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Post by stephen on Aug 5, 2018 3:48:41 GMT
what makes that death scene worse as far as it being Nolan's fault is that Cotillard has said there were multiple tales of that scene and she was mad that was the one he used Whaaaat.....!?!😠So Nolan actually had other takes, and still used that one. Jesus. I think Nolan is just one of those directors who casts skilled actors and let's them do their thing, but doesn't really care much about the details of acting. 90% of the time he gets away with it, because he tends to hire the best actors in the business, but every so often his lack of care in this area leads to disasters like Cotillard. To be fair, The Dark Knight Rises is easily the one film of Nolan's where I don't feel he seemed to care about the finished film. It's got its moments of greatness, but for the most part it feels like Nolan going through the motions, and going with that Cotillard take just feels almost like an admission of guilt on his part. |
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Post by bob-coppola on Aug 5, 2018 3:58:02 GMT
Finally took time to see the whole list and give it a thought. Very, very good choices. Pretty much my whole line-up made the cut, which is great. The only thing that irks me is the lack of younger, contemporary talent. I think girls like Dunst (for whom I voted), Portman (same), Ronan and Lawrence deserved to appear at least at somewhere in the Top 50.
My other three votes that didn't make the list:
- Glenda Jackson (living legend)
- Hilary Swank (weak filmography on the side, she was outstanding and delivered two all-time best performances in Boys Don't Cry and Million Dollar Baby)
- Sônia Braga (just wish more people had seen Aquarius and other stuff with her)
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Post by pupdurcs on Aug 5, 2018 4:02:31 GMT
Whaaaat.....!?!😠So Nolan actually had other takes, and still used that one. Jesus. I think Nolan is just one of those directors who casts skilled actors and let's them do their thing, but doesn't really care much about the details of acting. 90% of the time he gets away with it, because he tends to hire the best actors in the business, but every so often his lack of care in this area leads to disasters like Cotillard. To be fair, The Dark Knight Rises is easily the one film of Nolan's where I don't feel he seemed to care about the finished film. It's got its moments of greatness, but for the most part it feels like Nolan going through the motions, and going with that Cotillard take just feels almost like an admission of guilt on his part. I think you are letting Nolan off too easy. The guy can simply be careless (or even inept) when it comes to gauging performances. He let Christian Bale down with the OTT Bat-voice in The Dark Knight. And he wasn't going through any motions there. He just didn't realise how stupid Bale sounded and none of his flunkies were brave enough to tell him. I imagine the same scenario with the Cotilliard death scene. He probably thought it was good till audiences pointed out it was comical. |
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Post by stephen on Aug 5, 2018 4:23:15 GMT
To be fair, The Dark Knight Rises is easily the one film of Nolan's where I don't feel he seemed to care about the finished film. It's got its moments of greatness, but for the most part it feels like Nolan going through the motions, and going with that Cotillard take just feels almost like an admission of guilt on his part. I think you are letting Nolan off too easy. The guy can simply be careless (or even inept) when it comes to gauging performances. He let Christian Bale down with the OTT Bat-voice in The Dark Knight. And he wasn't going through any motions there. He just didn't realise how stupid Bale sounded and none of his flunkies were brave enough to tell him. I imagine the same scenario with the Cotilliard death scene. He probably thought it was good till audiences pointed out it was comical. Eh, I don't quite hate the Bat-voice to the extent most do, but even if it was a poor decision in hindsight, I don't think that it really detracts from the film to the extent that its memetic status would imply. I think Bale's kind of let down by the fact that Batman is the least interesting thing about the movie; the Joker and Harvey Dent dominate it so thoroughly that he just can't compete. The Cotillard scene is dumb, and it should be mocked, but I actually think Nolan has far more talent and skill with his actors than you seem to give him credit for. Memento