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Post by Pavan on Jun 10, 2019 19:26:32 GMT
Just finished The Bells. There's nothing wrong with the logic of Dany's arc up to this point. Fight me. The signs have always been there. She was always going to be the Mad Queen, her stans just ignored the signs. Foreshadowing is not character development. She just goes from 20 to 100 in a couple of episodes. Heck she was not 'mad queen' until the bells rang. People are okay with her being mad queen but it was forced rather than earned. That's what irked everyone.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jun 11, 2019 0:42:45 GMT
Just finished The Bells. There's nothing wrong with the logic of Dany's arc up to this point. Fight me. The signs have always been there. She was always going to be the Mad Queen, her stans just ignored the signs. Foreshadowing is not character development. She just goes from 20 to 100 in a couple of episodes. Heck she was not 'mad queen' until the bells rang. People are okay with her being mad queen but it was forced rather than earned. That's what irked everyone. The escalation is there but we're not just talking about foreshadowing. She's killed innocents before and been ruthless to her enemies ever since S1 when she had the witch burned alive (and had no reaction to her brother being gruesomely killed, which D&D correctly pointed out). In all of those instances that violence was under the guise of vengeance or social justice but it gets out of hand by the time she gets to Meereen, when she crucifies the masters and then has a noble killed by her dragon after the Sons of the Harpy ambush in S5. The key thing to remember is that both times it was a deeply emotional reaction and in both instances the viewer is led to be conflicted about it, because the show's shades of gray morality isn't in line with Dany's black-and-white sense of right and wrong. And her actions in the name of bringing justice to evildoers brings unforeseen collateral damage every single time. She's been the mad queen the whole time. We just never saw the full incarnation of it until "The Bells," which finds her alone and unchecked by council. And why should she care about the people of King's Landing? The reason we care about them is because D&D forces us to confront their annihilation on the streets. We see the effects of her violence up close and through the eyes of characters we've come to love and empathize with (Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, etc.). Never, I repeat NEVER has this happened before in the history of the show. We never have to get to know the people Dany murders or burns alive. We didn't have to get to know any of the masters she crucified in Meereen. We didn't even have to get to know the Tarlys she executes in S7 except to the extent that we knew the dad was a total dick. Not until "The Bells" have we had to experience the effects of her violence firsthand like that, and not even she has to experience it because she's high above the screaming throngs on a dragon. She isn't doing any of this killing face to face. She isn't witnessing the rape and mayhem close up. I think that bit of distance is something that makes her actions even more understandable.In any case, it's a brilliant move on D&D's part (and presumably GRRM because I'm sure the books will end similarly if he ever finishes them) to subvert the pure white savior trope that's been following Dany around since the beginning. A fitting conclusion to all the red flags they were clearly trying to show us through Season 4 to Season 7 that Dany cares about one thing and one thing only: defeating her enemies. Again, I think it's clear that a lot of people weren't picking up on those red flags. Dany could do no wrong in many viewers' eyes, despite already having done more than her fair share by the time she even sets foot in King's Landing. As for the escalation in S8, that's a problem more with the season's truncated storytelling and less with the logic of her arc, especially because the absurd romance with Jon really gets in the way and dampens its ultimate effectiveness. Does it happen too fast in the final season? Yes. Have they been building up to that moment the whole show? Yes, absolutely. The pieces have always been in place for this eventuality. For godsakes, we see it all the way back in S2 with her vision in the House of the Undying, and in Bran's visions with the single dragon shadow over King's Landing. It was only shocking in the moment because of how D&D mishandled the writing in the last few seasons (I mean, really all the way back to S5), but the writing has always been on the wall.
