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Post by urbanpatrician on Jul 29, 2022 23:55:28 GMT
Following up the discussion me, pacinoyes, and pupdurcs were talking about.
These, in my opinion, are the best examples of actors who are great, but usually in films deemed irrelevant by a certain group of people:
Susan Hayward - In the 50s, she was popular. She should've beaten Anna Magnani in 1955 for her powerful and tragic portrayal in I'll Cry Tomorrow. But again, most people prefer Magnani because I think they've seen more Magnani movies. Nowadays you barely hear about her anymore because her films haven't stood the test of time.
Jessica Lange - Again, I feel like this has been beaten to death, but when compared to Pfeiffer or Close - pretty much everyone says the same thing............. Close and Pfeiffer were in more relevant movies.
Peter O'Toole - I doubt many people have seen him in many of his leads besides Lawrence of Arabia and The Lion in Winter. But again, I don't see him through the lens of just those 2 movies. I think he was just as good in The Ruling Class and My Favorite Year..... which are 25% of his nominations. He was actually better in those than he was in The Lion in Winter. Nobody hates him, I just think most people base his talent on basically 2 movies, like they do on Vivien Leigh.
Denzel Washington - A lot of people crap on him because they always mention his filmography is bad. Personally, I don't despise his filmography like some do. I think a few of his movies are extremely entertaining but observing IMDB for 20 years..... I generally don't see many people putting his movies in the top of the year like I see people put Nolan, Tarantino, DiCaprio, Scorsese, or PTA movies with as much frequency.
Marilyn Monroe - Again, I disagree with most of what I observed on IMDB. I get the impression most people aren't interested in many of her movies besides Some Like it Hot, in which she isn't the most talked about component in it anyways. Everyone knows who she is, as an icon, but they don't generally talk about her movies much. Again, this isn't my view - but I think one reason she usually loses polls to Audrey Hepburn, Elizabeth Taylor, or Vivien Leigh is because not many people have seen her movies.
Discuss. Who am I forgetting?
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Jul 30, 2022 1:34:02 GMT
Monroe and Denzel have good filmographies, specially her, considering how young she died. Denzel could have taken more risks, but at the same time he doesn't have a Gigli or anything that is truly disastrous.
But I agree that Lange is a very good example. Naomi Watts is also someone that, while she made a lot of good movies, also had some terrible choices. And of course Cuba Gooding Jr is probably the poster boy of this.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 30, 2022 1:36:08 GMT
It's an acting metric .......not the biggest but you can actually measure it so its not like it doesn't matter at all......and it matters at the highest level usually....
It's the Brando argument - he might be considered the GOAT if he didn't have classics - maybe - but since he has FOUR top 100 movies - all timers - Streetcar, Waterfront, Godfather, Apocalypse - that kind of solidifies his case more.
Among "the most acclaimed" actors with weak sauce filmographies ........Close / Page / Washington / Lange / Cage / O'Toole AFTER the 60s..... arguably Phoenix but he starred in a BP winner - which helps a lot are the obvious ones off the top of my head.
These are actors with big personal acclaim but not for their films nearly as much - at least not as Oscar BP nominees.....or who don't show up in MOST "best" film lists (you can always find them in some list somewhere)......
It's not necessarily weak in and of themselves but relative to people they're lumped in with.....:
Great actors are in great movies - period - and not just "in" them but they make them greater too.......if you don't have that - it's almost impossible to make it up as you get older. Being "better" than your movies is impressive ........but not that much......you need those BP nominees .......there's a lot "big fish / small pond" to always being better than your movie......
Put it this way Geraldine Page is a very great actress - with a lot of acclaim - but she routinely misses top 20 or top top 30 lists and if her filmography was better that wouldn't happen.....if she is in the top 10.......a better filmography gets her top 5........it always matters........and once you have it you can never lose it, no matter how much crap you then do....
There's also the weakness across genres in filmography too: Hopkins / Clift / Washington / Brando (arguably) / DDL / Duvall / Burton / Ullman missing comedy imo - they could do comedy, you could argue - but thinking about their filmographies it's under-represented within dramas or especially overt comedic roles.....compared to the actors they're lumped in with......