has three or four strong performances I nominate, one of whom is my win (Harriet Sansom Harris). Insomnia has a great Robin Williams performance and a fascinating Pacino one. Batman Begins and The Dark Knight have terrific villains and I think Bale does quite well in the first one. The Prestige's co-leads are good and Bowie was superb. Inception has one of the first turns from DiCaprio in years where I think he managed to eschew the "intense wanna-be" mold that had plagued him through most of the 2000s, and Cotillard/Hardy/Murphy/Watanabe are excellent in it as well. Interstellar is anchored by a masterful McConaughey performance and while I'm not sold on the supporting cast save for the magnificent Bill Irwin, he and McConaughey are more than enough to save the film from being considered "inept" on the acting front. And everyone comes to play in Dunkirk, even if it isn't an actor's setpiece. I think Nolan wants so very much to be the Kubrick of blockbusters (and your mileage may vary on whether he's come close to it), but I think he has thus far avoided the trap that Kubrick fell into with 2001 and actually still manages to direct and evoke human performances out of his actors. He's not faultless, but I think that for all of the overwhelming fan adulation he gets (which is, I admit, a little aggravating at times), he also cops far more crap than I think he deserves. He is a very good actor's director; you don't get performances like Ledger's Joker, McConaughey's Cooper or the Memento gang if you aren't. |
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Post by pupdurcs on Aug 5, 2018 4:35:17 GMT
I sort of disagree. Kubrick and Hitchcock were not known to be actors directors. They literally regarded actors as chess pieces or cattle. They cared little for actors asking about character motivation. But they have quite a lot of outstanding performances in their films. They planned and storyboards their films meticulously (like Nolan) and simply hired creme de la creme of film actors to interpret their scripts. When you hire Kirk Douglas or Peter Sellers or James Mason or Jack Nicholson, you are getting a finished product, who 9 times out of 10,needs minimal direction to give a notable peformance.
Directors like Kubrick, Hitchcock and Nolan cast well. They are not neccesarily great actors directors, even though they often hire actors who can give them great performances.
I mean, c'mon...how difficult is it to hire Tom Hardy and Mark Rylance and tell them to 'act good'.lol!
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Post by stephen on Aug 5, 2018 4:48:22 GMT
I sort of disagree. Kubrick and Hitchcock were not known to be actors directors. They literally regarded actors as chess pieces or cattle. They cared little for actors asking about character motivation. But they have quite a lot of outstanding performances in their films. They planned and storyboards their films meticulously (like Nolan) and simply hired creme de la creme of film actors to interpret their scripts. When you hire Kirk Douglas or Peter Sellers or James Mason or Jack Nicholson, you are getting a finished product, who 9 times out of 10,needs minimal direction to give a notable peformance. Directors like Kubrick, Hitchcock and Nolan cast well. They are not neccesarily great actors directors, even though they often hire actors who can give them great performances. I mean, c'mon...how difficult is it to hire Tom Hardy and Mark Rylance and tell the to 'act good'.lol! Well, I think Kubrick fucked up immensely by casting Nicholson, but point taken. I guess it comes down to what's on the page. Hitchcock and Kubrick were extreme perfectionists in that arena, although I'd argue Hitch had a far better idea of what worked than Kubrick did. Kubrick and Nolan share a lot of the same issues: great concept men that need someone else to really boil their ideas into a cohesive, believable narrative for them to shoot. The Dark Knight Rises is by far Nolan's sloppiest screenplay, and Cotillard got saddled with a terrible character who shouldn't have even been in the movie, and no one could've salvaged it. No one. |
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Post by mhynson27 on Aug 5, 2018 5:26:09 GMT
