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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 29, 2018 11:25:37 GMT
I started thinking of this in terms of Oscar nominations just because they are a quick barometer - I don't think they mean anything especially in the last 25 or so years...........but also specifically about First Reformed too.
To me that's a director's film - like if you are going to praise it you start with Schrader.......... even though it has the lead actor's best performance in it. But I wouldn't be surprised if Hawke got nodded this year and Schrader was skipped entirely (Screenplay too) which to me is baffling - that's Schrader's film, Ethan Hawke's just in it.
But of course it's not that simple and a lot goes into it - so what are some examples of this where the actor/director are not operating on the same level of acclaim and you think it was "off". Three Billboards, the only film I've given a "10" to in the last few years was that way to me - McDonagh should have been lauded like a new king and I lauded him that way (lol) but not the way the performances were and to me it didn't really make sense (and I loved McDormand and Rockwell etc)
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Zeb31
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Post by Zeb31 on Aug 29, 2018 11:55:40 GMT
People tend to completely disregard the effort of child performers and give 100% of the credit to the directors, as if children are incapable of understanding what's happening, and I never understood why.
Even today I still see people object to Quvenzhané Wallis's nomination with the argument that that performance was merely the result of Zeitlin manipulating her in the right ways and coaxing something special out of her with minimal conscious effort or awareness from her end, and it makes no sense. The studio put out some behind the scenes footage, and you can clearly see her go in and out of character in between takes. Obviously directing children is a big challenge and Zeitlin deserved all the acclaim he got, but he's not the sole person responsible for that marvelous performance.
This type of thinking completely disregards that ALL performances are collaborative efforts between actors, directors, writers, editors etc., and that adult performers are just as likely as children to need thorough guiding and micro-directing (e.g. Elizabeth Taylor and Mike Nichols in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?).
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Post by stephen on Aug 29, 2018 12:52:06 GMT
People tend to completely disregard the effort of child performers and give 100% of the credit to the directors, as if children are incapable of understanding what's happening, and I never understood why. Even today I still see people object to Quvenzhané Wallis's nomination with the argument that that performance was merely the result of Zeitlin manipulating her in the right ways and coaxing something special out of her with minimal conscious effort or awareness from her end, and it makes no sense. The studio put out some behind the scenes footage, and you can clearly see her go in and out of character in between takes. Obviously directing children is a big challenge and Zeitlin deserved all the acclaim he got, but he's not the sole person responsible for that marvelous performance. This type of thinking completely disregards that ALL performances are collaborative efforts between actors, directors, writers, editors etc., and that adult performers are just as likely as children to need thorough guiding and micro-directing (e.g. Elizabeth Taylor and Mike Nichols in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?). Took the words right out of my fucking mouth, brother. The inane bias against child performers because they are considered "too young" to understand what they are doing is ridiculous. Kids pretend all the time. That's what they do. Sure, they may not know about Adler or Stanislavski, but they understand what make-believe is, and that's what acting is at its core. And every single performance ever given on-screen is the result of an editor and director choosing the best takes and cobbling it together.
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Post by stephen on Aug 29, 2018 13:17:38 GMT
I don’t know if it’s quite what you’re asking, but for me, the way people argue that Ryan O’Neal is perfectly cast in Barry Lyndon fits the bill. I’ve heard so many people say that it was Kubrick’s intention to cast a block of wood in the title role, that Redmond Barry is a boring ignoramus bumble-fucking his way to the top, and that O’Neal was perfectly cast (even if he himself wasn’t aware of the fact). But that feels so much like rationalization on the part of staunch Kubrick fans, who think that the man was incapable of anything less than genius. Redmond Barry was a conman and social climber; he had to have some modicum of charisma to get where he was, and O’Neal had none of it.
I’d extend this criticism of Kubrick’s casting into The Shining as well. Nicholson was horrendously miscast, to the point it actively harms the film and my ability to enjoy it because, let’s be real, no one managing a world-class hotel looking for a winter caretaker right after the previous caretaker gruesomely murdered his whole family would look at Jack Nicholson and think, “Yeah, that guy looks like he’s got all his screws tight—let’s give him the job.” Duvall’s shrinking-violet routine works in spite of itself, but I feel like Kubrick actively robbed Wendy of any agency in the story to an almost misogynistic level (Wendy is far stronger and more put-together in the novel, and all of the departures on Kubrick’s part feel unnecessary).
In short, I feel Kubrick is worshipped as this god amongst mortals who could do no wrong, when honestly, almost every movie he made from 2001 on suffers from severe flaws, primarily on a human storytelling standpoint.
