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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 27, 2020 4:28:43 GMT
Two episodes into The Return. I mostly quite like it. The pace is slow and steady. Never boring, always taking its time. Nothing terribly astounding yet. The brain on a tree was dumb, and all of this doppelganger business is getting old. Still, good stuff.
And that guy in the jail cell in episode 2... was that the homeless guy from Mulholland Drive? IS THIS A SHARED UNIVERSE. That scene was the best part of the movie, despite having absolutely no purpose to anything at all. I'd be thrilled to have more weird homeless guy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 5:52:22 GMT
Two episodes into The Return. I mostly quite like it. The pace is slow and steady. Never boring, always taking its time. Nothing terribly astounding yet. The brain on a tree was dumb, and all of this doppelganger business is getting old. Still, good stuff. And that guy in the jail cell in episode 2... was that the homeless guy from Mulholland Drive? IS THIS A SHARED UNIVERSE. That scene was the best part of the movie, despite having absolutely no purpose to anything at all. I'd be thrilled to have more weird homeless guy. Not the same figure (also that was a representation of Diane's guilt in MD, lol) but there is more weird homeless guy coming ahead Don't care much for the Evolution of the Arm myself, one of a few small gripes I have with The Return.
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Post by notacrook on Feb 27, 2020 11:26:39 GMT
Two episodes into The Return. I mostly quite like it. The pace is slow and steady. Never boring, always taking its time. Nothing terribly astounding yet. The brain on a tree was dumb, and all of this doppelganger business is getting old. Still, good stuff. And that guy in the jail cell in episode 2... was that the homeless guy from Mulholland Drive? IS THIS A SHARED UNIVERSE. That scene was the best part of the movie, despite having absolutely no purpose to anything at all. I'd be thrilled to have more weird homeless guy. Yeah, the brain on a tree thing was perhaps my least favourite thing about The Return - could not take that thing seriously at all. However, such a small gripe being my main issue with the season speaks more to its overall greatness than anything else.
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 27, 2020 12:08:49 GMT
Two episodes into The Return. I mostly quite like it. The pace is slow and steady. Never boring, always taking its time. Nothing terribly astounding yet. The brain on a tree was dumb, and all of this doppelganger business is getting old. Still, good stuff. And that guy in the jail cell in episode 2... was that the homeless guy from Mulholland Drive? IS THIS A SHARED UNIVERSE. That scene was the best part of the movie, despite having absolutely no purpose to anything at all. I'd be thrilled to have more weird homeless guy. Not the same figure (also that was a representation of Diane's guilt in MD, lol) It's been a while since I saw the movie, but I'm kind of remembering that element. I think you're right. The thing is, the movie took so long to get to explaining that part that I (a.) had stopped giving much of a crap about the main plot because I didn't find it especially compelling, and (b.) forgot that it received any explanation at all, what with that scene having no impact on the story. That's the thing: it was just random surreal nonsense that had "meaning" but didn't actually matter to the narrative. IIRC. I'm probably wrong.
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 28, 2020 3:36:55 GMT
Return parts 3-4
Thank god that we're finally out of the Black Lodge. Ugh, the stupid, weightless surrealism was so annoying. Nice to see the plot moving, since it didn't through the first two parts. This was mainly wacky comedy, which is a good thing because I was getting tired of the dour tone. The whole scene with Wally Brando was brilliant and I hope that he never appears again and nothing about his character ever matters to anything, because that would make his one scene so much funnier.
The Dougie plot is, uh... well, I'm enjoying it for the silly 90's-ness of it all. It's like Lynch felt like making a Robin Williams or Jim Carrey movie so decided to throw that in. It's fine for now, but already the rampant goofiness is straining my patience. Pair that with the goofiness of Andy, Lucy and Hawk solving the mystery of the missing chocolate bunny and this is eccentricity overload.
Trouble is, when the show does go dark it turns into weightless surreal land. By weightless, I mean that anything that happens in these scenes don't matter. Not emotionally, not narratively. They may have a purpose symbolically, but who gives a crap. Surreal happenings are cool and all, but they need an emotional hook (characters we care for in *genuine* danger) or a narrative hook (they make enough sense at the time to actually understand how they could impact the plot, instead of looking back on them and saying "whoa, this was telegraphed by some random words spoken by a mystic space volleyball!"), and Lynch doesn't bother with either of those.
