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Post by Viced on Mar 11, 2018 21:46:16 GMT
I know.... different generations, not all American.....
but which two out of these three would you put higher on a list of the "greatest living actors" if you made one?
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Post by thomasjerome on Mar 11, 2018 21:49:15 GMT
Pacino
DDL
Denzel
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Mar 11, 2018 22:28:59 GMT
Considering their peaks, this would be my ranking. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Mar 11, 2018 22:37:24 GMT
Well this a good question because it implicitly takes the discussion more broadly (and you could replace Pacino with Nicholson or someone too and that would be good too) and even though I can't say any of them is definitively the "greatest" - I will answer with my take on it, sorry it's so long.
Basically Pacino and DDL were scarily identical at one time - if you stop them after their Oscars - DDL with TWBB and Pacino after Scent of A Woman. Both were approximately the same age, same amount of films and had comparable levels of acclaim and their detractors said the same things about each (over-actors, can't do comedy, one does period pieces, the other contemporary New York films). After that things get different and Pacino in total is really more like Washington as an actor in many, many other ways - both are iconic, both do theater, both love Shakespeare, both could carry 3 hour movies on their backs too.......Washington is very much in an American tradition that goes from Brando to Pacino (and the 70s guys) to Washington.
I would pick DDL because he's different from them - they are uniquely American actors so the choice is between them - as much as I hate DDL's selectivity and lack of work across genres.
Pacino is my pick over Washington because despite all the crap (and honestly there's a lot of crap now after he turned 60) he's given me more pleasure than any other actor. I can't think of any actor who has a deeper filmography than him of great performances and I expect Paterno to be another.......and that's key because it isn't that when Pacino gets a good script he can still be good - rather, it's when he cares at all - regardless of the script. In 2014/15 with Manglehorn, The Humbling and Danny Collins - and he was better than all those scripts and he was 75 - those were all better than good and entirely different from each other......no one does that at 75. He's now financed 5 movies that fuse theater with film with his own money, no one does that either.......... and those films wouldn't exist without that being done - in that way he's like a Cassavetes, which if you think about it is insane - he's like a Brando AND a Cassavetes.
Washington though he hasn't hit greatness as much for my taste - to me he's like a Lemmon or a Newman -
is a guy that deserves the utmost respect for his challenges and consistency - Fences was a risk not a slam dunk (and he's at the age now when Pacino started to decline), and his love of the theater is just great - I can nitpick some things I don't like about him but they're not really relevant here, the point is, he's very major and I'm a respectful fan.
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Post by pupdurcs on Mar 11, 2018 22:37:45 GMT
Well, Denzel never often did that hot on IMDB polls, and this place is a pretty much a spin-off, so I expect the pattern to continue  . He might win an industry poll though. Denzel DDL Pacino |
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Post by FrancescoAbides on Mar 11, 2018 23:30:45 GMT
peak Pacino is the best goddamn thing in this world..but DDL's work speaks for itself, he is magnificent.
Mr. Plainview for sure
then Al Pacino
then Denzel
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Javi
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Post by Javi on Mar 12, 2018 2:30:56 GMT
Both Pacino and Day-Lewis are all-time great to me.
Pacino is probably more entertaining to watch so I'll vote for him.
