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Post by futuretrunks on Dec 16, 2023 21:31:35 GMT
I'm not even getting into acting talent or anything here. Just the barebones of you have a script, you have a director, is this worth doing or this other thing worth doing. Why does it seem like there's a gulf between him and everybody else (at least since the Cruise who stacked auteurs)?
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Post by stephen on Dec 16, 2023 21:39:10 GMT
It's less to do with him being much more talented than his contemporaries and more because he is the last truly reliable box-office guarantee and because of that, he will always have first dibs on any project because all auteurs want their films to be commercially successful so that they can keep making their passion projects.
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Post by futuretrunks on Dec 16, 2023 21:50:24 GMT
It's less to do with him being much more talented than his contemporaries and more because he is the last truly reliable box-office guarantee and because of that, he will always have first dibs on any project because all auteurs want their films to be commercially successful so that they can keep making their passion projects. But there was a period of the 2000s where people like Damon, Clooney, Depp, etc. were as bankable or more. He more or less re-emerged as a box-office story Inception onward. It's not like Titanic juiced him to where everything grosses $300m+ and the difference between him and a another famous guy was so stark. It's where it seems like he capitalizes on success in a way other people don't. Not so much that they weren't given the opportunity, but that they don't make use of it in the same way.
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Post by wallsofjericho on Dec 16, 2023 22:07:25 GMT
He grew up on 70s movies that everyone loves including Montgomery Clift films and always talks about how he is striving to reach that quality or come close to those classic films like A Place in the Sun or the De Niro/Scorsese collaborations. Stephen's point is also true. He is fortunate (and deservedly so) that he can shepherd projects like KOTFM and get people like Scorsese involved because he is a proven draw.
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Post by pacinoyes on Dec 16, 2023 22:10:05 GMT
I've said this before - Leonardo DiCaprio is the full(est) fruition of a bad trend - and I love him - but it is a bad cultural trend that's not his problem - the culture of winning - you see it not just in movies, but everything - a sports mentality applied to the Arts. This is exacerbated by the Internet, list culture and the explosion of awards to use as metrics.
The best actors of previous eras were never judged by their failures - Laurence Olivier say was in a lot of crap, he was still Laurence Olivier ffs and great actors - I mean GREAT actors - Guinness or James Mason etc - could never be him .......... his crap was just accepted as part of his greatness.......it is only in modern times that actors who didn't have a lot of crap - most perfectly illustrated by Day-Lewis especially - could be raised to the level of GOAT (he's not imo) for what he DIDN'T do.....(ie not much crap, he was "consistent")
DiCaprio is that logic run almost as parody-level wild.......his temperament isn't to put himself in stuff that will fail.......he's risk averse in a way.....he does take risks but they're smart risks......exceptionally smart
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Post by stephen on Dec 16, 2023 22:20:36 GMT
It's less to do with him being much more talented than his contemporaries and more because he is the last truly reliable box-office guarantee and because of that, he will always have first dibs on any project because all auteurs want their films to be commercially successful so that they can keep making their passion projects. But there was a period of the 2000s where people like Damon, Clooney, Depp, etc. were as bankable or more. He more or less re-emerged as a box-office story Inception onward. It's not like Titanic juiced him to where everything grosses $300m+ and the difference between him and a another famous guy was so stark. It's where it seems like he capitalizes on success in a way other people don't. Not so much that they weren't given the opportunity, but that they don't make use of it in the same way. DiCaprio's a fascinating case because even though Titanic "made" him in terms of being a billion-dollar box-office grosser when that number actually meant something, his 2000s were somewhat rocky. He did The Beach immediately after and got largely excoriated for it, but it didn't have the cultural footprint to really ruin him. And DiCaprio actively tried to repudiate the pretty boy title by glomming onto Scorsese who, at the time, was starting to get that overdue narrative and making more awards-friendly projects. Gangs of New York and especially The Aviator were true tests but as you say, this was also the era of Depp's big comeback, Damon riding high off goodwill (hunting) and being a rival to DiCaprio's crown, and Clooney's zenith. But all of those guys were working far more frequently than DiCaprio, who was taking one or two years off between projects (even if he would have three years in that decade where he released more than one film). I've posited before that those double-headers helped his career more than if they had come out in consecutive years, as it helped make DiCaprio be seen more as an "event" actor that you had to wait for. And he pursued that much harder in the 2010s.