Also, Bobby Briggs appeared in this and I didn't recognize him until he saw the picture of Laura, even though everyone kept calling him by name. It's the white hair that did it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 4:00:58 GMT
Also, Bobby Briggs appeared in this and I didn't recognize him until he saw the picture of Laura, even though everyone kept calling him by name. It's the white hair that did it. Funny enough I actually thought Bobby was one of the most recognizable of the old cast. The one that took me at a second at first was actually James
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 28, 2020 4:45:38 GMT
Also, Bobby Briggs appeared in this and I didn't recognize him until he saw the picture of Laura, even though everyone kept calling him by name. It's the white hair that did it. Funny enough I actually thought Bobby was one of the most recognizable of the old cast. The one that took me at a second at first was actually James I didn't recognize James at all and still wouldn't, but he was pointed out really quickly. Apparently Shelly was in that scene as one of the girls talking about him(?), but I don't know which one she was. And I assume Donna was there and was the girl all the others were talking to, although I didn't pause the credits to check. The thing with Bobby is that he was named as "Bobby" a few times and had that whole scene where he's talking about how he is watching trails for drugs coming into Twin Peaks, and I never connected him.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 5:08:14 GMT
Funny enough I actually thought Bobby was one of the most recognizable of the old cast. The one that took me at a second at first was actually James I didn't recognize James at all and still wouldn't, but he was pointed out really quickly. Apparently Shelly was in that scene as one of the girls talking about him(?), but I don't know which one she was. And I assume Donna was there and was the girl all the others were talking to, although I didn't pause the credits to check. The thing with Bobby is that he was named as "Bobby" a few times and had that whole scene where he's talking about how he is watching trails for drugs coming into Twin Peaks, and I never connected him. Donna actually is not in The Return at all. Shelly was just with some new friends. I think the only one who gets named in that scene is Renee, the one who looks at James with a slight spark of interest
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 1, 2020 2:27:16 GMT
The Return parts 5-7 "Fuck Gene Kelly, motherfucker!" Somewhere in part 5 or 6, this show clicked for me. I think it was during Dr. Jacoby's podcast that I connected with The Return's leisurely pace, as it slowly works in characters that are not necessarily important to any main plot, but gives them the respect to allow their time to shine. This counts for Harry Dean Stanton's character (can't remember his name) with that lovely scene of him watching the mother and her child, and it counts for Ben Horne silently remembering Laura, and it counts for Janey (or whatever Naomi Watts is named) as she tries to navigate the minefield her life has become, and it counts for Shelly giving her daughter money when she knows that she shouldn't, and it counts for Frank and Doris doing the most spot-on impression of my parents that I have ever seen (seriously, it is eerie). In a way, it's no different from the soap opera of the original show: it had major ADD and couldn't focus on any one character for very long. But the original treated everyone as soap opera characters. The Return gives them the respect they were never afforded in the land of Nadine's high school wrestling and the ridiculous Martel story and James being seduced by older women. Some of these were fun (I genuinely enjoyed Nadine's nonsense and Lucy's baby drama), but they were shallow entertainments. The Return has some silliness, but it feels more organic to the characters: the quote I listed above made me laugh so much because it didn't feel like it was *meant* to be funny, it just felt like a natural thing for Albert to say. It was natural. So yeah, I'm on Lynch's wavelength. Just don't ever go to the Black Lodge again, and we're golden. Please, David. Don't do it. Things are stupid there.
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 3, 2020 2:21:02 GMT
The Return part 8 God DAMN it, David. What did I just say? WHAT DID I TELL YOU?
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 6, 2020 4:13:52 GMT
The Return parts 9-11
When this show works, it is amazing. It balances characters and always respects them. I just finished part 11, and there was never a moment when Lynch and Frost looked down on anyone. Becky, Bobby, Shelly, Gordon, Albert, the Mitchum brothers (can I have a whole spinoff show of them being wholesome gangsters?), Janey-E, the Brennans, Sheriff Truman, Dr. Jacoby... and all the way down the line. The first two seasons made fun of its characters, it mocked the soap trappings and went full sitcom at times.
And I was okay with that. It worked. But this offers people like Nadine dignity ("Run Silent, Run Drapes" gave me a good laugh and made me smile that I was laughing with her instead of at her). It understands Ben's yearning for his assistant and doesn't judge him for his actions. It understands the family dynamic of Becky, Shelly and Bobby. It admires how Janey-E handles her struggles. I could go on with every damn character.