I mean I think DDL could be - and was - quite funny .......but he's often ranked opposite guys who hit the same dramatic heights as him (arguably) but also played across that other terrain "more" than him.
Eventually all actors run out of time ......you just don't get endless opportunity to show everything you can do ....
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Post by futuretrunks on Jul 30, 2022 1:51:52 GMT
Rebecca Hall and Andrea Riseborough beg to differ!
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Post by Mattsby on Jul 30, 2022 3:23:26 GMT
Put it this way Geraldine Page is a very great actress - with a lot of acclaim - but she routinely misses top 20 or top top 30 lists and if her filmography was better that wouldn't happen.....if she is in the top 10.......a better filmography gets her top 5........it always matters........and once you have it you can never lose it, no matter how much crap you then do....
She's an interesting case...... and she had some really buggy luck. Blacklisted right after her debut and first Oscar nom - no movies for almost ten years. Lotta awards losses (Oscars and Tonys) and finally a win in '86-- she dies a year later (only 62!). Between 18 Broadway plays and a dozen more Off-B, still managed lotta good stuff... If we were going by personal preference, I kinda like her career! So only 1-2 movies make my 200ish fav film list; I can say the same for Streep! There's the plays- Sweet Bird, Summer and Smoke, Toys in the Attic, Trip to Bountiful, the scrappy fun Ur a Big Boy Now, hag horror Aunt Alice, Pope of Greenwich Village (I'm a fan!), Hondo (my grandpa loved that movie), The Beguiled, Interiors..... gems nobody talks about like Monday's Child, A Christmas Memory. I believe MAR has fans of The Rescuers too. stephen ? Also dig some of those episodic choices: Night Gallery, Circle of Fear, Kojak. She covers lotta genres. Y'know whose movies mug a little lame in comparison, her Nasty Habits costar Glenda Jackson. 0/2 with Altman? c'mon Glenda! |
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 30, 2022 3:45:17 GMT
Following up the discussion me, pacinoyes, and pupdurcs were talking about. These, in my opinion, are the best examples of actors who are great, but usually in films deemed irrelevant by a certain group of people: Susan Hayward - In the 50s, she was popular. She should've beaten Anna Magnani in 1955 for her powerful and tragic portrayal in I'll Cry Tomorrow. But again, most people prefer Magnani because I think they've seen more Magnani movies. Nowadays you barely hear about her anymore because her films haven't stood the test of time. Jessica Lange - Again, I feel like this has been beaten to death, but when compared to Pfeiffer or Close - pretty much everyone says the same thing............. Close and Pfeiffer were in more relevant movies. Peter O'Toole - I doubt many people have seen him in many of his leads besides Lawrence of Arabia and The Lion in Winter. But again, I don't see him through the lens of just those 2 movies. I think he was just as good in The Ruling Class and My Favorite Year..... which are 25% of his nominations. He was actually better in those than he was in The Lion in Winter. Nobody hates him, I just think most people base his talent on basically 2 movies, like they do on Vivien Leigh. Denzel Washington - A lot of people crap on him because they always mention his filmography is bad. Personally, I don't despise his filmography like some do. I think a few of his movies are extremely entertaining but observing IMDB for 20 years..... I generally don't see many people putting his movies in the top of the year like I see people put Nolan, Tarantino, DiCaprio, Scorsese, or PTA movies with as much frequency. Marilyn Monroe - Again, I disagree with most of what I observed on IMDB. I get the impression most people aren't interested in many of her movies besides Some Like it Hot, in which she isn't the most talked about component in it anyways. Everyone knows who she is, as an icon, but they don't generally talk about her movies much. Again, this isn't my view - but I think one reason she usually loses polls to Audrey Hepburn, Elizabeth Taylor, or Vivien Leigh is because not many people have seen her movies. Discuss. Who am I forgetting? With Denzel, "a lot of people" these days claiming he has a poor filmography is mainly Pacinoyes  , who needs some angle to downplay Washington since he's become so ubiquitous in the GOAT discussion . Though some people do parrot him and on IMDB for years it was popular to downplay everything about Denzel (including his acting), it simply doesn't feel like a real thing. I simply don't see many people in the real world knocking Denzel's filmography. Quite the opposite. His filmography is generally regarded as excellent. Old films of his like Devil In A Blue Dress and Missisipi Massala are getting Criterion Collection releases, and those are seen as relatively minor entries in his filmography. Even dedicated elite film snobs like Criterion have a healthy respect for a portion of Denzel's filmography. He's able to beat Tom Hanks in Rotten Tomatoes "versus" discussions as to who has the preferred filmography: Whenever an old movie of Washington's goes on Netflix, it usually immediately shoots up their charts. In many circles, Washington has one of the most beloved filmographies for a modern Hollywood star. It's a canny mix of popcorn and prestige, and that's why he's nearly 70 years old and still an A-lister. The idea that Washington has a weak filmography just feels absurd and forced at this point. |
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Post by Mattsby on Jul 30, 2022 4:02:53 GMT
More names coming to mind for me.......
