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Post by pacinoyes on Oct 12, 2023 21:58:59 GMT
See what I did there? I posted this clip in the KItbag thread - no comments - unimpressive and shit MAR - but there is no question that not everyone is going to like Phoenix's Napoleon - I mean I'm not saying he won't win some over but some are also going to hear the voice and tune out............Brando played Napoleon - passably imo but it wasn't great......this is one of the very few roles that two "best Americans of their generation" level actors - top 10 American actors ever? - took a stab at....... Is Napoleon the kind of role that American actors just can't "get" and is doomed to fail across the set pieces and spectacle? Nichholson and Pacino almost played it too.........for Kubrick in one case........who is the best English languge Napoleon? Ian Holm - who has played it a lot comes to mind? Should Phoenix have been cast - the "great role, requires a great actor" logic ...........or is he too famous and his presence too jarring? Is there another role that is that "anti-Churchill" btw?
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Post by stephen on Oct 12, 2023 22:11:43 GMT
Churchill is kind of a layup role for any middle-aged rotund British actor because all he has to do is mimic the man and have an ounce of gravitas. Funnily enough, arguably the best cinematic Churchill was an American: John Lithgow.
Napoleon is a bit of an interesting case because the role itself comes with a lot of pitfalls. First off, there's centuries of propaganda skewing our perception of Napoleon himself as a squat, unkempt man. Napoleon was of average height of the time, but even to this day, people persist in calling him short, even developing the whole Napoleon complex after him. There is also a distinct look to him in portraits, which are largely unflattering. I feel like the role is a tall order (no pun intended) just because anyone trying to get to the meat of Napoleon beyond a simple parody like Bill and Ted or Time Bandits, which has only served to further that aforementioned propaganda.
Now, people seem to have their knives at the ready for Ridley Scott's take for a few reasons. Notably, the casting of Joaquin Phoenix in the role. I have no doubt Phoenix carries the tormented genius vibe that an accurate portrayal of Napoleon requires, but Phoenix looks distinctly unlike our mental perception of Napoleon. More to the point, he's playing Napoleon across several decades, most of which are far younger than what Joaquin currently is, so already he's had a disadvantage of believability there. It may not be as distracting as, say, De Niro playing a 30-year-old in The Irishman, but it's still going to be a distraction regardless of the caliber of the work. Phoenix has to overcome that on top of being convincing as Napoleon in general. I trust in Ridley Scott to know what he's doing in this regard, because of his last collaboration with Phoenix, and indeed in the clip here I don't think Phoenix is bad at all. But again, it's going to be hard to see him as anything other than Joaquin Phoenix as Napoleon because we have a distinct mental image of the latter which Phoenix doesn't really resemble.
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SZilla
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Post by SZilla on Oct 12, 2023 22:13:40 GMT
Just saw and commented in the other thread before seeing this one. I've not seen Brando's take as Napoleon, but I do think Phoenix looks great (though as I said in the other thread, his speech is spoken so softly that I couldn't help but imagine people in the back of that crowd looking around and thinking "wtf did he say??")
I'll add that I don't really have too much knowledge on Napoleon besides the old "he's short and stubborn" myth, which is an interesting contrast to Abel Gance's Napoleon, which I watched earlier this year, as he seems to be portrayed as a type of savior.
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Post by futuretrunks on Oct 13, 2023 2:23:01 GMT
Phoenix is on track to become the most overrated actor of all time, next to Brando, though he's better than non-Godfather Brando.
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Post by countjohn on Oct 13, 2023 4:19:28 GMT
Well I think Brando is really good in Desiree despite the movie not being that great. Charles Boyer is good in Conquest too which is somewhat of a minor classic I think. So it's not like it's been failure after failure.
Outside of age I don't really think Phoenix is that far off for Napoleon physically. And I don't care about the accent, Napoleon wasn't speaking English either so that's just a silly complaint. Why should Phoenix be speaking English in a non native accent to represent Napoleon speaking French in a French accent?
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Post by stabcaesar on Oct 13, 2023 7:09:45 GMT
I thought Phoenix was awful in the snippets we see in the trailer. Maybe he'd be better in the actual film.
Kirby also feels like a miscast. Josephine was older than Napoleon, for one.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Oct 13, 2023 16:22:50 GMT
not expecting anything great from this movie save for Yates' costumes. Phoenix does seem really miscast based on the trailers. He's too American and contemporary.
I can't believe Herbert Lom wasn't nominated for Vidor's War and Peace in 1956. Towering presence for such a lil guy.
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Post by The Numbers on Oct 14, 2023 15:06:45 GMT
This is probably going to be a reputation damager for Phoenix. Playing one of the most famous figures in History and failing on this big a scale would hurt anyone. He was also miscast as Jesus in "Mary Magdalene" but he got away with it because that got buried and nobody saw or even heard of it. That won't be the case this time. Sure, he's got Joker 2 coming but is that even a good thing in the long run? He's been flirting with typecasting and self-parody for a while now (Beau is Afraid certainly didn't help on that front).
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Post by ibbi on Oct 14, 2023 17:42:37 GMT
My favourite Napoleon, like my favourite Joan of Arc and my favourite Lincoln, was the guy from Bill and Ted. Steiger is another great who really didn't do it very well. Neither of the Malloy boys coulda been a contender.
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