Every. Damn. Character.
Do I think this show could be better? Yes. Erase part 8. But any work that gives this much respect to its cast of characters is something special.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 6:43:03 GMT
Besides the last two, Part 11 is my favorite hour of The Return. Absolutely brilliantly nuanced, hilarious, disturbing, and perfectly paced from start to finish.
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Post by stinkybritches on Mar 6, 2020 14:42:24 GMT
Do I think this show could be better? Yes. Erase part 8. you rat bastard.
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Post by Zeb31 on Mar 6, 2020 15:01:19 GMT
Do I think this show could be better? Yes. Erase part 8. Okay first of all how dare you.
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 6, 2020 15:12:43 GMT
Besides the last two, Part 11 is my favorite hour of The Return. Absolutely brilliantly nuanced, hilarious, disturbing, and perfectly paced from start to finish. It's my favorite hour of the entire story. Interestingly, the only characters that don't interest me much are Evil Cooper (very bland) and Dougie (I like everything around him, but Dougie himself is tired). Cooper was the best part of the first couple of seasons, and it is a courageous move to have MacLachlan play two characters and not reprise the Dale we knew. Not sure it *works* but it is courageous.
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 11, 2020 4:26:54 GMT
The Return parts 12-14
Let's make it official: I don't care about the plot. Its built around keeping secrets from the audience, and that almost never works. These last three episodes have been all plot and "mysterious goings-on" and I don't give a crap.
Also, am I supposed to know who Billy is? Everyone is talking about Billy.
Bah. I'm so bored, man. So, so bored. Can we go back to when this was good? Just three episodes ago? Because this is so spectacular when it isn't up its own ass.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 5:25:22 GMT
While my enormous love for The Return is well known around these parts, I do have a few - relatively minor - complaints with it, and I will say Part 12 and Part 14 have my two least favorite scenes (the murder of the warden and literal Monster Sarah).
I would recommend reading into the story uhhh a little more than you've been, as a lot of the ideas I believe Lynch is presenting hit hardest when tied into the narrative (which is definitely unconventional, but far from randomly drawn together, or something - he and Frost spent like four years writing it to make it as perfect as possible).
Also as much as we disagree I really respect you actually giving Twin Peaks such a fair try. Glad you're enjoying parts of it a lot.
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 11, 2020 14:19:45 GMT
I would recommend reading into the story uhhh a little more than you've been, as a lot of the ideas I believe Lynch is presenting hit hardest when tied into the narrative (which is definitely unconventional, but far from randomly drawn together, or something - he and Frost spent like four years writing it to make it as perfect as possible). My problem is that I'm having a hard time reading into it because (a.) I don't care enough, and (b.) there is so damn much going on that I got lost and that makes it harder to get engaged, thus causing a vicious spiral in which it demands more of me when I'm missing what I assume are key elements, and I just get more disinterested. The sprawling nature of the story means that there is A LOT to love. But it also means that I will need several watches to understand it at all, because Frost and Lynch aren't holding my hand enough.. A few times recently, I've honestly wondered if I missed an episode, because people are talking about things I can't recall at all. Either I'm not observant at all (which I admit to when I'm not completely into something: my sister had to explain the entire plot of Captain Marvel to me while it was running because I kept asking "how did this guy get there" or "how did she do that?" or "who the hell is that?"), or the show is keeping secrets. But the less I care, the less incentive I have to put in an effort at digging deep. I'm all for digging deep on some of my favorite stories, but this is leaving me not wanting to bother with the fantasy elements at all.
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 12, 2020 2:43:27 GMT
The Return part 15
I just don't care anymore. There's no "why" to this anymore. Let's just recap events in the episode.
1. Nadine lets Ed go because she is trying to turn her life around (at least at the moment), and he decides to marry Norma because he's had a hard-on for her his whole life. Yay for character development, I guess. It's all downhill from here.
2. Cooper meets the teapot that used to be Philip Jeffries because Jeffries tried to have him killed. He asks questions that are not answered, making me wonder why the plot made him show up. There's kind of a hint that he's the Cooper we know (possibly saying that both Coopers were present inside of original Cooper, but seriously who cares). Anyway, out he goes because of unreliable phone service and Richard is there because... he followed Cooper, I guess? Not sure. Whatever, I'll roll with it. Anyway, Cooper doesn't kill him and decides to "talk" because... he's Audrey's son? I mean, there's a lot of "why" in that "because." Cooper isn't a clear enough character to understand his actions or development. Oh, and Cooper sends the "Las Vegas?" message to Diane that has been sitting on her phone for like five episodes, which means this show has gotten very wibbly-wobbly or plotlines are being put on hold for others to move forward because... I don't know why, if that's the case. I would presume to create fake tension.