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Post by futuretrunks on Dec 16, 2023 22:25:26 GMT
I've said this before - Leonardo DiCaprio is the full(est) fruition of a bad trend - and I love him - but it is a bad cultural trend that's not his problem - the culture of winning - you see it not just in movies, but everything - a sports mentality applied to the Arts. This is exacerbated by the Internet, list culture and the explosion of awards to use as metrics. The best actors of previous eras were never judged by their failures - Laurence Olivier say was in a lot of crap, he was still Laurence Olivier ffs and great actors - I mean GREAT actors - Guinness or James Mason etc - could never be him .......... his crap was just accepted as part of his greatness.......it is only in modern times that actors who didn't have a lot of crap - most perfectly illustrated by Day-Lewis especially - could be raised to the level of GOAT (he's not imo) for what he DIDN'T do.....(ie not much crap, he was "consistent") DiCaprio is that logic run almost as parody-level wild.......his temperament isn't to put himself in stuff that will fail.......he's risk averse in a way.....he does take risks but they're smart risks......exceptionally smart But I feel like it's something that probably should have already happened but didn't for whatever reason. Should Olivier or whomever not be criticized for doing bullshit? Like what is the defense there? Henry James never wrote anything that wasn't good. Not everything was as great as The Wings of the Dove, The Golden Bowl, The Bostonians, The Portrait of a Lady, but shouldn't that credit him more than authors who had two or three strong works and troves of bad books? I think Mason's a better actor than Olivier, by the way.
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Post by pacinoyes on Dec 16, 2023 22:49:11 GMT
I've said this before - Leonardo DiCaprio is the full(est) fruition of a bad trend - and I love him - but it is a bad cultural trend that's not his problem - the culture of winning - you see it not just in movies, but everything - a sports mentality applied to the Arts. This is exacerbated by the Internet, list culture and the explosion of awards to use as metrics. The best actors of previous eras were never judged by their failures - Laurence Olivier say was in a lot of crap, he was still Laurence Olivier ffs and great actors - I mean GREAT actors - Guinness or James Mason etc - could never be him .......... his crap was just accepted as part of his greatness.......it is only in modern times that actors who didn't have a lot of crap - most perfectly illustrated by Day-Lewis especially - could be raised to the level of GOAT (he's not imo) for what he DIDN'T do.....(ie not much crap, he was "consistent") DiCaprio is that logic run almost as parody-level wild.......his temperament isn't to put himself in stuff that will fail.......he's risk averse in a way.....he does take risks but they're smart risks......exceptionally smart But I feel like it's something that probably should have already happened but didn't for whatever reason. Should Olivier or whomever not be criticized for doing bullshit? Like what is the defense there? Henry James never wrote anything that wasn't good. Not everything was as great as The Wings of the Dove, The Golden Bowl, The Bostonians, The Portrait of a Lady, but shouldn't that credit him more than authors who had two or three strong works and troves of bad books? I think Mason's a better actor than Olivier, by the way. The Olivier argumet was he COULD do what James Mason did but Mason couldn't have done what Olivier did at the level he did it - he wasn't "the man"........that's arguable, but it isn't simple - it isn't Djokovic being the undisputed Tennis GOAT or another sporting metric like that. Saying Mason was a better actor than Olivier is what I say when I say Willem Dafoe is a better film actor than ANY 80s American (an overrated class imo) - that's very arguable but I could make such a case - not a bigger star, not the biggest box offce draw but a better actor........ There tends to be a few arguments for "the best" actors - who did it first? Who did the most total great work? Who at their best was THE best? Etc.DDL almost by himself added another metric - the most consistent........does that make him "the best"? Not to me ........but if you thnk Henry James is "the best writer" because he didn't churn out crap for cash ..........well you could value that metric higher than I do myself.......that's fair.......