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Post by Pavan on Jun 11, 2019 6:02:43 GMT
Foreshadowing is not character development. She just goes from 20 to 100 in a couple of episodes. Heck she was not 'mad queen' until the bells rang. People are okay with her being mad queen but it was forced rather than earned. That's what irked everyone. The escalation is there but we're not just talking about foreshadowing. She's killed innocents before and been ruthless to her enemies ever since S1 when she had the witch burned alive (and had no reaction to her brother being gruesomely killed, which D&D correctly pointed out). In all of those instances that violence was under the guise of vengeance or social justice but it gets out of hand by the time she gets to Meereen, when she crucifies the masters and then has a noble killed by her dragon after the Sons of the Harpy ambush in S5. The key thing to remember is that both times it was a deeply emotional reaction and in both instances the viewer is led to be conflicted about it, because the show's shades of gray morality isn't in line with Dany's black-and-white sense of right and wrong. And her actions in the name of bringing justice to evildoers brings unforeseen collateral damage every single time. She's been the mad queen the whole time. We just never saw the full incarnation of it until "The Bells," which finds her alone and unchecked by council. And why should she care about the people of King's Landing? The reason we care about them is because D&D forces us to confront their annihilation on the streets. We see the effects of her violence up close and through the eyes of characters we've come to love and empathize with (Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, etc.). Never, I repeat NEVER has this happened before in the history of the show. We never have to get to know the people Dany murders or burns alive. We didn't have to get to know any of the masters she crucified in Meereen. We didn't even have to get to know the Tarlys she executes in S7 except to the extent that we knew the dad was a total dick. Not until "The Bells" have we had to experience the effects of her violence firsthand like that, and not even she has to experience it because she's high above the screaming throngs on a dragon. She isn't doing any of this killing face to face. She isn't witnessing the rape and mayhem close up. I think that bit of distance is something that makes her actions even more understandable.In any case, it's a brilliant move on D&D's part (and presumably GRRM because I'm sure the books will end similarly if he ever finishes them) to subvert the pure white savior trope that's been following Dany around since the beginning. A fitting conclusion to all the red flags they were clearly trying to show us through Season 4 to Season 7 that Dany cares about one thing and one thing only: defeating her enemies. Again, I think it's clear that a lot of people weren't picking up on those red flags. Dany could do no wrong in many viewers' eyes, despite already having done more than her fair share by the time she even sets foot in King's Landing. As for the escalation in S8, that's a problem more with the season's truncated storytelling and less with the logic of her arc, especially because the absurd romance with Jon really gets in the way and dampens its ultimate effectiveness. Does it happen too fast in the final season? Yes. Have they been building up to that moment the whole show? Yes, absolutely. The pieces have always been in place for this eventuality. For godsakes, we see it all the way back in S2 with her vision in the House of the Undying, and in Bran's visions with the single dragon shadow over King's Landing. It was only shocking in the moment because of how D&D mishandled the writing in the last few seasons (I mean, really all the way back to S5), but the writing has always been on the wall. Whatever man, she just goes from saving the world (in ep 3) to ending it (in ep 5). That's not how you do it even if the character has showed such signs. What's stopped them from doing more episodes? D&D are to be blamed. They should've dealt with Nightking in this season and finished it with Cersei's death and save Dany's descent into madness for another season. That would've been so much better. It's like they got the broad strokes from Martin and took the ending as a starting point reverse engineered the season's story.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jun 11, 2019 18:22:11 GMT
Whatever man, she just goes from saving the world (in ep 3) to ending it (in ep 5). That's not how you do it even if the character has showed such signs. What's stopped them from doing more episodes? D&D are to be blamed. They should've dealt with Nightking in this season and finished it with Cersei's death and save Dany's descent into madness for another season. That would've been so much better. No one's going to argue with you that they needed more time. I have no idea why S7 and S8 had to be shorter than the rest. It's like D&D were rushing to get the story finished so they could move on to the next project. But really time management has been an issue ever since S5 which spends way too much time on Jorah and drunk Tyrion's adventures and not nearly enough time on the Sparrows or Harpys, and ends horribly rushed with a series of cliffhangers that are neatly wrapped up in the S6 premiere. That being said, I think S8 was a marked improvement on S7 and maybe even S6, and I love the conclusion to Dany's arc even if it was a bit mishandled and rushed ("The Bells" is honestly the most satisfying episode since "Battle of the Bastards"). Like I said the pieces are all there and D&D covered their tracks. The logic of it makes total sense to me. They just needed to give it more time to percolate.