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Post by stephen on Aug 29, 2018 13:53:04 GMT
Interesting. This is one way to interpret pacinoyes' question. O'Neal was simply a wooden face of that era. Nothing really much else to say about that guy. If you ask me, and this is something you can agree with or not, but I think he'd make a decent Mad Max in the original. I just see Mel as pretty blank in the film, and O'Neal can elevate that role a little bit, but the film certainly won't lose much without Mel, imo. But ... as Barry Lyndon, his casting is almost laughable. Interesting that it seems like it's "cool" to hate on Nicholson's performance in The Shining lately. I seem to remember back in the days people thought he was one of Kubrick's better performances. Because if you have people like: Matt Modine in Full Metal Jacket....... nothing special. Kirk Douglas in Spartacus..... eh. Not horribly cast, but I don't see him as a gladiator at all. And I felt he served the part in Paths of Glory just like Cruise served the part in Eyes Wide Shut but neither really stood out as great performances. I feel like the main "directors" (Scorsese, Hitchcock, Kubrick) often get away with bad casting and mediocre performances just because they have mass armies of fans randomly praising every aspect of their films. For instance, how many times has Scorsese tried to lump DiCaprio and DeNiro into every part there is? And I don't like his casting of Cybil Shepard in Taxi Driver, and any actor in After Hours pedestrian in my eyes. And Hitchcock's latter day castings of James Stewart just feels..... meh. And it feels like Hitchcock sometimes just inserts the It blonde of the time and the result is often random casting and getting people like Tippi Hedren and Grace Kelly praises for their mediocre efforts. I suppose I can kind of see what you're saying about Gibson in the OG Mad Max, although I'd argue that Gibson is far more charismatic and magnetic than O'Neal. Hell, I'd argue Mad Mel is one of the most charismatic actors ever to set foot in front of the screen. There's not much character to Max in the first film, but you watch it and you're fixated on Gibson. With Barry Lyndon, you're watching literally everything but O'Neal (it helps that everything is so lusciously shot and decorated around him). I've always been on the Nicholson hate-train when it comes to most of his '80s work and a lot of it beyond. My disdain for Scorsese's casting of him in The Departed always set me at odds with much of the old board back in the day. I hate how Scorsese just let Jack run roughshod over him with those infuriating tics and laughable mannerisms that failed to make Costello menacing or even respectable in the slightest; I can't watch The Departed and not think that Winstone or someone wouldn't have pulled an Of Mice and Men on Nicholson way before the film ever began. When it comes to Scorsese, actually, I find him an interesting case. I think the man has a fantastic flair, one of the all-time greats in that respect . . . but I think his output leaves a lot to be desired. Two masterpieces, a handful of strong movies . . . but I actually think much of his filmography is actually kinda weaksauce for a legend of his perceived caliber. And I do think he has a problem with casting in a fair bit of his movies. Hitchcock largely skirted this, but I can see the complaints.
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Post by finniussnrub on Aug 29, 2018 14:37:29 GMT
It is honestly just the way the cookie crumbles, and to be fair it is likely that Ethan Hawke would praise Schrader if he wins any award along the way. It is interesting that so often the complaint is the long list of thank you that are derided in Oscar speeches, however it is the one place within the ceremony that the collaborative process of film will be recognized within the overall sentiment of the ceremony that focuses on the individual achievement (that in all great likelihood came from collaboration).
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 29, 2018 15:30:48 GMT
Good mentions in this thread - I don't think any one one is misinterpreting how I meant it, just approaching it different ways. Let me give some examples where major directors arguably got some dubious credit or at least dubious Oscar consideration at expense of their actors.
The Godfather Part III - No one who saw this movie at the time "blamed" Pacino in fact to most people it was thought of as a Lear-like tour de force (I am a fan but don't put in his top 15 he just is so deep with that top 15/top 20/top 25) most people would have called him the best thing in the film even given how divisive the film was .......but plenty of people at the time (and now) specifically blamed Francis Coppola but everyone's nodded except Pacino, BP nod, Best Director nod.
JFK no best actor nod - I'm not saying that's not an director's film but a lot of nods and a red hot star left out.......
Titanic - Where maybe the main appeal of the film - certainly for young people who watched it over and over - is specifically the two leads and one is famously left out.