3. Stephen exists, but there are so many characters that I've honestly kind of forgotten who he is. He's Becky's husband, right? What's going on with him? Whatever, he's presumably dead now. Carl shows up because he's the best character in the show and I need him right now, goddamnit.
4. Audrey continues to not actually leave her house in her search for Billy because... why? Is her house some sort of purgatory? Who cares? She hasn't left for three or four episodes and at this point, it's obvious that this is only because the writers are forcing her to sit still. They're calling attention to it like that makes them so smart that they're showing us how little they care about her personal agency as a character. She has no agency because the writers say so. She exists at the whim of the writers to do whatever they want her to do later. Speaking of which...
5. James and British guy go to the Roadhouse, and British guy defends James because James is his friend, and so both are jailed. Of course, his God Hand exists because the writers pulled the entire character out of their ass to use him at a later date (they straight up tell us this in his first scene): and almost immediately upon his introduction, he's already been moved into a prison cell where he shall no doubt do something important, likely regarding the girl with no eyes, who is there because she's a plot device who needs to exist for something later to happen, damn it! I don't necessarily mind SuperHand being moved into prison because of a bar fight, but it is a really obvious narrative maneuver. I hope that it's subverted later.
6. Margaret calls Hawk to say that she's dying because the writers want to give her a sendoff, I guess? I don't see how it affects the narrative, but it's fine to let such an iconic character get a goodbye scene.
7. Dougie sticks a fork in a power outlet because he doesn't understand things and he has a fascination with power outlets after the Black Lodge. This is presumably because the writers want to do something with his character in the future, and he has no agency to do anything himself.
8. The Fast Food Couple kill Todd and his crony and eat food and talk about torture because that's just what they do, were you expecting more? Moves the plot along, I guess.
9. There's a girl at the Roadhouse at the end who just... gawd, I don't care anymore.
I've tried to analyze this episode in two ways: how do these scenes move the narrative forward, and how are these scenes impacted by the actions and motivations of the characters? And that latter question is my issue with what this show is doing now. Whatever is happening is because the writers are moving pieces around, not because anyone is organically making decisions.
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Post by notacrook on Mar 12, 2020 12:05:15 GMT
I think Part 16 is one the best (and most narratively satisfying) episodes of television ever made, and I'm interested - and a little apprehensive - to see your thoughts on it.
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 13, 2020 2:31:25 GMT
The Return part 16 (just for you, notacrook!)
I don't have much to say about this tbh. It moves. It doesn't do much in the way of character development or anything I found especially interesting, but it was fast. Stuff happened. To follow the same format I used before:
1. Evil Cooper gets Richard killed because Richard is an idiot and Evil Cooper is not. Also, Jerry is there, but who cares. Jerry's (not) left foot was the most fascinating character on the show, but appears to have been retired. Alas. Oh right, there was also that text. I'll get there.
2. Dougie is gone, Good Cooper is back. Seriously nothing else to report here. There's no... conflict or learning or anything, it's just stuff happening. And that's fine, the show has kept Dougie around for the express purpose of slowing the narrative down. Makes sense to just have Cooper jump in and get it rolling. Also, the Mitchum brothers are here and continue to be one of the best things about the show.
3. The Fast Food Killers get killed in a random gunfight that is entertaining enough, but come on this had no purpose to the greater narrative. Nothing about their characters had purpose to the greater narrative. Not a problem necessarily (the best parts of the show have been its tangents), but they felt like faux-Tarantino characters (doesn't help that they were played by two of the Hateful Eight) instead of actual humans. Always a bit bored by them.
4. Diane. Hoo boy, Diane. What the hell even was her character arc? She's the most mishandled character on the show, she just wanders around with Gordon and feeds info to Evil Cooper through text messages and we're never given any insight into her. What makes her tick? Her little speech at the end does nothing to rectify this. I don't understand anything the writers were attempting with this character, someone who was wrapped in mystery from her very start (even as far back as the first season), and they kept her such an enigma that she doesn't seem to serve any purpose. She didn't even function as a plot device, because she could be removed entirely and not one action of anyone else in the show would change. Whatever. Sick death scene.