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Post by joephoenix on Jun 12, 2019 22:50:44 GMT
Foreshadowing is not character development. She just goes from 20 to 100 in a couple of episodes. Heck she was not 'mad queen' until the bells rang. People are okay with her being mad queen but it was forced rather than earned. That's what irked everyone. The escalation is there but we're not just talking about foreshadowing. She's killed innocents before and been ruthless to her enemies ever since S1 when she had the witch burned alive (and had no reaction to her brother being gruesomely killed, which D&D correctly pointed out). In all of those instances that violence was under the guise of vengeance or social justice but it gets out of hand by the time she gets to Meereen, when she crucifies the masters and then has a noble killed by her dragon after the Sons of the Harpy ambush in S5. The key thing to remember is that both times it was a deeply emotional reaction and in both instances the viewer is led to be conflicted about it, because the show's shades of gray morality isn't in line with Dany's black-and-white sense of right and wrong. And her actions in the name of bringing justice to evildoers brings unforeseen collateral damage every single time. She's been the mad queen the whole time. We just never saw the full incarnation of it until "The Bells," which finds her alone and unchecked by council. And why should she care about the people of King's Landing? The reason we care about them is because D&D forces us to confront their annihilation on the streets. We see the effects of her violence up close and through the eyes of characters we've come to love and empathize with (Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, etc.). Never, I repeat NEVER has this happened before in the history of the show. We never have to get to know the people Dany murders or burns alive. We didn't have to get to know any of the masters she crucified in Meereen. We didn't even have to get to know the Tarlys she executes in S7 except to the extent that we knew the dad was a total dick. Not until "The Bells" have we had to experience the effects of her violence firsthand like that, and not even she has to experience it because she's high above the screaming throngs on a dragon. She isn't doing any of this killing face to face. She isn't witnessing the rape and mayhem close up. I think that bit of distance is something that makes her actions even more understandable.In any case, it's a brilliant move on D&D's part (and presumably GRRM because I'm sure the books will end similarly if he ever finishes them) to subvert the pure white savior trope that's been following Dany around since the beginning. A fitting conclusion to all the red flags they were clearly trying to show us through Season 4 to Season 7 that Dany cares about one thing and one thing only: defeating her enemies. Again, I think it's clear that a lot of people weren't picking up on those red flags. Dany could do no wrong in many viewers' eyes, despite already having done more than her fair share by the time she even sets foot in King's Landing. As for the escalation in S8, that's a problem more with the season's truncated storytelling and less with the logic of her arc, especially because the absurd romance with Jon really gets in the way and dampens its ultimate effectiveness. Does it happen too fast in the final season? Yes. Have they been building up to that moment the whole show? Yes, absolutely. The pieces have always been in place for this eventuality. For godsakes, we see it all the way back in S2 with her vision in the House of the Undying, and in Bran's visions with the single dragon shadow over King's Landing. It was only shocking in the moment because of how D&D mishandled the writing in the last few seasons (I mean, really all the way back to S5), but the writing has always been on the wall. The witch wasn't really an innocent. Drogo died because of her. Her brother was abusive to her for her whole life, I don't see that as justification for her being evil this whole time. The masters certainly weren't innocent. The Tarlys lost in battle and were executed for not bending the knee. It was brutal but not much worse than Jon executing Janos Slynt or other things done by characters. Arya slaughtering the Freys and feeding them to Walder is worse than anything Daenerys did pre season 8 imo.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jun 12, 2019 23:44:18 GMT
The witch wasn't really an innocent. Drogo died because of her. Her brother was abusive to her for her whole life, I don't see that as justification for her being evil this whole time. The masters certainly weren't innocent. The Tarlys lost in battle and were executed for not bending the knee. It was brutal but not much worse than Jon executing Janos Slynt or other things done by characters. Arya slaughtering the Freys and feeding them to Walder is worse than anything Daenerys did pre season 8 imo. I didn't say the witch was an innocent. I said Dany was ruthless. She did kill innocents in Meereen though. And no one's calling her "evil" or that what she did in King's Landing was evil. Ruthless and emotional, not evil (which is much too black and white a term). It's simply an escalation of what we've already seen her do. Her violence in Meereen was indiscriminately targeted toward a particular class. When she had that one nobleman executed in front of the others in S5 it didn't matter if he himself was guilty of conspiring against her, only that he was a noble. Same thing when she had the masters crucified. You can explain things like that away, but I think that's the point D&D are making, because if you go far enough down that train of thought, you can also justify her massacre of King's Landing. That's why "The Bells" is a brilliant episode, because it forces the viewer to confront that.
