|
|
Post by futuretrunks on Dec 21, 2022 22:40:35 GMT
Joaquin Phoenix, I'm referring to. I think it's become conspicuous that aside from Ridley Scott and Woody Allen (and possibly PTA), he's pretty much not worked with any generationally prestigious directors for more than 20 years. Given how trendy it is on the internet to name him as the best working actor of the generation under DDL/Denzel/Oldman/etc., why do you think this is? Do people like Spielberg, Scorsese, Tarantino, Fincher, Mendes, Nolan, Mann, Coens, etc. not like Joaquin's movies or performances? Does he turn down alot of stuff? It can't be an issue of star-power, as someone like Adam Driver appears to work with many top directors despite lacking star-power, range, and charisma.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Dec 21, 2022 22:46:18 GMT
I think he probably turns down a lot of projects.
|
|
|
|
Post by stephen on Dec 21, 2022 22:56:28 GMT
I think he's just very selective, whereas Adam Driver couldn't afford to be choosy as he had a much later start than Phoenix did.
|
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Dec 21, 2022 23:00:54 GMT
Joaquin Phoenix, I'm referring to. I think it's become conspicuous that aside from Ridley Scott and Woody Allen (and possibly PTA), he's pretty much not worked with any generationally prestigious directors for more than 20 years. Given how trendy it is on the internet to name him as the best working actor of the generation under DDL/Denzel/Oldman/etc., why do you think this is? Do people like Spielberg, Scorsese, Tarantino, Fincher, Mendes, Nolan, Mann, Coens, etc. not like Joaquin's movies or performances? Does he turn down alot of stuff? It can't be an issue of star-power, as someone like Adam Driver appears to work with many top directors despite lacking star-power, range, and charisma. almost never works with major bankable studio directors who require big budgets, without all-star ensemble casts (his Ridley Scott films, Star Wars , Silence, Lincoln, J Edgar etc) . Driver is not a leading man that auteurs who require big budgets go after to to carry films. He doesn't have enough Star Power and would lose studios money. So he works primarily in arthouse stuff and his mainstream stuff is ensemble based for the most part. So yes, it is about starpower and bankability for Phoenix. He is a great actor, but he's never been a huge star (Joker has given him some juice, but I doubt he's still much of a draw outside of that role), so directors who need huge budgets won't neccesarily chase him to lead a film the same way they would a Brad Pitt or DiCaprio. But he absolutely has as much respect within the industry as them, if not more. He's been the lead in 2 films for Paul Thomas Anderson, who may be the most respected auteur of his generation (But who also works at a lower budget level, so can cast Phoenix without being told by studios to get a bigger star). Phoenix has also been around much longer than Driver and can afford to be selective and turn down auteurs if he doesn't like a script or part. Driver doesn't seem to say no to any auteur. |
|
|
|
Post by pacinoyes on Dec 21, 2022 23:04:24 GMT
It's a combination of things: 1. He is not only great at playing "odd" - he seeks out odd. I'm sure he turns A LOT down 2. He's not a huge BO draw pre-Joker obviously 3. Also - the dude was MAR's #1 ranked actor for anyone outside the usual GOATs in our GOAT poll - behind only the usual suspects DePac, Brando, DDL, Hackman, Dustin Hoffman - etc. - he finished 12th - ahead of a whole other generation Oldman, Washington, Hanks, Cage...........and DiCap and to a slightly lesser extent Bale his only real rivals in his.........it is not a stretch at all to call him the most gifted American film talent since the 70s along with PSH - it is not a stretch at all to call him the film actor of 00s AND the 10s .........he's 48  4. Because of #3 - he's now in a position to stretch and he's already stretched - he was great and normal  in C'Mon, C'Mon - his upcoming roles on paper suggest a wild range and not weirdo Phoenix at all........ huge stretch coming up for him |
|
|
|
Post by futuretrunks on Dec 21, 2022 23:20:12 GMT
Joaquin Phoenix, I'm referring to. I think it's become conspicuous that aside from Ridley Scott and Woody Allen (and possibly PTA), he's pretty much not worked with any generationally prestigious directors for more than 20 years. Given how trendy it is on the internet to name him as the best working actor of the generation under DDL/Denzel/Oldman/etc., why do you think this is? Do people like Spielberg, Scorsese, Tarantino, Fincher, Mendes, Nolan, Mann, Coens, etc. not like Joaquin's movies or performances? Does he turn down alot of stuff? It can't be an issue of star-power, as someone like Adam Driver appears to work with many top directors despite lacking star-power, range, and charisma. almost never works with major bankable studio directors who require big budgets, without all-star ensemble casts (his Ridley Scott films, Star Wars , Silence, Lincoln, J Edgar etc) . Driver is not a leading man that auteurs