Raul Julia - he died pretty young but he's in too many movies far beneath his talents (same can be said of Oldman, Walken, etc).... and there's nothing extraordinary besides Needle Park and maybe Presumed Innocent.
Al Freeman Jr - maybe the best actor with the littlest career after Cazale? One kinda great movie with Dutchman. He's in Malcolm X too. Lotta extreme gaps across his career, lotta soap opera work, he was mainly a professor of acting at Howard.
Brian Cox - who carries himself as if he's Finney (he ain't), and yes he's in Rushmore, Zodiac, Match Point, Adaptation, Manhunter, best-pic winner Braveheart, and Succession is huge for him and his legacy, but otherwise, his 250 IMDb credits is a lot of hooey..... and you have to become an archaeologist to find his best perfs (Rat in a Skull, BBCs The Negotiator, Devil's Crown).
Julianne Moore - this century - besides Far From Heaven and Children of Men, what in the worldddd is going on? Early in the IMDb days (around 08 maybe) I once called her my second fav actress..... now I'm not sure she'd make my top 25. Thankfully, she has about ten awesome movies in the 90s....
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 30, 2022 4:02:58 GMT
Helen Mirren, I'd argue for someone of her stature has a fairly weak filmography. A few classics and acclaimed movies in there (Gosford Park, Excalibur, The Long Good Friday), but a surprisingly large amount of films that just feel completely irrelevant and found little favor with either critics or audiences.
So much of her goodwill came from her TV work in Prime Suspect. I feel she's similar to a lot of esteemed British actors with shaky filmographies. They don't seem especially picky or have great quality control, but because they bring gravitas to everything they do, people just kind of give them a pass for doing so many films of no consequence .
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Post by futuretrunks on Jul 30, 2022 4:54:06 GMT
Denzel's filmography is good. I don't get the hate. He doesn't have anything I'd put in the top 100 films of all time, but most great actors might have 2 things max in that category, and he has lots of good films.
Joaquin's post-Two Lovers filmography is lousy. Very bad. He's propped up as a Leo alternative because it's edgy, but it won't end well at all. Dude just isn't as committed an actor, or as discerning in seeking projects.
Most people can't name 5 Lange films. Her filmography is terrible and her Oscar win for Tootsie is ridiculous considering that Teri Garr performance. Like WTF?
I agree with pupdurcs that Mirren's filmography is crap. I had friends obsessed with Excalibur when we were kids, so we watched it like 15 times, and I didn't really know who she was until that overrated movie The Queen came out. The Crown is definitely an improvement on The Queen. Good actress, bad filmography.
