who use and abuse others in furious self-driven agendas...only to destroy their own souls in the process. In a review commemorating the important 2007 Criterion release, Ebert noted how chillingly modern Douglas' work here is: "His focus and energy as Chuck Tatum is almost scary. There is nothing dated about Douglas' performance. It's as right-now as a sharpened knife." It's an absolutely towering piece of screen acting, and the only reason I hesitate to give him the win for that year is because of how strong his competition is. Wilder and Douglas were really a maverick match, and I'm so happy they came together for what has over time come to be recognized as perhaps the crowning achievement for either of them. |
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Post by Leo_The_Last on Dec 9, 2018 22:33:31 GMT
Congrats Mr. Danielovitch!
One tough guy, and you can really feel the drive he had leaping off the screen.
And, as has been said before, had great taste in getting behind the right projects at the right time, even starting out as a true actor/producer powerhouse, like his friend Burt Lancaster.
When the day comes, it will truly be the end of an era, for better or worse. 50s America machismo, a certain masculanity, that in itself hasn't much to do with his impressive physicality, but more with the way those guys carried themselves.
I don't do/haven't gotten around to do line-ups/wins, but he certainly would have been worthy of a regular Oscar, especially during his peak years.
His three nominations are well earned, and even seem to be too little regarding his impressive body of work (maybe even deserved a win for Lust for Life, from his nominated performances at least). And I think it is underestimated how his physicality, his rawness influenced the following generations. There were more guys to get inspiration from than just Brando, Clift or Dean.
Maybe not the subtlest of actors, but still a pretty remarkable performer.
Just some titles which so far remained unmentioned (and which not all are top level stuff):
Detective Story. That's a good one. God, Wyler really knew where to put the camera. Which nowadays so many seem to have forgotten. (Reminds me of Milos Forman screaming at Vincent Schiavelli on the set of Amadeus: "Television ruins you!!!" 😀)
And every true movie lover has to like The Vikings, no? Or his version of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Like those two a lot. Richard Fleischer rules.
The Indian Fighter, which I think was the first one he produced himself, I also have fond memorys of (though no masterpiece-level stuff, of course).
Also Ulysses, a movie I saw as a kid back in school, keeps a special place in my heart (without being that special outside of my warped memory).
Recently watched A Lovely Way to Die. Forget about it. What a waste of time.
The Last Sunset; The List of Adrian Messenger; Seven Days in May is wonderful. Also like The Brotherhood.
Actually, when I look back on his filmography, there is a lot more to like than I had in mind, way up into the 70s. A special mention to Posse.
Has anyone seen A Gunfight (1971)? I like Lamont Johnson, maybe seek it out someday.
Sadly, in the coming decades, he lost touch with the times. Which to be honest is a normality, happened (happens) to pretty much every star of yesteryear.
He also couldn't really find a way into the circle of the new wave directors, apart from his collaborations with De Palma. Or work with some european masters, like Lancaster did. It's just a big difference, working repeatedly with Jeff Kanew instead of Visconti.
Would have liked to see an Atlantic City, or even a Local Hero for Kirk.
Recently read he apparently wanted to star in Music Box, in the Armin Mueller-Stahl part, who was perfect in the role. So all turned out the way it should be. (Still could have been a late career triumph.)
Nevermind. Cheers to a great career, a great man!
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Post by SeanJoyce on Dec 10, 2018 15:02:40 GMT
And it's sadly unavailable on Blu-ray. I made a post here a couple of weeks ago posting that Douglas being ignored by AMPAS for his cumulative excellent work in '51 (this and Ace in the Hole) was a crime. He's better in Wilder's film, but his trademark seething intensity serves Wyler's hard-hitting police procedural well.
Big, bawdy adventure for the whole family. Revisited the latter last night as part of my mini Kirk-a-thon and it's a real hoot seeing him take a break from his usual "actorly" parts.
His resume is remarkably dense and eclectic. Hell, his 50s twofer, where he tackled Tennessee Williams (The Glass Menagerie) before it was in vogue or Michael Curtiz's paean to jazz music Young Man with a Horn) gets almost zero mention from casual fans.
I think these are excellent points. Burt is a top actor for me but I think it's obvious that he lacked Kirk's talent. Still, things like The Leopard, The Swimmer and Atlantic City in his later career aged him like a fine wine. Kirk really had no standout performances or critically-praised movies in the latter half of his career.
