urbanpatrician
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"I just wanna go back, back to 1999. back to hit me baby one more time" - Charli XCX
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Post by urbanpatrician on Feb 14, 2023 20:10:23 GMT
Who of these 2 commonly considered best of their game after 2003 is greater?
Messi for me. Lebron has to wait for a weak year (a weak opposing opponent) to win a championship. Every time he plays a strong team he loses. Except the 2013 Spurs (barely won. Spurs missed a clinching free throw) and 2016 Warriors (his lone shining moment of an otherwise bloodbath all time against the Warriors).
Messi in Qatar 2022 cemented his status as a Top 5 all time player. That was a heroic month. I wasnt a huge fan of him before that, but I am now.
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Post by pacinoyes on Feb 14, 2023 20:17:44 GMT
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Feb 14, 2023 20:54:56 GMT
LeBron by virtue of the nature of the sport. There's more opportunity for a dominant player to control a basketball game than a soccer game.
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Post by DaleCooper on Mar 5, 2023 19:33:30 GMT
Messi.
Messi was comfortably in the top 5 before the World Cup, but should now be considered the greatest of all time. He certainly is, by far, the best player to ever play the game of football.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Mar 5, 2023 22:58:27 GMT
Messi. Messi was comfortably in the top 5 before the World Cup, but should now be considered the greatest of all time. He certainly is, by far, the best player to ever play the game of football. Well, I saw Pelè playing. You apparently didn't. |
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Post by countjohn on Mar 6, 2023 5:20:29 GMT
Not a soccer expert but Messi seems to be universally considered top 2 along with Pele with a significant percentage of people viewing him as better. Most everybody outside of a few stans views Jordan as GOAT and there are a number of other people you could argue ahead of him as well (Magic, Kareem, Wilt).
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Mar 6, 2023 5:41:51 GMT
Not a soccer expert but Messi seems to be universally considered top 2 along with Pele with a significant percentage of people viewing him as better. Most everybody outside of a few stans views Jordan as GOAT and there are a number of other people you could argue ahead of him as well (Magic, Kareem, Wilt). I imagine there are a few reasons for that discrepancy. Pelé retired all the way back in 1977 so he's far away enough in cultural memory and with enough limitations in his footage for people to view Messi as better. Plus, if you're saying Magic, Kareem, or Wilt have NBA GOAT arguments then I'd say it's not consensus for Messi to be top 2 (Maradona, Ronaldo). Jordan and LeBron were a season away from overlapping in careers so the shadow of Jordan is still pretty fresh with plenty of widely available footage (and commercials). Not to mention the discussion over them talking place in a more centralized and intense American media environment. This is all to say it's not really an equal comparison. One scenario is as if Joe Montana had been playing and retired just before Tom Brady took his first snap and the other is Tom Brady instead being compared to Johnny Unitas. |
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Mar 6, 2023 7:56:27 GMT
Not a soccer expert but Messi seems to be universally considered top 2 along with Pele with a significant percentage of people viewing him as better. Most everybody outside of a few stans views Jordan as GOAT and there are a number of other people you could argue ahead of him as well (Magic, Kareem, Wilt). No it's Pele, Ronaldo (Brazilian), Messi, and Maradona. Those are the Holy Quartet, at least from my vantage point. In basketball, I think the quartet should be Wilt, Kareem, Michael, and Magic. Bird, Russell, and Olajuwon can make it into the conversation. |
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Post by DaleCooper on Mar 6, 2023 8:11:15 GMT
Messi. Messi was comfortably in the top 5 before the World Cup, but should now be considered the greatest of all time. He certainly is, by far, the best player to ever play the game of football. Well, I saw Pelè playing. You apparently didn't. I'm not sure that matters though. Péle could be argued to be the greatest, sure, but the best? Not a chance.
It also seems to me that Maradona is generally held a bit higher than Péle. It's definetely Maradon, Péle and Messi that is the top 3. Beyond them it should be Cruyff and then Cristiano.
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Post by pacinoyes on Mar 6, 2023 9:35:00 GMT
The Franz Beckenbauer disrespect is pretty intense on MAR - dude was The Kaiser Roll or something and would have been played in a movie like he was Olivier in Marathon Man scary ffs- it's like in hockey where people go Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe and then I say Bobby Orr is actually #2 ......maybe #1 even and people say "Shut up old man, he played defense ew......!" ..........and then they threaten to take my wine away   |
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ibbi
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Post by ibbi on Mar 6, 2023 11:03:24 GMT
They both benefit from playing in ages in which the art of defending has been hamstrung some, but Lebron at least competes in a sport in which he is majorly tasked with actually having to defend too.
Basketball is about the only team sport (that I watch anyway) where trying to flat-out crown someone as the greatest of all time is not a laughable proposition for that very reason.
All that said, I think Messi is a magician in his sport on a level beyond Lebron. He might have needed HGH to be able to get there, but he's that rare athlete where when you watch him play(ing well) he transforms his sport into a fucking party.
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Post by hugobolso on Mar 6, 2023 14:50:10 GMT
That's even a Question. Luisito Suárez best friend all the way.-
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Mar 6, 2023 19:37:09 GMT
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Mar 14, 2023 3:21:08 GMT
I can understand if you think Lebron is Top 5, but I can't fathom how anyone can say he's better than Jordan.
Jordan has him beat in championships (6 vs 4). Has him beat statistically (30.1 vs 27.2). The only thing Lebron has over him is that scoring title, which is more about how long he's played than anything.
I'll submit that Lebron is a better outside shooter, but Jordan is so good at the midrange and he's the best orchestral athlete (flying thru the air) that he doesn't need to get his points from outside shots. Defensively it's not even close... Jordan destroys Lebron in defense. A defensive player of the year vs a guy who doesn't even face any defenses in the era he plays in.
Beats Lebron in steals per game. Lebron has him beat in assists. great... one little victory! Michael's era is way harder to win than Lebron's. His era actually played defense and there were more hall of famers in the 80s and 90s than the 00s or 10s. There's no excuse for getting pelted by the Warriors and Spurs continously. Lebron is part of super teams with 4 all stars in both Miami and Cleveland and LA. He has just as much pieces and help as the teams he constantly gets destroyed by.
Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, Gary Payton, Anfernee Hardaway, and John Stockton were all good enough to win a championship. None of them ever did because Jordan always prevails in the end. Even O'Neal and Olajuwon didn't win one except when Jordan retired.
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