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Post by stabcaesar on Jul 30, 2022 5:00:26 GMT
Joaquin's post-Two Lovers filmography is lousy. Very bad. He's propped up as a Leo alternative because it's edgy, but it won't end well at all. Dude just isn't as committed an actor, or as discerning in seeking projects. Lmao. Joaquin Phoenix worked with PTA, Lynne Ramsay, Spike Jonze in acclaimed films and won an Oscar for playing Joker post-Two Lovers, but he's filmography is lousy alright |
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Post by futuretrunks on Jul 30, 2022 5:02:59 GMT
Joaquin's post-Two Lovers filmography is lousy. Very bad. He's propped up as a Leo alternative because it's edgy, but it won't end well at all. Dude just isn't as committed an actor, or as discerning in seeking projects. Lmao. Joaquin Phoenix worked with PTA, Lynne Ramsay, Spike Jonze in acclaimed films and won an Oscar for playing Joker post-Two Lovers, but he's filmography is lousy alright The Master is one good scene surrounded by garbage. Inherent Vice is a travesty of the book. Her is utterly forgettable, completely unworthy of Adaptation. You Were Never Really Here was forgettable apart from the scene with Wock and the hitman on the floor. His Joker was trash compared to Ledger. Yeah, his filmography is lousy. You need me to yell it or something? Irrational Man is okay. Probably would have been better with Leo though as originally intended. |
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Post by stabcaesar on Jul 30, 2022 5:43:04 GMT
Lmao. Joaquin Phoenix worked with PTA, Lynne Ramsay, Spike Jonze in acclaimed films and won an Oscar for playing Joker post-Two Lovers, but he's filmography is lousy alright The Master is one good scene surrounded by garbage. Inherent Vice is a travesty of the book. Her is utterly forgettable, completely unworthy of Adaptation. You Were Never Really Here was forgettable apart from the scene with Wock and the hitman on the floor. His Joker was trash compared to Ledger. Yeah, his filmography is lousy. You need me to yell it or something? Irrational Man is okay. Probably would have been better with Leo though as originally intended. Lol, k hunny. |
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Post by futuretrunks on Jul 30, 2022 6:01:12 GMT
The Master is one good scene surrounded by garbage. Inherent Vice is a travesty of the book. Her is utterly forgettable, completely unworthy of Adaptation. You Were Never Really Here was forgettable apart from the scene with Wock and the hitman on the floor. His Joker was trash compared to Ledger. Yeah, his filmography is lousy. You need me to yell it or something? Irrational Man is okay. Probably would have been better with Leo though as originally intended. Lol, k hunny. I wish I was wrong, but I'm not. Too many of you still have this 1998 mentality about Leo. Wock isn't more talented, and he sure as hell isn't smarter about picking roles or films. We'll reconvene in 20 years when it's even more obvious. |
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Post by stabcaesar on Jul 30, 2022 6:04:43 GMT
I wish I was wrong, but I'm not. Too many of you still have this 1998 mentality about Leo. Wock isn't more talented, and he sure as hell isn't smarter about picking roles or films. We'll reconvene in 20 years when it's even more obvious. I really don't gaf lol. I find DiCaprio a talentless hack and his films are almost all pieces of junk. Joaquin Phoenix acts circles around him. |
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Post by futuretrunks on Jul 30, 2022 6:08:14 GMT
I wish I was wrong, but I'm not. Too many of you still have this 1998 mentality about Leo. Wock isn't more talented, and he sure as hell isn't smarter about picking roles or films. We'll reconvene in 20 years when it's even more obvious. I really don't gaf lol. I find DiCaprio a talentless hack and his films are almost all pieces of junk. Joaquin Phoenix acts circles around him. Good for you. Your opinion is garbage. |
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Post by stabcaesar on Jul 30, 2022 6:11:48 GMT
I really don't gaf lol. I find DiCaprio a talentless hack and his films are almost all pieces of junk. Joaquin Phoenix acts circles around him. Good for you. Your opinion is garbage. And your opinion is Putin. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 30, 2022 9:06:03 GMT
Denzel's filmography is good. I don't get the hate. He doesn't have anything I'd put in the top 100 films of all time, but most great actors might have 2 things max in that category, and he has lots of good films.