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Post by paulgallo on Dec 16, 2023 23:29:31 GMT
Because he gets first dibs on everything.
As Christian Bale put it:
“It’s not just me. Look, to this day, any role that anybody gets, it’s only because [Leo] passed on it beforehand,” Bale revealed. “It doesn’t matter what anyone tells you. It doesn’t matter how friendly you are with the directors. All those people that I’ve worked with multiple times, they all offered every one of those roles to him first. Right? I had one of those people actually tell me that. So, thank you, Leo, because literally, he gets to choose everything he does. And good for him, he’s phenomenal.”
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Dec 16, 2023 23:42:08 GMT
It's less to do with him being much more talented than his contemporaries and more because he is the last truly reliable box-office guarantee and because of that, he will always have first dibs on any project because all auteurs want their films to be commercially successful so that they can keep making their passion projects. But there was a period of the 2000s where people like Damon, Clooney, Depp, etc. were as bankable or more. He more or less re-emerged as a box-office story Inception onward. It's not like Titanic juiced him to where everything grosses $300m+ and the difference between him and a another famous guy was so stark. It's where it seems like he capitalizes on success in a way other people don't. Not so much that they weren't given the opportunity, but that they don't make use of it in the same way. All three of the guys you mentioned are bankable mostly within their franchises ( Bourne, Ocean's, Pirates of the Caribbean) and have spottier records outside of that - Depp significantly less so than the others in the 2000s. Leo didn't do a franchise, kept himself sparse, and worked exclusively under respected auteurs (mostly Scorsese, the most respected American filmmaker). For audiences, he developed an association with unique, quality films and was rare enough for it to still be notable anytime he was out promoting projects. Everyone else ended up hitting slumps or having the loss of the home video market fuck their commercial prospects and the type of movies they could get off the ground.
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 17, 2023 2:28:31 GMT
He's much more selective than most of his peers, and makes less movies on average. He's not Daniel Day-Lewis level selective, but since 1997, DiCaprio has made 20 films, which isn't a lot compared to his generational peer group.
Since 1997, Matt Damon has starred in 52 films. Since 1997, Christian Bale has starred in 36 films. Since 1997, Joaquin Phoenix has starred in 32 films ( and he took a break for a couple of years in the late 2000s).
Everyone else likes to work. Leo prefers to wait till an A-list Oscar level auteur is ready with an awards calibre project. Work less, more selectivity, less chance of having dud projects.
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Post by quetee on Dec 17, 2023 2:40:46 GMT
He's much more selective than most of his peers, and makes less movies on average. He's not Daniel Day-Lewis level selective, but since 1997, DiCaprio has made 20 films, which isn't a lot compared to his generational peer group.
Since 1997, Matt Damon has starred in 52 films. Since 1997, Christian Bale has starred in 36 films. Since 1997, Joaquin Phoenix has starred in 32 films ( and he took a break for a couple of years in the late 2000s).
Everyone else likes to work. Leo prefers to wait till an A-list Oscar level auteur is ready with an awards calibre project. Work less, more selectivity, less chance of having dud projects. Geez, seems like he starred in more than that.
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sirchuck23
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Post by sirchuck23 on Dec 17, 2023 2:52:36 GMT
Since 1997, Matt Damon has starred in 52 films. Since 1997, Christian Bale has starred in 36 films. Since 1997, Joaquin Phoenix has starred in 32 films ( and he took a break for a couple of years in the late 2000s).
Damn! I didn't realize Matt worked that much.
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 17, 2023 2:59:41 GMT
Since 1997, Matt Damon has starred in 52 films. Since 1997, Christian Bale has starred in 36 films. Since 1997, Joaquin Phoenix has starred in 32 films ( and he took a break for a couple of years in the late 2000s).
Damn! I didn't realize Matt worked that much. Yeah, Damon is a workhorse. Probably part of the reason he's taken for granted. He's never not in something.