who require big budgets go after to to carry films. He doesn't have enough Star Power and would lose studios money. So he works primarily in arthouse stuff and his mainstream stuff is ensemble based for the most part. So yes, it is about starpower and bankability for Phoenix. He is a great actor, but he's never been a huge star (Joker has given him some juice, but I doubt he's still much ofba draw outside of that role), so directors who need huge budgets won't neccesarily chase him to lead a film the same way they would a Brad Pitt or DiCaprio. But he absolutely has as much respect within the industry as them, if not more. He's been the lead in 2 films for Paul Thomas Anderson, who may be the most respected auteur of his generation (But who also works at a lower budget level, so can cast Phoenix without being told by studios to get a bigger star). Phoenix has also been around much longer than Driver and can afford to be selective and turn down auteurs if he doesn't like a script or part. Driver doesn't seem to say no to any auteur. Nolan just cast Cillian Murphy as his lead, and John David Washington before that. No studio would tell him he couldn't cast Joaquin in a movie if he wanted him. I'm sure Wock has commensurate respect to anyone among actors, but I'm not convinced he does with storytellers. |
|
|
|
Post by futuretrunks on Dec 21, 2022 23:27:09 GMT
It's a combination of things: 1. He is not only great at playing "odd" - he seeks out odd. I'm sure he turns A LOT down 2. He's not a huge BO draw pre-Joker obviously 3. Also - the dude was MAR's #1 ranked actor for anyone outside the usual GOATs in our GOAT poll - behind only the usual suspects DePac, Brando, DDL, Hackman, Dustin Hoffman - etc. - he finished 12th - ahead of a whole other generation Oldman, Washington, Hanks, Cage...........and DiCap and to a slightly lesser extent Bale his only real rivals in his.........it is not a stretch at all to call him the most gifted American film talent since the 70s along with PSH - it is not a stretch at all to call him the film actor of 00s AND the 10s .........he's 48 4. Because of #3 - he's now in a position to stretch and he's already stretched - he was great and normal in C'Mon, C'Mon - his upcoming roles on paper suggest a wild range and not weirdo Phoenix at all........ huge stretch coming up for him I used to regard him as a hallowed talent, but something about his approach to acting post-Two Lovers has become less detailed, like sloppy garage rock (the masterful processing scene aside). I think a great director with a great script could bring out what I used to see in him, but I get the sense that they're not that interested in him. I hope Napoleon is good, but Ridley's been pretty bad for years besides The Martian, which is just modestly good to me, not great like Gladiator, Thelma & Louise, etc. And I didn't care for Joker besides Wock's dancing, so Folie a Deux isn't interesting to me. |
|
|
|
Post by JangoB on Dec 21, 2022 23:31:04 GMT
They prefer their leads to enunciate?
|
|
|
|
Post by futuretrunks on Dec 21, 2022 23:36:12 GMT
They prefer their leads to enunciate? I think that truly might have something to do with it. He's way more mush-mouthed than he was circa Gladiator/Buffalo Soldiers, and up through his impressive vocal work in Walk the Line. Is he even capable of that sort of modulation anymore? |
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Dec 21, 2022 23:36:58 GMT
Driver almost never works with major bankable studio directors who require big budgets, without all-star ensemble casts (his Ridley Scott films, Star Wars , Silence, Lincoln, J Edgar etc) . Driver is not a leading man that auteurs who require big budgets go after to to carry films. He doesn't have enough Star Power and would lose studios money. So he works primarily in arthouse stuff and his mainstream stuff is ensemble based for the most part. So yes, it is about starpower and bankability for Phoenix. He is a great actor, but he's never been a huge star (Joker has given him some juice, but I doubt he's still much ofba draw outside of that role), so directors who need huge budgets won't neccesarily chase him to lead a film the same way they would a Brad Pitt or DiCaprio. But he absolutely has as much respect within the industry as them, if not more. He's been the lead in 2 films for Paul Thomas Anderson, who may be the most respected auteur of his generation (But who also works at a lower budget level, so can cast Phoenix without being told by studios to get a bigger star). Phoenix has also been around much longer than Driver and can afford to be selective and turn down auteurs if he doesn't like a script or part. Driver doesn't seem to say no to any auteur. Nolan just cast Cillian Murphy as his lead, and John David Washington before that. No studio would tell him he couldn't cast Joaquin in a movie if he wanted him. I'm sure Wock has commensurate respect to anyone among actors, but I'm not convinced he does with storytellers. Those comparisons are ridiculous. Cillian Murphy is surrounded by a dozen of the most currently famous actors on