Joaquin's post-Two Lovers filmography is lousy. Very bad. He's propped up as a Leo alternative because it's edgy, but it won't end well at all. Dude just isn't as committed an actor, or as discerning in seeking projects. Most people can't name 5 Lange films. Her filmography is terrible and her Oscar win for Tootsie is ridiculous considering that Teri Garr performance. Like WTF? I agree with pupdurcs that Mirren's filmography is crap. I had friends obsessed with Excalibur when we were kids, so we watched it like 15 times, and I didn't really know who she was until that overrated movie The Queen came out. The Crown is definitely an improvement on The Queen. Good actress, bad filmography. 's filmography basically has 2 BP nominees iirc - that's Denzel level lowish for great actors (also just 2 BP nominees) - or Cage (0 iirc?), O'Toole (1 Post-60s, but it was a winner) - except Phoenix was in a BP winner and was more prominent in his 2 - he won a BP for 1 and and won an Oscar himself for the other nominee......despite our pesonal feelings that's something at least........... and he still has time to pad his resume. I like a lot of Phoenix's filmography and some of Washington's and Mirren's - a personal fave actress tbh - (only 2 BP nominees)........ even a bit of Lange's (2 BP also) etc. but the "good (or great) actor / actress , bad filmography applies to them all ..............at the highest level at least and for their rivals especially: - Washington's filmography looks a lot worse next to his main rival ( Hanks) and Phoenix is like that with his generational rival ( DiCaprio). Without comparisons to other "big" guys they're always compared too............. they'd be perfectly fine by themselves It isn't just Oscars but you would only see maybe 1 film of any of them Washington / Lange / Cage / Mirren / Phoenix on a major "best ever list" (maybe only Gladiator) ..........not only that you would see a very low number of their films of those actors COMBINED on most best of their individual "best of decades" lists even....... That's always a sign of a weak filmography even if we like some of it personally ourselves. |
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 30, 2022 9:58:33 GMT
Denzel's filmography is good. I don't get the hate. He doesn't have anything I'd put in the top 100 films of all time, but most great actors might have 2 things max in that category, and he has lots of good films.
Joaquin's post-Two Lovers filmography is lousy. Very bad. He's propped up as a Leo alternative because it's edgy, but it won't end well at all. Dude just isn't as committed an actor, or as discerning in seeking projects. Most people can't name 5 Lange films. Her filmography is terrible and her Oscar win for Tootsie is ridiculous considering that Teri Garr performance. Like WTF? I agree with pupdurcs that Mirren's filmography is crap. I had friends obsessed with Excalibur when we were kids, so we watched it like 15 times, and I didn't really know who she was until that overrated movie The Queen came out. The Crown is definitely an improvement on The Queen. Good actress, bad filmography. 's filmography basically has 2 BP nominees iirc - that's Denzel level lowish for great actors (also just 2 BP nominees) - or Cage (0 iirc?), O'Toole (1 Post-60s, but it was a winner) - except Phoenix was in a BP winner and was more prominent in his 2 - he won a BP for 1 and and won an Oscar himself for the other nominee......despite our pesonal feelings that's something at least........... and he still has time to pad his resume. I like a lot of Phoenix's filmography and some of Washington's and Mirren's - a personal fave actress tbh - (only 2 BP nominees)........ even a bit of Lange's (2 BP also) etc. but the "good (or great) actor / actress , bad filmography applies to them all ..............at the highest level at least and for their rivals especially: - Washington's filmography looks a lot worse next to his main rival ( Hanks) and Phoenix is like that with his generational rival ( DiCaprio). Without comparisons to other "big" guys they're always compared too............. they'd be perfectly fine by themselves It isn't just Oscars but you would only see maybe 1 film of any of them Washington / Lange / Cage / Mirren / Phoenix on a major "best ever list" (maybe only Gladiator) ..........not only that you would see a very low number of their films of those actors COMBINED on most best of their individual "best of decades" lists even....... That's always a sign of a weak filmography even if we like some of it personally ourselves. This is fucking dumb, even by your standards A good/great filmography is not judged by the amount of Best Picture Nominated films an