I appreciate the few people who turned up to comment here; didn't think "good taste" was so rare in this corner of the web.
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LaraQ
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English Rose
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Post by LaraQ on Dec 10, 2018 15:10:43 GMT
I'm fascinated to see what comes out about Kirk Douglas when he eventually dies.Lana Wood all but he admitted he raped Natalie.No Birthday wishes from me.
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Post by mrimpossible on Dec 10, 2018 15:17:30 GMT
I'm fascinated to see what comes out about Kirk Douglas when he eventually dies.Lana Wood all but he admitted he raped Natalie.No Birthday wishes from me. I think it’s incredibly dubious to attack someone with unproven accusations that didn’t even come from the alleged victim themselves. There’s a lot of rumors especially about old Hollywood made by attention seekers and most were proven to be false. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Dec 10, 2018 15:24:08 GMT
In general the 60s for Lancaster were like the 50s for Douglas except where Douglas exuded certain personality types across a wide range of roles in the 50s, Lancaster subverted them for himself - so for the most part rather than be virile and masculine he's revisionist - metaphorically impotent (The Swimmer, Atlantic City) - that is what enabled him to sort of pivot better than Douglas.
Sometimes it's overtly sensitive too in a way that was unique (A Child Is Waiting) or some element that makes you reconsider Lancaster's earlier work within the 60s work - ie his Jim Thorpe a relatively minor film from '51 looms over The Swimmer big time.
What is a little weird is when Lancaster got some roles later roles that Douglas probably could have totally aced if he got them (like Go Tell The Spartans.....)
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LaraQ
Badass
English Rose
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Likes: 2,835
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Post by LaraQ on Dec 10, 2018 17:43:44 GMT
I'm fascinated to see what comes out about Kirk Douglas when he eventually dies.Lana Wood all but he admitted he raped Natalie.No Birthday wishes from me. I think it’s incredibly dubious to attack someone with unproven accusations that didn’t even come from the alleged victim themselves. There’s a lot of rumors especially about old Hollywood made by attention seekers and most were proven to be false. The accusation came from her SISTER. |
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Post by mrimpossible on Dec 10, 2018 17:51:38 GMT
I think it’s incredibly dubious to attack someone with unproven accusations that didn’t even come from the alleged victim themselves. There’s a lot of rumors especially about old Hollywood made by attention seekers and most were proven to be false. The accusation came from her SISTER. And not from NATALIE WOOD. Accusations hinted by a family member is not very reliable. Also an anonymous writer who might’ve been Robert Downey Jr is not proof of anything. |
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Post by Leo_The_Last on Dec 10, 2018 20:34:05 GMT
Yes, he should have gotten some attention for his one-two punch in '51. But considering how mixed the reaction towards Ace in the Hole was back in the day, it isn't that surprising he was left out. At least Detective Story got some nominations. (And Ace for its script.)
The Wilder one is really something special, and justly grew in terms of critical standing over the years. In that regard its similar to The King of Comedy, even in terms of what both movies deal with thematically and in how critics didn't really know what to make of them at the time.
'51 was a strong year in the Best Actor category (Brando, Clift, March, Bogart!!), but with todays understanding of the actual work, the academy probably would have found a way in for Kirk's turn (probably would have knocked out Kennedy).
Major actors/stars finding one or two great late career roles, preferably in movies that are going to last, critically and in terms of public perception, that's something I'm kind of obsessed with, especially nowadays, as the heroes of my youth are getting up there in age (I'm looking at you Bobby D.).
I recently recorded The Man from Snowy River, and I don't expect it to be some sort of long forgotten masterpiece, but firstly I am a completist and secondly, just maybe, I will be pleasantly surprised.