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Post by joephoenix on Jun 13, 2019 0:22:33 GMT
The witch wasn't really an innocent. Drogo died because of her. Her brother was abusive to her for her whole life, I don't see that as justification for her being evil this whole time. The masters certainly weren't innocent. The Tarlys lost in battle and were executed for not bending the knee. It was brutal but not much worse than Jon executing Janos Slynt or other things done by characters. Arya slaughtering the Freys and feeding them to Walder is worse than anything Daenerys did pre season 8 imo. I didn't say the witch was an innocent. I said Dany was ruthless. She did kill innocents in Meereen though. And no one's calling her "evil" or that what she did in King's Landing was evil. Ruthless and emotional, not evil (which is much too black and white a term). It's simply an escalation of what we've already seen her do. Her violence in Meereen was indiscriminately targeted toward a particular class. When she had that one nobleman executed in front of the others in S5 it didn't matter if he himself was guilty of conspiring against her, only that he was a noble. Same thing when she had the masters crucified. You can explain things like that away, but I think that's the point D&D are making, because if you go far enough down that train of thought, you can also justify her massacre of King's Landing. That's why "The Bells" is a brilliant episode, because it forces the viewer to confront that. What she did in King's Landing wasn't evil? She slaughtered thousands of innocent people when she did not need to. How is that not evil? Nothing she's done in previous seasons comes close to that.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jun 13, 2019 0:39:56 GMT
What she did in King's Landing wasn't evil? She slaughtered thousands of innocent people when she did not need to. The only reason her actions in King's Landing are depicted as evil is because (I've already said this) D&D shove our faces in it and make us experience it through characters like Tyrion and Jon and Arya, which are supposed to be conduits for the audience. We experience her wrath firsthand through these characters like never before. I repeat, if we had been made to get to know and spend several seasons with any of the masters of Meereen that Dany crucified (like Hizdahr zo Loraq's dad, the one who spoke against cruelty to slaves), we would have seen that action as evil too, or at the very least unfair and unnecessary. But regardless, painting these actions in shades of black and white is bullshit and the same trap that Dany fell into herself. It was only after she crucified the masters that she was forced to confront the collateral damage of that action, and she experienced guilt for executing that noble in S5 for no reason. We see innocent women and children getting butchered in "The Bells" but King's Landing is full of awful people, and you know plenty of them were killed too. That's not a justification (I've always had reservations about Dany, particularly because her adoring audience flat-out ignored all her morally dubious behavior in seasons 4 and 5), only a rebuttal against those who watched S4 and justified her crucifixion of the masters. This is more or less the same deal, just on a bigger scale. And there are plenty of mitigating circumstances, not the least of which being she's lost all her advisers except the one she trusted the least. I mean yeah, obviously what she did was wrong, but it's also reasonable from her perspective, or at least something she'd do and has done before to lesser extents, and in a show that consistently paints the world in shades of gray, you can hardly call her massacre "evil." And it's like not hers would be the first war to destroy cities. For a real world example, the U.S. did it twice in WWII without any outcry. What Dany did in "The Bells" isn't much different than dropping an atomic bomb. She's always been a better conqueror than a leader.
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Post by joephoenix on Jun 13, 2019 1:11:23 GMT
What she did in King's Landing wasn't evil? She slaughtered thousands of innocent people when she did not need to. The only reason her actions in King's Landing are depicted as evil is because (I've already said this) D&D shove our faces in it and make us experience it through characters like Tyrion and Jon and Arya, which are supposed to be conduits for the audience. We experience her wrath firsthand through these characters like never before. I repeat, if we had been made to get to know and spend several seasons with any of the masters of Meereen that Dany crucified (like Hizdahr zo Loraq's dad, the one who spoke against cruelty to slaves), we would have seen that action as evil too, or at the very least unfair and unnecessary. But regardless, painting these actions in shades of black and white is bullshit and the same trap that Dany fell into herself. It was only after she crucified the masters that she was forced to confront the collateral damage of that action, and she experienced guilt for executing that noble in S5 for no reason. We see innocent women and children getting butchered in "The Bells" but King's Landing is full of awful people, and you know plenty of them were killed too. That's not a justification (I've always had reservations about Dany, particularly because her adoring audience flat-out ignored all her morally dubious behavior in seasons 4 and 5), only a rebuttal against those who watched S4 and justified her crucifixion of the masters. This is more or less the same deal, just on a bigger scale. And there are plenty of mitigating circumstances, not the least of which being she's lost all her advisers except the one she trusted the least. I mean yeah, obviously what she did was wrong, but it's also reasonable from her perspective, or at least something she'd do and has done before to lesser extents, and in a show that consistently paints the world in shades of gray, you can hardly call her massacre "evil." And it's like not hers would be the first war to destroy cities. For a real world example, the U.S. did it twice in WWII without any outcry. What Dany did in "The Bells" isn't much different than dropping an atomic bomb. She's always been a better conqueror than a leader. I don't really care about characters like Jon or Arya. We saw innocent women and children that got butchered. Nothing about what she did was reasonable. It's possibly the most evil act of the entire show in my view.