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Post by stephen on Aug 29, 2018 15:43:58 GMT
Good mentions in this thread - I don't think any one one is misinterpreting how I meant it, just approaching it different ways. Let me give some examples where major directors arguably got some dubious credit or at least dubious Oscar consideration at expense of their actors. The Godfather Part III - No one who saw this movie at the time "blamed" Pacino in fact to most people it was thought of as a Lear-like tour de force (I am a fan but don't put in his top 15 he just is so deep with that top 15/top 20/top 25) most people may have called him the best thing in the film even given how divisive the film was .......but plenty of people at the time (and now) specifically blamed Francis Coppola but everyone's nodded except Pacino, BP nod, Best Director nod. JFK no best actor nod - I'm not saying that's not an director's film but a lot of nods and a red hot star left out....... Titanic - Where maybe the main appeal of the film - certainly for young people who watched it over and over - is specifically the two leads and one is famously left out. I'm not nearly so old that I remember how people took to Pacino in The Godfather: Part III, but I think the prevailing notion at the time was that even with the film's ambition, a lot of people were discontented with the path that Michael's character went, and Pacino was coming off of a decade-long drought with the Academy. He got nominated that same year for Dick Tracy, which I think leans into the more outsized, blustery Pacino that became somewhat vogue to imitate and make fun of, but looking at the 1990 Best Actor lineup, I can't really see anyone he would've been able to oust. Irons was sweeping, De Niro had a banner year (and Williams was arguably sixth), Harris had Jim Sheridan (back when that meant something) and was the "eclectic passion pick," Depardieu had the surprise foreign language hit of the year, and Costner was headlining the eventual self-directed Best Picture winner. Even so, people might not have blamed Pacino for the failings of The Godfather: Part III but they may very well have been discontented by the very public issues regarding money and the prevailing notion that everyone involved had sold out. I still maintain that Part III's success with nominations was afterglow love for the original films and a desire to want to believe that it was good, similarly to how critics/industry lost their minds for American Hustle at the outset, and then realized, "Wait, we fucked up." Pacino got nominated that year for something that I think was a bit easier to swallow, despite it being a comically outsized performance, and maybe any respect they may have had for the man in Part III just transitioned there. JFK is a weird case, because even though Costner had just come off a huge year (Best Picture/Director wins, an actor nod), they might've felt he'd been recognized enough. Plus the film is the quintessential ensemble movie; Costner is largely reactionary to bigger, louder characters. And that year's Lead Actor category was dominated by loud, showy, noisy sorts (but not necessarily good; take out Hopkins and you've got a dire bunch). And let's be real, 1991 was a wash anyway because they decided to give Bugsy double Supporting Actor nods instead of JFK or Barton Fink. DiCaprio missing out for Titanic seems weird in hindsight, considering his status as an Academy favorite, but it's not that surprising. 1997 was a year where all but one Best Actor nominee was an older legend. And DiCaprio was the pretty-boy movie-star who was gracing every single magazine and poster. I just don't think they took him seriously as a contender, nor did they want to. Winslet was always going to get in because they favor ingenues, but DiCaprio was always going to have a tough time because younger actors tend to get snubbed here, the role itself seems deceptively simple and easily parodied (and there was a lot of mocking of DiCaprio at the time; it wasn't until his Scorsese outings where the guy started getting some respect), and Damon just sucked up a lot of the air with his breakout.
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 29, 2018 16:22:50 GMT
Good mentions in this thread - I don't think any one one is misinterpreting how I meant it, just approaching it different ways. Let me give some examples where major directors arguably got some dubious credit or at least dubious Oscar consideration at expense of their actors. The Godfather Part III - No one who saw this movie at the time "blamed" Pacino in fact to most people it was thought of as a Lear-like tour de force (I am a fan but don't put in his top 15 he just is so deep with that top 15/top 20/top 25) most people may have called him the best thing in the film even given how divisive the film was .......but plenty of people at the time (and now) specifically blamed Francis Coppola but everyone's nodded except Pacino, BP nod, Best Director nod. JFK no best actor nod - I'm not saying that's not an director's film but a lot of nods and a red hot star left out....... Titanic - Where maybe the main appeal of the film - certainly for young people who watched it over and over - is specifically the two leads and one is famously left out. Pacino that became somewhat vogue to imitate and make fun of, but looking at the 1990 Best Actor lineup, I can't really see anyone he would've been able to oust. Irons was sweeping, De Niro had a banner year (and Williams was arguably sixth), Harris had Jim Sheridan (back when that meant something) and was the "eclectic passion pick," Depardieu had the surprise foreign language hit of the year, and Costner was headlining the eventual self-directed Best Picture winner. Even so, people might not have blamed Pacino for the failings of The Godfather: Part III but they may very well have been discontented by the very public issues regarding money and the prevailing notion that everyone involved had sold out. I still maintain that Part III's success with nominations was afterglow love for the original films and a desire to want to believe that it was good, similarly to how critics/industry lost their minds for American Hustle at the outset, and then realized, "Wait, we fucked up." Maybe - I would say the Depardieu and Harris were rather, imo, almost shocking nominations - maybe Harris less so - because they were really underseen when those nods came out - I think on Oscar day Robin Williams and Pacino were sort of stunners by omission - though it makes sense too since in Williams case its hard to ever get 2 lead males in from the same film..........Costner, Pacino, Williams, Harris, Irons were the Globe nominees and I think people were thinking the Oscars would follow that group exactly but with DeNiro replacing Costner (who would not get an actor and director double nod). But alas......... I am a big fan of Part III, but it's one of the few movies you could argue was helped and hurt by its name. Plenty of people say if it didn't have "Godfather" in the title it would have been better received and of course some also would argue the "we fucked up" thing is in reverse - ie they fucked up by underrating it just because it wasn't a masterpiece like the first 2. I am somewhere in the middle on those things and that's a different thread, but it's a strange film to assess that's for sure. I could have seen it being nodded for far less than it was and also for more nods (Pacino, Shire, Wallach, a token screenplay nod etc).
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Sept 20, 2018 11:14:14 GMT
I think actors always get too much credit. The fact is no matter how good they are or how hard they fight for their performance, the final product is always out of their hands. If they look great on screen of course they deserve credit, but so does the editor and/or the director. As much if not more.
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