(And thanks seanjoyce, even I didn't know I had good taste 😀 / I would have posted around these boards a long time ago, if I wouldn't be struggling with my english as much as I do, I wrestle with every paragraph, mostly it's a loosing battle 🙃)
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Post by Leo_The_Last on Dec 10, 2018 20:36:56 GMT
In general the 60s for Lancaster were like the 50s for Douglas except where Douglas exuded certain personality types across a wide range of roles in the 50s, Lancaster subverted them for himself - so for the most part rather than be virile and masculine he's revisionist - metaphorically impotent (The Swimmer, Atlantic City) - that is what enabled him to sort of pivot better than Douglas. Sometimes it's overtly sensitive too in a way that was unique (A Child Is Waiting) or some element that makes you reconsider Lancaster's earlier work within the 60s work - ie his Jim Thorpe a relatively minor film from '51 looms over The Swimmer big time. What is a little weird is when Lancaster got some roles later roles that Douglas probably could have totally aced if he got them (like Go Tell The Spartans.....) You're right about Lancaster. Despite being similar to Douglas in a lot of ways, he was much smarter in how to position himself within the changing landscape, subverting his own screen image, making himself available to riskier or challenging material outside of Hollywood, all while not completely abandoning more classic Lancaster stuff. So you end up with a truly exceptional filmography, with major movies from the 40s all the way up to the 80s. He really is a role model in how to handle a successful career. |
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Post by Martin Stett on Dec 10, 2018 21:23:59 GMT
I recently recorded The Man from Snowy River, and I don't expect it to be some sort of long forgotten masterpiece, but firstly I am a completist and secondly, just maybe, I will be pleasantly surprised. Well, I hope *you* enjoy it. I'd rather shoot myself in the head than watch that movie again. |
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Post by SeanJoyce on Dec 10, 2018 21:57:08 GMT
It's very good, and a minor classic in its own right. Kudos to Kirk for playing dual characters at that stage in his career. No problem, your English is better than most Americans so don't sweat it  |
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Post by Leo_The_Last on Dec 10, 2018 22:22:43 GMT
I recently recorded The Man from Snowy River, and I don't expect it to be some sort of long forgotten masterpiece, but firstly I am a completist and secondly, just maybe, I will be pleasantly surprised. Well, I hope *you* enjoy it. I'd rather shoot myself in the head than watch that movie again. Well great, maybe we can watch it together then, it's surely going to be a blast! 😉 |
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Post by SeanJoyce on Dec 13, 2018 22:42:23 GMT
Figured I'd bump this one final time before letting it go gently into that good night.
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Post by Leo_The_Last on Dec 13, 2018 23:22:21 GMT
"If you dream, dream big."
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Dec 13, 2018 23:24:43 GMT
Not the biggest Kirk fan but I need to see his earlier stuff. He was awful in Spartacus.
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Post by SeanJoyce on Dec 13, 2018 23:26:54 GMT
Not the biggest Kirk fan but I need to see his earlier stuff. He was awful in Spartacus. |
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Post by Leo_The_Last on Dec 13, 2018 23:40:19 GMT
"They didn't have flat tops in ancient rome!" 😆
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Post by SeanJoyce on Dec 14, 2018 16:44:15 GMT
I recently watched The War Wagon and had a blast...textbook case of star wattage (Wayne and Douglas) elevating fairly rote material, much like Gunfight at the OK Corral.
It's also got a "last hurrah" feel for the classic western as well (though in all honesty that's either True Grit or The Shootist.)
Oh, and the opening Dimitri Tiomkin/Ed Ames kicks ass...fight me.
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Post by Leo_The_Last on Dec 15, 2018 0:11:05 GMT
One looks back on something like The War Wagon, and you realize it was released only 5 years before The Godfather.
And I don't mention that to diminish the quality of those late 60's, star driven studio pictures. But it's just brutal, when you think about it. Imagine a film 5 years from today who already seems (at least in terms of public perception) like it was made eons ago.
Obviously it was a transitional period in american cinema, but it must have been a pretty harsh time for most of the established movie folks back in the day.
Hopefully Tarantino can make something out of this in his next feature. Exploring the shift in american/western culture/society through the prism of the movie industry. It's great material to deal with, and I hope he finds something poignant in his examination of that particular time in film history.
And in regards to The War Wagon, Burt Kennedy always reminds me of someone pretty exemplary of a director of that time. Andrew V. McLaglen is another one.
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Post by SeanJoyce on Dec 15, 2018 6:38:48 GMT
Yeah, it was certainly an anachronism when you realize that '67 was the unofficial year of "New Hollywood", ushered in by the likes of Bonnie and Clyde and The Graduate.
But in way, it's almost comforting to know that traditional studio pictures powered by old-school stars could coexist with these radical new toys.
For anybody looking for a whooping good time, I heartily recommend this unique "heist/western" hybrid.
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