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Mar 14, 2018 9:02:53 GMT
DDL PACINO WASHINGTON Fantastic actors ! Love them all !  |
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Post by Kirk-Picard on Mar 14, 2018 11:31:57 GMT
1)Pacino
2)DDL
3)Denzel
Gap between each very large
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Post by pupdurcs on Mar 14, 2018 13:45:08 GMT
1)Pacino 2)DDL 3)Denzel Gap between each very large Ironically enough, when all of them are dead, Denzel is going to be considered the greatest by most, probably by a significant margin. I equate it to many people not fully appreciating Muhammed Ali as (arguably) the Boxing GOAT till he was old and frail and had Parkinson's. Denzel is the Ali of acting. Many people won't give him his full props until he's frail or dead (much of that is to do with his race, unfortunately. Acting has always been considered the white mans game). His peers (and maybe a lot of the general public) know the truth though, and that's enough for now. But when their legacies are all complete, I think Washington will in the words of Joe Carnahan, "wipe the floor with everyone" I'm not usually wrong about these things either  |
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Post by Kirk-Picard on Mar 14, 2018 14:12:12 GMT
1)Pacino 2)DDL 3)Denzel Gap between each very large Ironically enough, when all of them are dead, Denzel is going to be considered the greatest by most, probably by a significant margin. I equate it to many people not fully appreciating Muhammed Ali as (arguably) the Boxing GOAT till he was old and frail and had Parkinson's. Denzel is the Ali of acting. Many people won't give him his full props until he's frail or dead (much of that is to do with his race, unfortunately. Acting has always been considered the white mans game). His peers (and maybe a lot of the general public) know the truth though, and that's enough for now. But when their legacies are all complete, I think Washington will in the words of Joe Carnahan, "wipe the floor with everyone" I'm not usually wrong about these things either Ok |
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Post by pupdurcs on Mar 14, 2018 15:34:10 GMT
Ironically enough, when all of them are dead, Denzel is going to be considered the greatest by most, probably by a significant margin. I equate it to many people not fully appreciating Muhammed Ali as (arguably) the Boxing GOAT till he was old and frail and had Parkinson's. Denzel is the Ali of acting. Many people won't give him his full props until he's frail or dead (much of that is to do with his race, unfortunately. Acting has always been considered the white mans game). His peers (and maybe a lot of the general public) know the truth though, and that's enough for now. But when their legacies are all complete, I think Washington will in the words of Joe Carnahan, "wipe the floor with everyone" I'm not usually wrong about these things either Whatever helps you sleep at night. Well, what Carnahan said and the discussion it provoked obviously got you triggered enough to start this poll (which is essentially a Movie Redux popularity contest), so I'm not sure I'm the one losing any sleep. Just saying. I'm just quietly confident😉 |
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Post by pupdurcs on Mar 14, 2018 16:05:36 GMT
Well, what Carnahan said and the discussion it provoked obviously got you triggered enough to start this poll, so I'm not sure I'm the one losing any sleep. Just saying. I'm just quietly confident😉 I'm not triggered at all... I created the poll just to see Denzel come in third place... And I love Denzel btw. Just think it's a bit crazy for you to be so confident that he's the best living actor. Because you wanted reassurance, and you know Denzel is not quite as beloved by this crowd, as he is by other crowds.It"s sort of meaningless.A popularity contest depending on where you ask. I saw a Twitter poll today asking who was the greatest actor out of DDL, Hanks, Dicaprio and Denzel. Denzel is crushing everybody with 62% the vote. DDL is a distant 2nd with 22%. I'm not going to get overexcited by a Twitter poll either, even though it favors my point of view. Best actor of this generation? A) Denzel Washington---TRAINING DAY/Malcolm X/John Q B) Tom Hanks---FORREST GUMP/PHILADEPHIA/Green Mile C) Leonardo DiCaprio---THE REVENANT/Titanic/The Departed D) Daniel Day Lewis---THERE WILL BE BLOOD/LINCOLN/Gangs of New York #DAJustAsking |
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Post by pacinoyes on Mar 14, 2018 18:42:12 GMT
Denzel isn't like Ali though, Ali was an athlete and at least in his case you'd have discernible facts to talk about - he won this fight, he lost that fight, you don't even have that with Denzel (or anyone else in the discussion) all we have is subjective awards and impressions. With actors at a certain level you start to eventually go in circles anyway. Even with Ali, I mean "the consensus" can consider him the best of all time but Ken Norton broke his f'n jaw and beat him at his peak and Joe Lewis was more dominant and no one, period beat Marciano......or Gene Tunney as a heavyweight. So, there's not dissent, there's logical dissent......and he has a way better case than any actor would have........ Usually people who say things like Carnahan did don't even really WANT a discussion. They want a drop the mic moment.....  |
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Post by stephen on Mar 14, 2018 18:59:38 GMT
