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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 14, 2022 23:03:13 GMT
A verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry divisive movie - in fact, it doesn't give you what it appears it will - this Romantic-Drama is a curveball but I was hooked on it pretty much from the start and its ending - though way too long - is a compositional knockout The movie is very formulaic but it is so dazzling at directorial level that it upends the genre(s) - pic is gorgeous and well played by the two leads who are maneuvered by Park to great effect. This movie essentially is a cross between the 40s Hollywood melodramas and 90s erotic thrillers - and it is very sexy though there is no sex in it (seriously, wtf!) - it's that lush, and that sad, and that absurd...........and this plot is very absurd from a guy who specializes it. In the first 7 minutes so many things are laid out for you that you think the way this is being conveyed is a trainwreck but then you realize that's the style - pieces of conversation within scenes that you don't see played out until later........with characters sharing a screen that they are not "really" sharing but will be acted later so it's like a stunt.........and several scenes of characters shifting out of them (think Leonard in Memento being swapped out for a split second for Sammy for example).....where this film starts is nowhere near where it ends. There are several scenes where you will not be sure what is happening until much later and that can force you to say "That's it, I give up" - many lines of dialog are replayed later for character behavior and motivation and clarity - but the movie is not in any way "realistic"........it's about movie emotions ...... A lot of people are going to find this like watching paint dry - but the set pieces in this movie - including a great one on a rooftop - are so masterfully controlled and expressed I felt honored to watch them. This movie is very long (too long), very drawn out (unnecessarily tbh), very ridiculous - i t's Park's Vertigo definitely and it's also his Obsession which was De Palma's Vertigo- and it's also funny - intentionally funny - sometimes in a brief throwaway line (I love near the end when a female cop tells the male lead something like "Why are you so obsessed with her? Don't you feel bad for her?"  ).......... and it's subversive of femme fatale types and better yet a genre that doesn't really "exist" but I used to talk about in the IMDB days the destruction of the central character Will be curious to see how this plays with MAR - it's very formulaic and very subversive about the movie formula itself .......  |
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Aug 17, 2022 2:57:02 GMT
i t's Park's Vertigo definitely and it's also his Obsession which was De Palma's VertigoShadow of a Doubt seems like the most obvious other Hitchcock counterpart to a Park film (Stoker), but do you think any other Park films evoke specific Hitchcock films overall, even loosely? |
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Post by MsMovieStar on Aug 17, 2022 5:43:54 GMT
Oh honey, don't go!  |
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 17, 2022 8:04:07 GMT
i t's Park's Vertigo definitely and it's also his Obsession which was De Palma's VertigoShadow of a Doubt seems like the most obvious other Hitchcock counterpart to a Park film (Stoker), but do you think any other Park films evoke specific Hitchcock films overall, even loosely? Not so much in his specifics like Stoker but rather in his general approach and sensibility and especially his association with " other films that are Hitchcockian" the ending of Decision To Leave reminds me in a way of Blow Out - as the character's obsession with a voice, things said - and captured - inflict a kind of self imposed madness on him - so there's A LOT of De Palma rather in the construct but it feels like Hitchcock because it is so chaste and De Palma never is...... I mean it is unheard of to remove all sex from a film in this genre - and you know he was thinking "well it can be sexier look at Notorious" - like he's imposing a restriction on himself........ He does that "by association" thing a lot - I love his short "Cut" which in some ways is about the homicidal, control freak perversions of the "film director" - and his controlled chess board like "set" (below) - in the same way "Peeping Tom" is "like Hitchcock" but not specifically like " a Hitchcock" exactly.......... Oldboy has elements of his great Alfred Hitchcock Presents idea "Revenge" (1955) (and its moral implications, which seems predictable to us in 2022 - but disturbingly for 1955 is overtly about sex and revenge- I've written about that one on MAR) and even The Wrong Man - in the absurdity of the facts "ruining" the leads life - but they're thematically suggestive not actually directly connective to me....... Strangers on a Train shows up in general a lot in Park's work - there's often a central misunderstanding with sinister implications, the "double" aspect of "duality" across characters pops up in several of his films like Mr. Vengeance, Handmaiden ......  |
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Aug 17, 2022 8:33:40 GMT
Shadow of a Doubt seems like the most obvious other Hitchcock counterpart to a Park film (Stoker), but do you think any other Park films evoke specific Hitchcock films overall, even loosely? has elements of his great Alfred Hitchcock Presents idea "Revenge" (1955) (and its moral implications, which seems predictable to us in 2022 - but disturbingly for 1955 is overtly about sex and revenge- I've written about that one on MAR) and even The Wrong Man - in the absurdity of the facts "ruining" the leads life - but they're thematically suggestive not actually directly connective to me....... Yeah, I was thinking of The Wrong Man in relation to Oldboy because I know Park has said he was influenced by Kafka while making it, and of course the Hitchcock film is very Kafka-esque in its narrative. One other loose connection that I thought of is Thirst and Hitchcock’s I Confess – both centering on Catholic priests who experience a kind of inner conflict and are forced to choose whether to “break their code” or not to save themselves in some way. It’s funny you mention Notorious, because just on a basic story level, the plot synopsis sounds similar to The Little Drummer Girl, which Park directed (and which I have yet to watch).... and now with Park doing an adaptation of The Sympathizer, it sounds like he’s developed an interest in spy-themed narratives much like Hitchcock. Where would you rank Decision to Leave in Park’s filmography? |