the planet in his ensemble cast. Robert Downey Jr, Matt Damon, Florence Pugh, Emily Blunt, Rami Malek, Gary Oldman, Ben Affleck, Casey Affleck, Kenneth Branagh etcMurphy is cast as the lead because he resembles the real Oppenheimer and he's surrounded by huge stars. It's like casting Maximillian Schell in Judgement At Nuremburg. If Phoenix looked like Oppenheimer, Nolan would cast him in a second and do the same thing (cast huge stars around him so the studios couldn't say shit).John David Washington was a gambit for Nolan and the studios, but he'd just come of a breakout role in Blackklansman, so was a "hot" new leading man that you could take a chance on (and being The son of Denzel is obviously a big PR advantage)....plus they still cast recognisable names/stars with him ( Robert Pattinson, Kenneth Branagh etc). Nolan flexed his juice with Warner Brothers and when Tenet didn't make as much as either party would like, it effectively ended his 20 year exclusive relationship with Warner Brothers. So that should tell you why Gambits aren't taken that often (even though the Covid pandemic was more to blame for the box office not reaching its potential than JDW's casting) |
|
|
|
Post by futuretrunks on Dec 21, 2022 23:59:49 GMT
Has DDL made alot of money as a star? Yet Spielberg chased him for Lincoln. Spielberg could do any number of the 100 gestating projects in his head with Joaquin, yet all we have on the horizon is a Bradley Cooper Bullitt movie and a possible western and maybe a Leo Ulysses Grant movie.
|
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Dec 22, 2022 0:05:45 GMT
Has DDL made alot of money as a star? Yet Spielberg chased him for Lincoln. Spielberg could do any number of the 100 gestating projects in his head with Joaquin, yet all we have on the horizon is a Bradley Cooper Bullitt movie and a possible western and maybe a Leo Ulysses Grant movie. Spielberg is one director. So because he doesn't have a dream project where he thinks Phoenix would not only look the part ( as DDL could as Lincoln) but be right for the role, that means he's not respected by A-list directors.
Sorry, I don't buy it. You are going to break your back with all this reaching |
|
|
|
Post by futuretrunks on Dec 22, 2022 0:27:42 GMT
Has DDL made alot of money as a star? Yet Spielberg chased him for Lincoln. Spielberg could do any number of the 100 gestating projects in his head with Joaquin, yet all we have on the horizon is a Bradley Cooper Bullitt movie and a possible western and maybe a Leo Ulysses Grant movie. Spielberg is one director. So because he doesn't have a dream project where he thinks Phoenix would not only look the part ( as DDL could as Lincoln) but be right for the role, that means he's not respected by A-list directors.
Sorry, I don't buy it. You are going to break your back with all this reaching I'm certainly speculating, but I think it's an interesting exercise. Is Joaquin difficult to deal with? De Niro had issues with him not wanting to rehearse, supposedly. Does Scorsese hear that and think "Hmm..."? |
|
|
|
Post by futuretrunks on Apr 19, 2024 1:05:50 GMT
Still no progress for Wock on this front. He's repeating with Aster and Phillips (and Ramsay), working with Haynes, almost working with Pawlikowski, etc. None of the top dogs are throwing him a bone.
|
|
|
|
Post by franklin on Apr 19, 2024 17:03:03 GMT
Wait until you will see him cast in Tarantino's final film.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Apr 19, 2024 17:24:52 GMT
Joaquin doesn't need anyone to "throw him a bone". He's been working since the mid 80s, has 3 Oscar noms and a win, and is one of the most well-known actors currently working and has a very prestigious resume. I'm not even the biggest Joaquin fan but threads like this operate on an assumption that he has something left to prove when he really doesn't.
on a deeper level, a lot of those A-list directors you mentioned already have strong existing relationships with other performers. Collaboration between artists who know how the other works comes with stability, security and trust built into a high stakes and potentially risky production/shooting process, that's why filmmakers often repeat with craftspeople too. They know and trust each others' process.
and Joaquin's been doing just fine working consistently with a variety auteurs of on interesting projects over the last several years -- Ramsay, Van Sant, Audiard, Mills, Aster, and he got his first Oscar with Todd Phillips (and is sure to have at the very least another box office hit with Folie à Deux and potentially a slew of additional noms). I don't get this obsession with career status only as connected with filmbro staples. You can be an incredibly successful performer and not have worked with Scorsese or Tarantino.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joaquim on Apr 19, 2024 18:18:06 GMT
Wait until you will see him cast in Tarantino's final film. I’m not doing that movie |
|
in C'Mon, C'Mon - his upcoming roles on paper suggest a wild range and not weirdo Phoenix at all........ huge stretch coming up for him