Denzel isn't like Ali though, Ali was an athlete and at least in his case you'd have discernible facts to talk about - he won this fight, he lost that fight, you don't even have that with Denzel (or anyone else in the discussion) all we have is subjective awards and impressions. With actors at a certain level you start to eventually go in circles anyway. Even with Ali, I mean "the consensus" can consider him the best of all time but Ken Norton broke his f'n jaw and beat him at his peak and Joe Lewis was more dominant and no one, period beat Marciano......or Gene Tunney as a heavyweight. So, there's not dissent, there's logical dissent......and he has a way better case than any actor would have........ Usually people who say things like Carnahan did don't even really WANT a discussion. They want a drop the mic moment..... I agree with this. Comparing art to athletics or anything else with a known, quantifiable result is a folly in itself. Even when one tries to approximate it with the closest thing to stats in acting (awards), it's still problematic because it comes down not due to prowess but to politics and accessibility of the work itself. I think trying to speculate on an actor's reputation as "the greatest" is just going to come down to personal taste. There is much evidence that Washington is highly respected and has cemented himself as a great actor who will endure, but will he be considered the greatest of all time? For some, certainly. For others, not at all. That goes for Pacino, for Day-Lewis, for Olivier, for Guinness, for Brando, for Clift, for Hanks, for any of 'em. What you can argue for is, how influential Washington is and will be. A lot of the "youngbloods" idolize him in much the same way Washington's generation idolized De Niro/Pacino, and how those guys looked up to Brando/Clift. That is indisputable. But I'm sure that for every Carnahan tweet about Washington being "the greatest actor alive," there's an equally credible opinion that it's Day-Lewis, or that it's Rylance, or that it's Pacino, and so on. The only thing we can really use this tweet as evidence of is that Carnahan is a big fan of Washington. |
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Post by therealcomicman117 on Mar 15, 2018 5:37:45 GMT
Washington
DDL
Pacino
Love all three, though Pacino's outpet in the last decade kinda bumps him down a bit for me.
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Post by fiosnasiob on Mar 16, 2018 13:56:42 GMT
Denzel then Pacino then Day-Lewis. Needless to say, all brillant actors. Before opening the topic I knew Denzel would be third, not surprising but I think he's doing pretty well against these two beloved giants. There is a little contrast between the love and respect Denzel can gets in serious film forums like this one, award daily, Goldderby, etc... and others places, social medias...probably more reflective of the real world. I think it's due to the lack of works under hyped, most acclaimed directors in his filmography. I've say before that he probably never worked with arguably the 10 (considered) greatest hollywood directors of the last 25 years, which is a shame. In serious films forums, no matter how good you are as an actor, if your filmography isn't appealling enough or too mainstream you are loosing some "points". And it's so much more easy to love (and sometimes overrate) a performance in a movie you love than in something you would rate 6.5/10, especially for "films snobs". Hello Phantom Thread !  Not having the luck to work with PTA, Scorsese, Mann, Tarantino, Spielberg, Nolan, Iñárritu, etc... all these brillant directors that make great movies and have tons of fanboys in serious films forums is definitely a weak point and a disadvantage and it will always works against him in these kind of "greatest living actors" topics but despite of that I think he is doing extremely well. Talent as big as his, can't be ignored. |
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Post by pupdurcs on Mar 16, 2018 14:16:07 GMT
Denzel then Pacino then Day-Lewis. Needless to say, all brillant actors. Before opening the topic I knew Denzel would be third, not surprising but I think he's doing pretty well against these two beloved giants. There is a little contrast between the love and respect Denzel can gets in serious film forums like this one, award daily, Goldderby, etc... and others places, social medias...probably more reflective of the real world. I think it's due to the lack of works under hyped, most acclaimed directors in his filmography. I've say before that he probably never worked with arguably the 10 (considered) greatest hollywood directors of the last 25 years, which is a shame. In serious films forums, no matter how good you are as an actor, if your filmography isn't appealling enough or too mainstream you are loosing some "points". And it's so much more easy to love (and sometimes overrate) a performance in a movie you love than in something you would rate 6.5/10, especially for "films snobs". Hello Phantom Thread ! Not having the luck to work with PTA, Scorsese, Mann, Tarantino, Spielberg, Nolan, Iñárritu, etc... all these brillant directors that make great movies and have tons of fanboys in serious films forums is definitely a weak point and a disadvantage and it will always works against him in these kind of "greatest living actors" topics but despite of that I think he is doing extremely well. Talent as big as his, can't be ignored. Good points (and again, it's telling that in the social media twitter poll, Denzel is destroying DDL, Dicaprio and Hanks with ease. So the contrast in venues matters). I sometime feel like I may be underrating Pacino these days. The man was an absolute beast in his prime. Godfather II is probably my favorite male performance on film by any actor other than Denzel. But Pacino's descent into caricature and me feeling he's run out of fresh ideas for over 20 years (despite doing some solid work here and there) has made me take off the kid gloves for Al. |
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Post by pacinoyes on Mar 16, 2018 14:32:27 GMT
I think holding Pacino's bad work against him is valid in this kind of comparison especially because DDL and Denzel are far (far) more consistent. But I would just say in his defense, in the last 20 years, the weakest of his career he has more good to great work than any other actor I can think of. It's more than just some solid work here - it's like I said, it's when he cares at all - if you step back and look at it:
Angels in America, The Insider, Insomnia, YDK Jack, Salome/Wilde Salome, Merchant of Venice, Phil Spector, The Humbling, Danny Collins, Manglehorn, (some would dispute those but replace them with a few others anyway I'm not including) etc. Paterno is another possibility for that list and is pending.....not all of those is great but all of that is good or better and there's a ton of range there.