Whaaaat.....!?!😠So Nolan actually had other takes, and still used that one. Jesus. I think Nolan is just one of those directors who casts skilled actors and let's them do their thing, but doesn't really care much about the details of acting. 90% of the time he gets away with it, because he tends to hire the best actors in the business, but every so often his lack of care in this area leads to disasters like Cotillard. To be fair, The Dark Knight Rises is easily the one film of Nolan's where I don't feel he seemed to care about the finished film. It's got its moments of greatness, but for the most part it feels like Nolan going through the motions, and going with that Cotillard take just feels almost like an admission of guilt on his part. Just out of pure curiosity, what moments in particular? |
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Aug 5, 2018 6:12:43 GMT
My other three votes that didn't make the list: - Glenda Jackson (living legend) oh shit I just realized she didn't make the lineup. What a disappointing omission. |
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Schiggy
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Post by Schiggy on Aug 5, 2018 7:05:31 GMT
11/25 isn't bad. Where did Kathy Bates place? (The tragedy is that we had multiple ties, and she still didn't make it)!  |
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Post by pupdurcs on Aug 5, 2018 9:20:22 GMT
I sort of disagree. Kubrick and Hitchcock were not known to be actors directors. They literally regarded actors as chess pieces or cattle. They cared little for actors asking about character motivation. But they have quite a lot of outstanding performances in their films. They planned and storyboards their films meticulously (like Nolan) and simply hired creme de la creme of film actors to interpret their scripts. When you hire Kirk Douglas or Peter Sellers or James Mason or Jack Nicholson, you are getting a finished product, who 9 times out of 10,needs minimal direction to give a notable peformance. Directors like Kubrick, Hitchcock and Nolan cast well. They are not neccesarily great actors directors, even though they often hire actors who can give them great performances. I mean, c'mon...how difficult is it to hire Tom Hardy and Mark Rylance and tell them to 'act good'.lol!  Who the fuck was Malcolm Mcdowell before Clockwork orange or Vincent D'Onofrio before Full metal Jacket? They were unknown and they looked very great in the hand of Kubrick! There were obviously some serious attempt on how to make them look great than just told them to act good! Are you kidding me about McDowell? McDowell gave what I consider to be his greatest film performance in Lindsay Anderson's If....3 years before A Clockwork Orange. If...is continually ranked one of the greatest British films ever made, and no small part of that is due to McDowell's perform ance. McDowell was a known quantity when Kubrick cast him. Casting McDowell after watching If...would be one of the easiest calls Kubrick ever made. Granted, D'Onofrio was not a known quantity on film when he did Full Metal Jacket, so credit to Kubrick for watching his audition tape and casting him. But the guy was already a Broadway stage actor who was extensively trained at the Actors Studio. It's not like he was some untrained schmuck who walked in off the street and Kubrick taught him how to act. D'Onofrio had the training, had the stage experience and had the chops to be a world class actor before Kubrick ever heard of him. He just needed the break in a movie, which Kubrick gave him. |
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urbanpatrician
Based
"I just wanna go back, back to 1999. back to hit me baby one more time" - Charli XCX
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Post by urbanpatrician on Aug 5, 2018 10:01:23 GMT
Lol... I just realized Julie Christie is completely invalid and forgotten into the oblivion. And nobody has asked where she placed. Not that I think there's any explanation for this other than the Christie fans from back then simply didn't make it on this board. Lots of Huppert and Hunter fans have apparently migrated though because neither would be top 15 three years ago.
Also, Emily Watson is now reduced to a mere 90s thing, and has really really faded. I think she was popular around the same time Mike Leigh was, and similarly....... I just don't think we're in the era of the 3rd British wave or anything like in the 90s.
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Aug 5, 2018 10:04:52 GMT
I can't believe you didn't make that Top 50 MsMovieStar   |
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Post by MsMovieStar on Aug 5, 2018 10:21:10 GMT
I can't believe you didn't make that Top 50 MsMovieStar
Oh honey, I've been so busy in a off Broadway show that I haven't been around much so people have forgotten me...otherwise I would be the Top One!
Does anyone know of any good bars in Nebraska?