actor appeared in. A lot of BP Nominated films do not stand the test of time, where many films that were not Oscar nominated do. Nicole Kidman has like 3 Best Picture Nominated films in her entire career, yet she arguably has one of the most admired and talked about filmographies of any actress in her era. Cary Grant wasn't in many Best Picture Nominated films, yet his filmography is considered legendary. Many actors with great filmographies have a low Best Picture nomination count. What makes a strong filmography is how films stand the test of time? 10, 20, 30 years after those films came out are people still actively talking about those films and hold them in high regard? Denzel has TONNE of those kind of movies. Go out in the real world and you'll still hear people talking about REMEMBER THE TITANS as one of their favorite movies, a film over 20 years old that didn't get close to any major awards. Same goes with things like MAN ON FIRE, which is a more loved and talked about film than most of the Best Picture Nominated films from the same year it came out. TRAINING DAY (which did not recieve a BP nomination) is today considered a far more beloved, quotable and influential film than A BEAUTIFUL MIND, which WON the Best Picture Oscar the same year it came out. Washington's filmography is strong because it is full of good films that have made a lasting impact on the public consciousness. He is not Jessica Lange, so you need to fucking stop trying it |
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Post by fiosnasiob on Jul 30, 2022 10:40:24 GMT
Denzel lacks that absolute, no brainer masterpiece that the majority of serious films buffs would put in their top 50 (The Godfather, Casablanca, Taxi Driver...) but his overall filmography is actually very good and it kind of shines when classified by genres, Glory is often cited as one of the best (and most important) wars films among American movies, same for Malcolm X for biographical movies, same for Philadelphia for courtroom drama, same for Training day for cops movies, you can always expect ones of his sports movies to be named among the best of the genre, if Much Ado About Nothing wasn't enough (but it was) you can be sure that Macbeth is/will be cited among the best Shakespeares movies, Fences is also one of the best Stage-to-Film adaptations, at least of the last 30 years... and he is himself SO big that his movies are stamped as being "Denzel's films" and they automatically becomes bigger, more importants, more...relevant. And in reverse, you cannot be THAT big, not only frequently considered to be the best actor out there but also one of the most iconic, popular, loved, respected, etc... without people liking your films, that doesn't happens.
I agree about Lange, she has a very mediocre filmography, a lot of films that people will never care about and despite being a great actress, she isn't big enough to really generate interest. I personally really like Streep filmography but compared to her rival like Bergman or Davis she lacks that absolute masterpiece, especially as a Lead but again her overall filmography is filled with very good stuff and she's so big herself that her films becomes bigger too.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 30, 2022 11:07:04 GMT
Phoenix's filmography basically has 2 BP nominees iirc - that's Denzel level lowish for great actors (also just 2 BP nominees) - or Cage (0 iirc?), O'Toole (1 Post-60s, but it was a winner) - except Phoenix was in a BP winner and was more prominent in his 2 - he won a BP for 1 and and won an Oscar himself for the other nominee......despite our pesonal feelings that's something at least........... and he still has time to pad his resume. I like a lot of Phoenix's filmography and some of Washington's and Mirren's - a personal fave actress tbh - (only 2 BP nominees)........ even a bit of Lange's (2 BP also) etc. but the "good (or great) actor / actress , bad filmography applies to them all ..............at the highest level at least and for their rivals especially: - Washington's filmography looks a lot worse next to his main rival ( Hanks) and Phoenix is like that with his generational rival ( DiCaprio). Without comparisons to other "big" guys they're always compared too............. they'd be perfectly fine by themselves It isn't just Oscars but you would only see maybe 1 film of any of them Washington / Lange / Cage / Mirren / Phoenix on a major "best ever list" (maybe only Gladiator) ..........not only that you would see a very low number of their films of those actors COMBINED on most best of their individual "best of decades" lists even....... That's always a sign of a weak filmography even if we like