This is in the ages of 59-78 (roughly, 1999-now, 20 years), you'd be hard pressed to find an actor, ANY ACTOR (ever?), who matches that amount of good in this age range............but the slumming work is unfortunate and hurts him in other ways.
It certainly is something you have to explain when compared to DDL and Denzel, it's a problem and it didn't have to be that way......
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Mar 16, 2018 15:13:05 GMT
DDL and Pacino would be saved due to their peaks.
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Post by jimmalone on Mar 17, 2018 19:05:34 GMT
1. Pacino
2. Day-Lewis
3. Washington
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 22, 2018 14:08:16 GMT
A somewhat interesting argument came up last night from a friend of mine related to this:
At what point is DDL effectively removed from this list by his stated retirement? Like he's 60 now, even if you don't believe him.......he flat out can't act for the forseeable future having played this retirement hand before and he would be seeming like the movie equivalent of Brett Favre. You assume his retirement goes into theater and TV too.
Neither Washington or Pacino have any projects on film coming up now - other than Equalizer 2 and The Irishman.......DDL may be done? My point is, what about the guys not on this comparison list but that are in the shadows to potentially overtake them in the late stages - Rylance or Oldman maybe Fiennes for DDL or older Caine, Hopkins, Finney for British actors, for Americans I don't think you can go older but.........Jeff Bridges maybe or do you have to go wayyyyyyyyyyy younger - DiCaprio?
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Post by countjohn on Apr 22, 2018 23:17:55 GMT
A somewhat interesting argument came up last night from a friend of mine related to this: At what point is DDL effectively removed from this list by his stated retirement? Like he's 60 now, even if you don't believe him.......he flat out can't act for the forseeable future having played this retirement hand before and he would be seeming like the movie equivalent of Brett Favre. You assume his retirement goes into theater and TV too. Neither Washington or Pacino have any projects on film coming up now - other than Equalizer 2 and The Irishman.......DDL may be done? My point is, what about the guys not on this comparison list but that are in the shadows to potentially overtake them in the late stages - Rylance or Oldman maybe Fiennes for DDL or older Caine, Hopkins, Finney for British actors, for Americans I don't think you can go older but.........Jeff Bridges maybe or do you have to go wayyyyyyyyyyy younger - DiCaprio? The thing with DDL is that it took him so long to do movies anyway it wouldn't feel that weird if he did another one in five years, which is what he would have done even without a "retirement". Wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that's what happens. It's not like he said he was going to retire and then did a movie the very next year or something. |
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Post by stephen on Apr 22, 2018 23:37:34 GMT
A somewhat interesting argument came up last night from a friend of mine related to this: At what point is DDL effectively removed from this list by his stated retirement? Like he's 60 now, even if you don't believe him.......he flat out can't act for the forseeable future having played this retirement hand before and he would be seeming like the movie equivalent of Brett Favre. You assume his retirement goes into theater and TV too. Neither Washington or Pacino have any projects on film coming up now - other than Equalizer 2 and The Irishman.......DDL may be done? My point is, what about the guys not on this comparison list but that are in the shadows to potentially overtake them in the late stages - Rylance or Oldman maybe Fiennes for DDL or older Caine, Hopkins, Finney for British actors, for Americans I don't think you can go older but.........Jeff Bridges maybe or do you have to go wayyyyyyyyyyy younger - DiCaprio? I don't think you can effectively remove Day-Lewis from consideration that easily. The man's run spanned three decades, and in that time he couped an unprecedented three Best Actor wins, and his other three nominations were very well-received. Time will only tell how Phantom Thread will be received, as it is by far the "quietest" performance of his to get recognized. But even so, in that glorious thirty-odd years (let's say it starts with his breakout twofer of My Beautiful Laundrette/A Room With a View), he went from being one of the Brit Pack pretty-boys to a hugely respected Oscar-winner to being an elder statesman who Time recognized as potentially being the world's greatest