5. Audrey goes to the Roadhouse and seriously who gives a crap, it's not like this shit was unexpected.
So all in all, I'm pointing out a lot of negatives... but I still liked this episode okay. It moved. It was fun enough.
Any fans of Serial Experiments Lain here? Just curious. It has a very surreal Lynch type vibe to it, and I think Twin Peaks fans would find it interesting. I liked it a lot more because as surreal as it got, it always had a heart... whereas TP turns off its heart for its surreal nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 7:40:01 GMT
Not sure whether to try to explain the first 16 parts to Martin before he watches the last 2, or just wait and mentally prepare myself to read his thoughts when he's finished
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 7:40:58 GMT
Any fans of Serial Experiments Lain here? Just curious. It's on my watchlist
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 13, 2020 15:32:45 GMT
Not sure whether to try to explain the first 16 parts to Martin before he watches the last 2, or just wait and mentally prepare myself to read his thoughts when he's finished Oh, I'm quite certain that I'll be lost no matter what. I still like the show, but this brand of fantasy is definitely not for me. I'm not seeing any internal conflict to the main characters. It's there somewhat with tangential characters like Becky or Janey-E (don't think I missed that bit about Janey-E being Diane's cousin btw, I'm prepared for some kind of "twist" with her), but: (FBI) Evil Cooper is an enigma Gordon & company are a lot of fun, but ultimately exist to follow the writers' breadcrumbs Diane is an enigma Philip Jefferies is a little teapot, short and stout (TP Sheriff's department) Hawk has this nice relationship with the Log Lady, but that has no effect on his job or "plot" actions Sheriff Truman has that relationship with his wife, but that has no effect on his job or "plot" actions Bobby has the whole "Daddy" thing going on and I like the little bits with his ex-wife and daughter, but that has no effect on his job or "plot" actions Andy is comic relief (Las Vegas) Dougie exists to slow the plot down and has no character to speak of Janey-E has some fascinating stuff where she learns to "love" Dougie once he brings in boatloads of cash, and her badass house management with Dougie's loan sharks is a blast to see... but it doesn't affect the plot The entire insurance company and gangster storylines are tangential (although really good) and really just pad out the runtime The Todd stuff will probably get more answers, but so far it's just been him screwing up repeatedly until finally getting killed (Other) Carl is the greatestThe Shelly/Becky stuff is the greatest, and the conflict between the hearts and heads of the Briggs family is beautiful. The Dr. Jacoby stuff is really fun The Ben Horne stuff is the greatest Richard has some interesting stuff, but his story fizzles out The James stuff seems pretty pointless, but it's cool to see James and the Tekken reject. The Audrey stuff is straining so hard to be "relevant" to the plot that it just winds up being annoying. I get it, things are weird in Twin Peaks, maybe it's been sucked into a vortex or maybe everyone have been replaced by aliens or maybe a thousand things (neither of those explanations are right, they make no sense) and I don't care because whatever stuff is happening is just plot and I honestly don't see how any of the characters' actions will have affected the plot in any way. It's okay to have the plot driving the characters' actions, I just find the characters infinitely more interesting than the plot. I'm sure that the vomiting people and the eyeless girl and the Roadhouse shenanigans and the mysterious coordinates and Diane's lack of agency are all going to be "important," but I'd rather that we see actual internal conflict with Diane so that we understand whatever weird stuff is happening to her through her whole arc, instead of just having her info dump in a scene that still manages to make little sense (and promptly kill her). I'd rather that Evil Cooper be given an arc that can be understood as it happens, instead of in retrospect (which is what I fear the show is going to do). I'd rather that Bobby questions his relationship with his father (and through that question his relationship with his daughter). I'd rather have the characters drive their actions in some way.
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Post by Martin Stett on Mar 14, 2020 1:15:01 GMT
The Return finale I honestly laughed at the end. A sad, disappointed little chortle. Laughing that I spent three full seasons and a movie on this. I don't have the energy to care. Maybe someone else can link all of this together into some grand statement about the human condition, but all I see is a poorly written fantasy narrative that doesn't examine any of its core characters. It grants dignity to its side characters by allowing them moments to shine, but I'd hardly call them developed. It hints at how great they would be if given more focus. But for its core characters, there's nothing. They're cogs in a machine.
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