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Aug 5, 2018 10:29:18 GMT
Great job Helzapoppin for the hard work. Great prentation, loved those quotes ''twas a nice touch. So Saoirse should be represented in the next iteration given how close she was. Although part of me feels a little silly having not seen enough of a lot of these actress's to potentially include them. Also Julianne Moore being here felt wrong, she's had as many terrible performances as great performances and most of these actresses at their worst I would consider an average performance again at their worst, but Moore has a couple of the top of my head that are awful and in great films no less (Magnolia, The Hours) I love Moore overall, but I was a little surprised at her performance. She was up at about 7th / 8th place at one point, and she was 7th in the end in terms of most ballot appearances, but a one point was leading that race. I think the lower end of the Top 25 would have been a good place for her, but I am happy she made it. |
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Aug 5, 2018 10:34:38 GMT
Finally took time to see the whole list and give it a thought. Very, very good choices. Pretty much my whole line-up made the cut, which is great. The only thing that irks me is the lack of younger, contemporary talent. I think girls like Dunst (for whom I voted), Portman (same), Ronan and Lawrence deserved to appear at least at somewhere in the Top 50. My other three votes that didn't make the list: - Glenda Jackson (living legend) - Hilary Swank (weak filmography on the side, she was outstanding and delivered two all-time best performances in Boys Don't Cry and Million Dollar Baby) - Sônia Braga (just wish more people had seen Aquarius and other stuff with her) Dunst was 64th and Portman 61st. Swank was 183rd and Braga 195th. A lot of the most surprising omissions seemed to fall in the next section of about 51 - 75, which had a spread of less than 30 points covering it. |
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Aug 5, 2018 10:36:28 GMT
11/25 isn't bad. Where did Kathy Bates place? (The tragedy is that we had multiple ties, and she still didn't make it)! 76th place, and that was with a very late charge. If I recall correctly, it was a long time into the ballots until she was even mentioned. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 5, 2018 11:33:01 GMT
Who the fuck was Malcolm Mcdowell before Clockwork orange or Vincent D'Onofrio before Full metal Jacket? They were unknown and they looked very great in the hand of Kubrick! There were obviously some serious attempt on how to make them look great than just told them to act good! Are you kidding me about McDowell? McDowell gave what I consider to be his greatest film performance in Lindsay Anderson's If....3 years before A Clockwork Orange. If...is continually ranked one of the greatest British films ever made, and no small part of that is due to McDowell's perform ance. McDowell was a known quantity when Kubrick cast him. Casting McDowell after watching If...would be one of the easiest calls Kubrick ever made. Granted, D'Onofrio was not a known quantity on film when he did Full Metal Jacket, so credit to Kubrick for watching his audition tape and casting him. But the guy was already a Broadway stage actor who was extensively trained at the Actors Studio. It's not like he was some untrained schmuck who walked in off the street and Kubrick taught him how to act. D'Onofrio had the training, had the stage experience and had the chops to be a world class actor before Kubrick ever heard of him. He just needed the break in a movie, which Kubrick gave him. I think going through these posts there's a lot of good points in what you're discussing but I would say that Kubrick is not much like Hitchcock at all in how he felt about actors. Kubrick just doesn't work in tandem with his lead actor much but he didn't think actors were cattle in the way Hitchcock did to me - and that's crucial (to me). It is true that in his other (earlier) films the performances at first seem like they are a result of the film - but really what we sometimes call "an actor's director" is really a nice way of saying "a director who won't say no to an actor" - well that's not Kubrick - but he has too much actorish flourishes in his films to be like Hitch or moving them around like the chess pieces/cattle quote - there's too much weirdness in Sellers and Scott to not think some of that is director driven.............but where he gets really interesting with this stuff is his last few films where he is almost another Kubrick in relation to actors entirely. The Shining needs Jack Nicholson and THAT Jack Nicholson (some disagree, that's fine, to me it's my fave) - Barry Lyndon did not need any Ryan O'Neal etc. - it's a different approach but the same guy directing - and Eyes Wide Shut (which I f'n loathe) needed Cruise and Kidman too - it's not stunt casting, it's the director very consciously shaping his film through casting. A great clip, that I posted in The Shining thread where Steven Spielberg discusses the slinky he got when he was 7 and how that made him the big baby he is today blah blah blah : |
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Post by stephen on Aug 5, 2018 12:40:54 GMT
To be fair, The Dark Knight Rises is easily the one film of Nolan's where I don't feel he seemed to care about the finished film. It's got its moments of greatness, but for the most part it feels like Nolan going through the motions, and going with that Cotillard take just feels almost like an admission of guilt on his part. Just out of pure curiosity, what moments in particular? Michael Caine's entire performance, many of the early Bane sequences. |
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Aug 5, 2018 14:13:14 GMT
Oh honey, I've been so busy in a off Broadway show that I haven't been around much so people have forgotten me...otherwise I would be the Top One!