some of it personally ourselves. * This is fucking dumb, even by your standards * Cary Grant wasn't in many Best Picture Nominated films, yet his filmography is considered legendary. Many actors with great filmographies have a low Best Picture nomination count. * He is not Jessica Lange* Thanks for not callng me a racist, homophobe, misogynist today - stay classy. * Cary Grant was the star of 4 BP nominees in 10 years - that's off the top of my head - do you know movies at all? - I'm serious - wtf are you even talking about to bring up Grant's name here - and expect people of MAR not to call BS? *** Grant doubles Washington & Lange and even Phoenix in amount - and you rarely see him ranked as one of the all time actors (not merely "stars" which he obviously is)............... he didn't have as much individual acclaim as Washington or Phoenix or Lange either: Lange is the most awarded American actor male or female across the Triple Crown - EVER ............ Washington & Phoenix could be called the best film actor of their respective generations - and sometimes are.......and in the what - top 10-15 class of American male film actors ........... ever (?)........these people have 5 acting Oscars between them - Grant had 2 nods  GTFO * Washington may not "be" Jessica Lange - but that's not what I said - I said by itself, his filmography is adequate:
But when it comes to filmography - he (and Phoenix atm) - are more importantly also " not" Newman, Lemmon, Streep, Brando, De Niro, Nicholson, DiCaprio, Pacino, Hanks, Hoffman, Hackman, etc. either and there's a lot more. These people are in multiple BP nominees, in winners usually AND with plenty of films that have "stood the test of tiime" on top of it and routinely show up on "Best of All Time" lists or "Best of Decade" lists.........unlike Washington / Cage / Lange / O'Toole (Post 60s) / Page /Mirren / Close - who do not do that to the same degree - at all. It isn't that Washington and Phoenix lack "a" masterpiece - they lack top 10s for their years too usually - it's the lack of depth in filmographies and arguably range of comedic work - in comparison to people that are routinely mentioned as "the best" English language film actors. It's ok - they have other things that make them special.........but filmographies? Nah Have a nice day....... |
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 30, 2022 11:09:21 GMT
* This is fucking dumb, even by your standards * Cary Grant wasn't in many Best Picture Nominated films, yet his filmography is considered legendary. Many actors with great filmographies have a low Best Picture nomination count. * He is not Jessica Lange* Thanks for not callng me a racist, homophobe, misogynist today - stay classy. * Cary Grant was the star of 4 BP nominees in 10 years - that's off the top of my head - do you know movies at all? - I'm serious - wtf are you even talking about to bring up Grant's name here - and expect people of MAR not to call BS? *** Grant doubles Washington & Lange and even Phoenix in amount - and you rarely see him ranked as one of the all time actors (not merely "stars" which he obviously is)............... he didn't have as much individual acclaim as Washington or Phoenix or Lange either: Lange is the most awarded American actor male or female across the Triple Crown - EVER ............ Washington & Phoenix could be called the best film actor of their respective generations - and sometimes are.......and in the what - top 10-15 class of American male film actors ........... ever (?)........these people have 5 acting Oscars between them - Grant had 2 nods GTFO * Washington may not "be" Jessica Lange - but that's not what I said - I said by itself, his filmography is adequate:
But when it comes to filmography - he (and Phoenix atm) - are more importantly also " not" Newman, Lemmon, Streep, Brando, De Niro, Nicholson, DiCaprio, Pacino, Hanks, Hoffman, Hackman, etc. either and there's a lot more. These people are in multiple BP nominees, in winners usually AND with plenty of films that have "stood the test of tiime" on top of it and routinely show up on "Best of All Time" lists or "Best of Decade" lists.........unlike Washington / Cage / Lange / O'Toole (Post 60s) / Page /Mirren / Close - which do not do that to the same degree - at all. It isn't that Washington and Phoenix lack "a" masterpiece - they lack top 10s for their years too usually - it's the lack the depth of filmographies and arguably range of comedic work - in comparison to people that are routinely mentioned as "the best" English film actors. It's ok - they have other things that make them special.........but filmographies? Nah Have a nice day....... Dude, you're a fucking hater!