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sirchuck23
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Post by sirchuck23 on Dec 17, 2023 3:04:09 GMT
Damn! I didn't realize Matt worked that much. Yeah, Damon is a workhorse. Probably part of the reason he's taken for granted. He's never not in something. Partly stems probably from being a struggling actor in the early to mid 90s before his big breakthrough. If a good part/director came along he would take it for sure.
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Post by stephen on Dec 17, 2023 3:09:12 GMT
Yeah, Damon is a workhorse. Probably part of the reason he's taken for granted. He's never not in something. Partly stems probably from being a struggling actor in the early to mid 90s before his big breakthrough. If a good part/director came along he would take it for sure. He also had a family to support. DiCaprio's famously not tied down and can afford to take whatever time away from filmmaking to live his life and do what he wants.
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 17, 2023 3:20:11 GMT
Partly stems probably from being a struggling actor in the early to mid 90s before his big breakthrough. If a good part/director came along he would take it for sure. He also had a family to support. DiCaprio's famously not tied down and can afford to take whatever time away from filmmaking to live his life and do what he wants. I think sirchuck23 statement is probably more applicable to Damon. The guy has been an A-list actor for over 25 years. He's definitely amassed generational wealth in that time. I wouldn't say that internet net worth estimates are neccesarily accurate, but some of them put his net worth at 250 million dollars. I wouldn't be shocked if he was worth much more than that. He probably could have retired many moons ago off the money he made off the back of the Bourne movies alone. He's not a flashy dude (or wasteful with his money like Nic Cage). I don't think he works like he does because he needs the money to put food on the table for his family. He just loves his job, loves working and realises that there are a couple of hundred actors ready and willing to take his place if he slows down. He never lost that struggling actor mentality from his years in the 90's trying to make it. So he's kept that blue collar work ethic. Like Samuel L Jackson. Even Nicole Kidman. At a certain point, it's clearly no longer about money. They just like working.
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sirchuck23
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Post by sirchuck23 on Dec 17, 2023 3:54:49 GMT
Partly stems probably from being a struggling actor in the early to mid 90s before his big breakthrough. If a good part/director came along he would take it for sure. He also had a family to support. DiCaprio's famously not tied down and can afford to take whatever time away from filmmaking to live his life and do what he wants. Oh for sure! Didn’t mean to discount that, but you hear sometimes about an actor/movie star hitting the big time and having all this financial/career success but in the back of their mind they are always that struggling actor wondering if they could make a living at this especially if it takes them “a while” to make it. I definitely see that with Samuel L. Jackson as Scrud said, Sam has enough generational wealth that he could’ve been retired, but he loves working and probably thinks back to when he didn’t make it until his mid-40s. Denzel is another one, etc.
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Post by futuretrunks on Dec 17, 2023 3:58:29 GMT
I don't want to derail this into a Matt Damon discussion. I've loved the dude from Day 1 and thought he was every bit as good as Leo in The Departed, was the best thing in True Grit (over Barry Pepper), etc. But even Damon isn't DiCaprio. Leo would never star in a film directed by Tobey Maguire out of friendship, though I don't think highly of Baz Luhrmann, so eh...
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Post by countjohn on Dec 18, 2023 0:00:08 GMT
I've had this discussion before, but I don't know why people talk about this as "choices" from Leo. Every actor out there would kill to play the lead in a Scorsese, Tarantino, or Nolan movie, it's not that nobody else wanted to do it and Leo "chose" it, he's just the first choice for everything. That's because he's the last actor left who can consistently open adult dramas and has done a good job schmoozing a list directors.
To address some of the other guys, Clooney was never even close to that level as a BO draw (where's Good God to go on his Clooney rant when you need him) and Depp and Damon did get plenty of good parts in the 2000's until they dropped off in the 10's. The "last movie star" narrative with Leo didn't really get going until his Wolf of Wall Street/Revenant era when he was getting those movies to grosses they clearly would not have gotten with any other actor.