Does anyone know of any good bars in Nebraska?
Oh Honey I campaigned you like crazy! I put a giant FYC ads where you wore an expensive fur coat just like melissa leo, but nobody cared! That's probably why things didn't work out for her , you Jinx !  |
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Aug 5, 2018 14:15:49 GMT
I can't believe you didn't make that Top 50 MsMovieStar
Oh honey, I've been so busy in a off Broadway show that I haven't been around much so people have forgotten me...otherwise I would be the Top One!
Does anyone know of any good bars in Nebraska?
Oh honey! You also need a new agent ASAP !  |
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Javi
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Post by Javi on Aug 5, 2018 16:10:11 GMT
Lol... I just realized Julie Christie is completely invalid and forgotten into the oblivion. And nobody has asked where she placed. Not that I think there's any explanation for this other than the Christie fans from back then simply didn't make it on this board. Lots of Huppert and Hunter fans have apparently migrated though because neither would be top 15 three years ago. Also, Emily Watson is now reduced to a mere 90s thing, and has really really faded. I think she was popular around the same time Mike Leigh was, and similarly....... I just don't think we're in the era of the 3rd British wave or anything like in the 90s. Christie would've been my number one or two but I completely forgot to vote ;( |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 17:11:21 GMT
Lol... I just realized Julie Christie is completely invalid and forgotten into the oblivion. And nobody has asked where she placed. Not that I think there's any explanation for this other than the Christie fans from back then simply didn't make it on this board. Lots of Huppert and Hunter fans have apparently migrated though because neither would be top 15 three years ago. Also, Emily Watson is now reduced to a mere 90s thing, and has really really faded. I think she was popular around the same time Mike Leigh was, and similarly....... I just don't think we're in the era of the 3rd British wave or anything like in the 90s. Christie would've been my number one or two but I completely forgot to vote ;( Christie was third on my ballot... No Rampling or Anjelica Huston, either.  |
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Javi
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Post by Javi on Aug 5, 2018 20:26:09 GMT
Christie would've been my number one or two but I completely forgot to vote ;( Christie was third on my ballot... No Rampling or Anjelica Huston, either. Anjelica Huston would've been on my ballot too. Haven't seen enough Rampling sadly. That said, I feel like the biggest omission of all is the great Jeanne Moreau. |
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Post by Pavan on Aug 6, 2018 20:49:45 GMT
These are all over the place. Ingrid should be no.1, Liz Taylor should be higher and Viola Davis should've made the list instead of Naomi Watts. Thanks for doing this Johnny_Hellzapoppin. Looking forward to the Best Actors presentation. |
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Aug 6, 2018 21:12:37 GMT
These are all over the place. Ingrid should be no.1, Liz Taylor should be higher and Viola Davis should've made the list instead of Naomi Watts. Thanks for doing this Johnny_Hellzapoppin . Looking forward to the Best Actors presentation. The highest Davis got was the mid 40s, then she slipped out of the Top 50, finishing in the worst place of all...#51. |
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