Awards (Oscars/Tony's etc) are meaningless and "corrupt" when you need them to be or disagree with their results, yet are indicators of "quality" and "must haves" when you need them to be. It's insane to watch your constant jig You don't need to write a novel to justify being a hater. It is what it is |
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 30, 2022 11:17:48 GMT
Denzel lacks that absolute, no brainer masterpiece that the majority of serious films buffs would put in their top 50 (The Godfather, Casablanca, Taxi Driver...) but his overall filmography is actually very good and it kind of shines when classified by genres, Glory is often cited as one of the best (and most important) wars films among American movies, same for Malcolm X for biographical movies, same for Philadelphia for courtroom drama, same for Training day for cops movies, you can always expect ones of his sports movies to be named among the best of the genre, if Much Ado About Nothing wasn't enough (but it was) you can be sure that Macbeth is/will be cited among the best Shakespeares movies, Fences is also one of the best Stage-to-Film adaptations, at least of the last 30 years... and he is himself SO big that his movies are stamped as being "Denzel's films" and they automatically becomes bigger, more importants, more...relevant. And in reverse, you cannot be THAT big, not only frequently considered to be the best actor out there but also one of the most iconic, popular, loved, respected, etc... without people liking your films, that doesn't happens. I agree about Lange, she has a very mediocre filmography, a lot of films that people will never care about and despite being a great actress, she isn't big enough to really generate interest. I personally really like Streep filmography but compared to her rival like Bergman or Davis she lacks that absolute masterpiece, especially as a Lead but again her overall filmography is filled with very good stuff and she's so big herself that her films becomes bigger too. THIS  |
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 30, 2022 12:01:47 GMT
* Just to be clear - I have never said Oscars are "meaningless" - and they can obviously be "corrupt" without being "meaningless" - but you have to speak English well enough to understand that these are not - at all - "the same thing"......... * I said in my first post that it doesn't come down to just Oscars / BP nods .......but Lange, Washington, Page etc. are also missing almost entirely from the BAFTA BP nods, Golden Globes BP nods, AFI top 100, the IMDB top 250, the TSPDT list - and that's a top 1000 - top 1000 (!), Sight & Sound Poll and on and on.........do they show up on "some" lesser consensus lists a bit- sure they can appear here and there - but that's not the same thing when you miss almost ALL of those big ones entirely? That's not a "pacinoyes" thing........that's just a "fact" thing..... movie-awards-redux.freeforums.net/thread/10224/tspdt-updated |
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 30, 2022 12:08:10 GMT
Ed Norton is somewhat like Phoenix - in that he was in a best picture winner in Support, got nodded - and a lot of people consider Fight Club to be an era defining film (not me) and The 25th Hour some love (I like it, but not THAT much).
Phoenix would be ahead of him maybe by virtue of the way The Master is held at a "best of its decade" level .....but Norton's another one whose filmography in general has been something of a let down to general audiences relative to his personal acclaim.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 30, 2022 16:44:57 GMT
* Cary Grant wasn't in many Best Picture Nominated films, yet his filmography is considered legendary. Many actors with great filmographies have a low Best Picture nomination count. * Cary Grant was the star of 4 BP nominees in 10 years - that's off the top of my head - do you know movies at all? - I'm serious - wtf are you even talking about to bring up Grant's name here - and expect people of MAR not to call BS? *** Grant doubles Washington & Lange and even Phoenix in amount - and you rarely see him ranked as one of the all time actors (not merely "stars" which he obviously is)............... he didn't have as much individual acclaim as Washington or Phoenix or Lange either: Lange is the most awarded American actor male or female across the Triple Crown - EVER ............ Washington & Phoenix could be called the best film actor of their respective generations - and sometimes are.......and in the what - top 10-15 class of American male film actors ........... ever (?)........these people have 5 acting Oscars between them - Grant had 2 nods Just to correct this post - ^ Grant was in 6 BP nominees  - and not just "he was in them" either but a star - and Phoenix already surpasses Lange / Washington in only his 40s - with 3 not 2 - but Grant who has a fine but not "all-timer" filmography still doubles or triples all the people we were talking about in comparison to him. Sorry Cary - that's what I get for trying to do it off the top of my head early in the AM post slight hangover before my coffees kicked in ............you know what I mean right buddy:  |
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, who needs some angle to downplay Washington since he's become so ubiquitous in the GOAT discussion . Though some people do parrot him and on IMDB for years it was popular to downplay everything about Denzel (including his acting), it simply doesn't feel like a real thing.
- and not just "he was in them" either but a star - and Phoenix already surpasses Lange / Washington in only his 40s - with 3 not 2 - but Grant who has a fine but not "all-timer" filmography still doubles or triples all the people we were talking about in comparison to him. 