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Jun 13, 2019 7:43:23 GMT
The only reason her actions in King's Landing are depicted as evil is because (I've already said this) D&D shove our faces in it and make us experience it through characters like Tyrion and Jon and Arya, which are supposed to be conduits for the audience. We experience her wrath firsthand through these characters like never before. I repeat, if we had been made to get to know and spend several seasons with any of the masters of Meereen that Dany crucified (like Hizdahr zo Loraq's dad, the one who spoke against cruelty to slaves), we would have seen that action as evil too, or at the very least unfair and unnecessary. But regardless, painting these actions in shades of black and white is bullshit and the same trap that Dany fell into herself. It was only after she crucified the masters that she was forced to confront the collateral damage of that action, and she experienced guilt for executing that noble in S5 for no reason. We see innocent women and children getting butchered in "The Bells" but King's Landing is full of awful people, and you know plenty of them were killed too. That's not a justification (I've always had reservations about Dany, particularly because her adoring audience flat-out ignored all her morally dubious behavior in seasons 4 and 5), only a rebuttal against those who watched S4 and justified her crucifixion of the masters. This is more or less the same deal, just on a bigger scale. And there are plenty of mitigating circumstances, not the least of which being she's lost all her advisers except the one she trusted the least. I mean yeah, obviously what she did was wrong, but it's also reasonable from her perspective, or at least something she'd do and has done before to lesser extents, and in a show that consistently paints the world in shades of gray, you can hardly call her massacre "evil." And it's like not hers would be the first war to destroy cities. For a real world example, the U.S. did it twice in WWII without any outcry. What Dany did in "The Bells" isn't much different than dropping an atomic bomb. She's always been a better conqueror than a leader. I don't really care about characters like Jon or Arya. We saw innocent women and children that got butchered. Nothing about what she did was reasonable. It's possibly the most evil act of the entire show in my view. ...and men
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Archie
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Post by Archie on Jul 16, 2019 16:15:21 GMT
Alfie Allen finally gets an Emmy nomination... I'm fucking crying
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Post by stephen on Jul 16, 2019 16:18:23 GMT
Emmy Award nominee Alfie Allen.
Emmy Award nominee Gwendoline Christie.
Emmy Award nominee Carice van Houten.
Still, they stiffed Liam Cunningham hard.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Jul 16, 2019 16:32:25 GMT
I'm honestly at a fucking loss right now.
...
...
This is the most emmy nominated season?! Why? Because they... nevermind. That's probably why.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Jul 16, 2019 16:48:14 GMT
In no fucking multi-verse does Game of Thrones season 8 deserve 9 acting nominations. NOT EVEN IN THE WEIRD ONE WHERE SPIDERMAN IS A ROBOT PACIFIC RIM THINGY!
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jul 16, 2019 16:51:06 GMT
last chance for the emmys to get in all those consolation noms, and boy they took it
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Post by stephen on Jul 16, 2019 16:53:37 GMT
Your daily reminder that Rhea Seehorn was snubbed because they wanted to nominate Lena Headey staring out a window with a glass of wine.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Jul 16, 2019 17:04:21 GMT
Your daily reminder that Rhea Seehorn was snubbed because they wanted to nominate Lena Headey staring out a window with a glass of wine. As I said, not a good day at all!
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Archie
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Post by Archie on Jul 16, 2019 17:56:49 GMT
Emmy Award nominee Alfie Allen. Emmy Award nominee Gwendoline Christie. Emmy Award nominee Carice van Houten. Still, they stiffed Liam Cunningham hard. I wish Rory McCann had snuck in there somehow. I thought he was very good this season.
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Post by DeepArcher on Jul 16, 2019 18:05:27 GMT
Emmy Award nominee Alfie Allen. Emmy Award nominee Gwendoline Christie. Emmy Award nominee Carice van Houten. Still, they stiffed Liam Cunningham hard. I wish Rory McCann had snuck in there somehow. I thought he was very good this season. Well considering how behind the Emmys are with nominating the GOT cast, I expect he'll get his nod in about two years. Dillane in three.
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Post by Pavan on Aug 28, 2019 8:14:48 GMT
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Aug 28, 2019 9:44:29 GMT
Man, everytime this thread rears its head again, the crushing disappointment of how it all turned out hits like a sledgehammer. Less storm of swords and more storm of shit.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Aug 28, 2019 15:31:29 GMT
I HAD JUST PUT THIS SHIT BEHIND ME!
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Archie
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Post by Archie on Aug 28, 2019 15:46:07 GMT
Tried to rewatch.
Couldn't get more than 30 minutes into 803 without smashing my screen.
Stopped my rewatch.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on Oct 26, 2019 2:57:41 GMT
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Nikan
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Post by Nikan on Nov 3, 2019 17:23:05 GMT
The talk of this series is still in our house. these characters, each with their own views on politics, life etc. used to have such a place in hearts and memory it's impossible not to mention them everyone in a while and subsequently to think about that distasteful ending.
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