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Post by futuretrunks on Dec 18, 2023 1:19:20 GMT
You don't think it's significant that other actors who are worth hundreds of millions didn't make the choices DiCaprio made? You think Leo in 2003 had such a stranglehold Clooney couldn't pick his pocket here and there?
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Post by pupdurcs on Dec 18, 2023 1:36:58 GMT
You don't think it's significant that other actors who are worth hundreds of millions didn't make the choices DiCaprio made? You think Leo in 2003 had such a stranglehold Clooney couldn't pick his pocket here and there? You can't compare DiCaprio ( age 49) to Clooney ( age 62). Not the same generation, had different entry points to stardom ( DiCaprio became a star as a teen, whilst Clooney was a D-lister for over a decade before becominga TV star with ER and transitioning to movie stardom in his late 30's). And they weren't in competition for roles either DiCaprio literally had the kind of head start into A-list stardom that very few actors get. It didn't really feel like he had to go through the same struggle many A-listers went through to reach the top. We know who Leo's generation were, and none of them had the easy ride to stardom he did ( Damon, Bale, Phoenix, Norton etc), so of course their choices would be different. None of them were in the same position as him.
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Post by rhodoraonline on Dec 18, 2023 1:51:11 GMT
I don't want to derail this into a Matt Damon discussion. I've loved the dude from Day 1 and thought he was every bit as good as Leo in The Departed, was the best thing in True Grit (over Barry Pepper), etc. But even Damon isn't DiCaprio. Leo would never star in a film directed by Tobey Maguire out of friendship, though I don't think highly of Baz Luhrmann, so eh... Damon made a movie for Tobey Maguire? Google is not helping. Or maybe I misunderstood your meaning
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Post by futuretrunks on Dec 18, 2023 2:29:12 GMT
You don't think it's significant that other actors who are worth hundreds of millions didn't make the choices DiCaprio made? You think Leo in 2003 had such a stranglehold Clooney couldn't pick his pocket here and there? You can't compare DiCaprio ( age 49) to Clooney ( age 62). Not the same generation, had different entry points to stardom ( DiCaprio became a star as a teen, whilst Clooney was a D-lister for over a decade before becominga TV star with ER and transitioning to movie stardom in his late 30's). And they weren't in competition for roles either DiCaprio literally had the kind of head start into A-list stardom that very few actors get. It didn't really feel like he had to go through the same struggle many A-listers went through to reach the top. We know who Leo's generation were, and none of them had the easy ride to stardom he did ( Damon, Bale, Phoenix, Norton etc), so of course their choices would be different. None of them were in the same position as him. I don't agree. They misused their privilege, at least compared to him. There's no reason Norton after American History X couldn't dictate how his career would proceed. It's so clear to me that DiCaprio just plain cares more than these guys, however comparable in pure acting talent they are. Damon muddies things a bit, but Norton? What a complete fucking underachiever if there ever was one.
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Post by stephen on Dec 18, 2023 2:33:57 GMT
You can't compare DiCaprio ( age 49) to Clooney ( age 62). Not the same generation, had different entry points to stardom ( DiCaprio became a star as a teen, whilst Clooney was a D-lister for over a decade before becominga TV star with ER and transitioning to movie stardom in his late 30's). And they weren't in competition for roles either DiCaprio literally had the kind of head start into A-list stardom that very few actors get. It didn't really feel like he had to go through the same struggle many A-listers went through to reach the top. We know who Leo's generation were, and none of them had the easy ride to stardom he did ( Damon, Bale, Phoenix, Norton etc), so of course their choices would be different. None of them were in the same position as him. I don't agree. They misused their privilege, at least compared to him. There's no reason Norton after American History X couldn't dictate how his career would proceed. It's so clear to me that DiCaprio just plain cares more than these guys, however comparable in pure acting talent they are. Damon muddies things a bit, but Norton? What a complete fucking underachiever if there ever was one. Norton quickly gained a reputation of being a difficult control freak on his films, which absolutely hurt him in the long run, as that reputation bled into his cultural image and hasn't shaken free as of this writing. American History X is a major reason why that reputation exists.
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