actor. Day-Lewis may not have had the prolific output, but his career has been so meteoric that you can chart his success in stages similar to the likes of Pacino and Washington. Early acclaim ( My Left Foot), a strong post-Oscar run (his '90s output, which is very strong), his 2000s output (in which he more or less reinvents what we knew of Day-Lewis from the smoldering, intense Brit/Irishman to the volcanic force of nature we associate with him today), and finally his 2010s double-act, which feels like the perfect button on one hell of a career for a leading man. Time will tell if Phantom Thread remains Day-Lewis's final word on the matter (for my money, I'd say he'll be back, but in supporting roles), but regardless of where his peers go from here, Day-Lewis will always be in contention for the crown. |
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 23, 2018 0:14:38 GMT
A somewhat interesting argument came up last night from a friend of mine related to this: At what point is DDL effectively removed from this list by his stated retirement? Like he's 60 now, even if you don't believe him.......he flat out can't act for the forseeable future having played this retirement hand before and he would be seeming like the movie equivalent of Brett Favre. You assume his retirement goes into theater and TV too. Neither Washington or Pacino have any projects on film coming up now - other than Equalizer 2 and The Irishman.......DDL may be done? My point is, what about the guys not on this comparison list but that are in the shadows to potentially overtake them in the late stages - Rylance or Oldman maybe Fiennes for DDL or older Caine, Hopkins, Finney for British actors, for Americans I don't think you can go older but.........Jeff Bridges maybe or do you have to go wayyyyyyyyyyy younger - DiCaprio? You probably have to go way younger. We basically already know the ceiling for all these other older guys for the most part, and it's hard to see how most could improve their careers enough to get there. Rylance will be a theatrical legend, but even with his Oscar, he's never catching up to the leading actor film legacies of people like Pacino and Washington (or DDL). Hopkins has settled into comfortably floating on his gravitas for nearly 20 years., barely extending himself . He had an essential film run in the 90's, but he's the white Morgan Freeman at this point. Finney is highly esteemed, but for some reason doesn't get brought into those "greatest ever" conversations as much as he maybe should. And considering his age, i think he's nearly done. Fiennes seems to be his generations Finney. Respected, but perpetually on the fringes of the discussion. But I do think Fiennes has the most potential to have some sort of career renniassance where he maybe wins an oscar and gets some nods in succession and he starts being hailed the best actor working/living, similar to how Anthony Hopkins jumped up a couple of rungs in esteem in the 90's after Silence Of The Lambs, before settling into a gravitas-for-rent industry status (ala Freeman). Bridges and Caine....consistently excellent film actors hurt by their lack of theatrical /stage pedigree, especially coming from generations where it was almost considered a requirement. Unless Bridges goes on some out-of-nowhere Bryan Cranston style stage run, I don't think reputation-wise he can climb much further than he already has, which is mighty impressive anyway. I doubt Bridges is suddenly going to decide at nearly age 70 that he wants to become a stage actor to boost his rep. Bridges is also a bit hurt by never really having one of those top 10 of all-time type great performances that usually make those lists (a Malcolm X or Godfather or There Will Be Blood or Raging Bull).Caine is too old for stage. He'll always be one of Britains greatest and most beloved movie stars. Oldman's already one of the great character actors of all time, but I don't seem him getting the type of run of quality leading roles that vaults him into that territory (not to mention that I very much doubt he'll do much or any stage again, even though he's been talking about it. Think he was mostly excited by the moment and recognition). I don't see his status changing much from where it is. He'll continue to make many bad movies or franchise movies for easy paychecks, and occassionally end up in some dull, but classy British period flick produced by Working Title. So Fiennes has the best chance, imho, of one day moving up several rungs to be talked of at that level. He's great on stage, already been a significant leading man on film, and could be again (if he gets that Hopkins style Silence Of The Lambs moment). But that's all very, very hypothetical. |
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