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Post by pacinoyes on Aug 17, 2022 10:05:45 GMT
Oldboy has elements of his great Alfred Hitchcock Presents idea "Revenge" (1955) (and its moral implications, which seems predictable to us in 2022 - but disturbingly for 1955 is overtly about sex and revenge- I've written about that one on MAR) and even The Wrong Man - in the absurdity of the facts "ruining" the leads life - but they're thematically suggestive not actually directly connective to me....... Where would you rank Decision to Leave in Park’s filmography? That's tricky because unlike some of his other films there's no real violence / sordidness / unpleasantness to drive the pic so it is replaced with what I expect many (not me) to call "boredom" or an "inert" quality - which makes you not want to revisit it but it clearly needs multiple watches......the movie demands to be seen twice but not a lot of people will want to see it twice maybe .......it demands a lot of viewer attention....... It's specifically the opposite of Mr. Vengeance which got a lot of dismissive reviews that only got reconsidered after his next one.......before people grasped his approach and then which they watched repeatedly to try and "get" it / him and to understand why his emerging audience following was so enraptured by his violence / black humor....... It's middle of his filmography for some people (most?) but very pacinoyes-y so higher for me - it echoes in some ways The Conversation / Vertigo / (even) Insomnia and others I always champion ........... and it's so well made - masterfully made - I'm pretty sure its reputation and my own POV will eventually rise with time ........so below Oldboy which is an all time fave and The Handmaiden (best of its year) clearly ........it's hard to dissect after only one watch and it's too fresh for me to fully say tbh.........but it lacks their dynamic, forward moving qualities while at the same time being a fully conceived and executed work. DtL is exactly the movie he set out to make imo - like there is nothing jarring within it to make me question his directorial choices and vision or that he at any point lost control of the movie.........that goes a long way for me, like it may be flawed but it doesn't feel compromised...... |
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Aug 17, 2022 20:29:47 GMT
replaced with what I expect many (not me) to call "boredom" or an "inert" quality This sounds a little like Thirst, a film I do like but find a bit meandering at times and leaden in its pacing, which makes it not as compulsively watchable as some of his other films imo. |
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Post by ireallyamsomething on Sept 16, 2022 21:02:43 GMT
I really wanted to like this...it was especially frustrating as it had so many elements I usually love - along with being well crafted - but I just couldn't connect with it. I can't even articulate or pinpoint exactly. Maybe I couldn't get on board with the editing rhythms, especially in the first half? (which seemed somehow over long and too fast-paced; the second half seemed better) If I heard this film's and description (and that operatic. romantic ending!) I'd think I'd love it...oh well, maybe if I ever revisit it someday... (Two things I did admire are: Tang Wei has one of those faces for the cinema, so striking; and the use of technology/mobile phones in the procedural/relationship was quite well done) P.S. I would like to talk or read something on the frustrating phenomenon of watching a movie (also applies to a book) that has all the ingredients that one loves, is exceedingly well made, and still for some reason doesn't resonate.  It's an inarticulable mystery to me. Is there any particular film that you've had a similar experience with? (that which you think you should love, but for some inexplicable reason, don't) |
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Post by pacinoyes on Sept 16, 2022 21:46:16 GMT
P.S. I would like to talk or read something on the frustrating phenomenon of watching a movie (also applies to a book) that has all the ingredients that one loves, is exceedingly well made, and still for some reason doesn't resonate. It's an inarticulable mystery to me. Is there any particular film that you've had a similar experience with? (that which you think you should love, but for some inexplicable reason, don't) Happens all the time for me although it's more like I still love it just not as much as I "should" usually (like Goodfellas - which is great - but which is "as good as The Godfather Parts I and II" (GTFO) the way that Rear Window is better than Vertigo - um) but Terrence Malick does that ^ to me all the time and sometimes I don't even like them at all. I think I wrote about it on here but The Tree of Life theoretically should be my favorite movie of all time: It's wildly ambitious which I always criticize movies for never trying to do anything, it's REALLY well made which is pretty rare always, it's pretentious af and so am I  , it's an original directorial vision when I always say most directors have no POV.......it's philosophical AND religious and I'm someone who is fascinated by both of those things - to the extent that The Stranger is a favorite book and I make fun of this board for being atheist heathens. Don't get it, don't care.......... I've watched it multiple times.........which is 796 hours of my life I'll never get back btw........  |
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Post by Viced on Nov 5, 2022 23:17:15 GMT
No modern day director reveals information (plot, character, and otherwise) in a more intriguing and oddly classy way than Park. Even the things you may have possibly predicted beforehand are still riveting to watch as they're revealed. I don't know how he does it. And of course everything else is insanely well-directed too... that side mirror shot fuckin owned.
Pulling off a Vertigo-esque movie in 2022 seemed like a borderline impossible task, but he somehow pulled it off. I did feel the length a teensy bit though... but I feel like that complaint will go away on re-watch now that I know exactly where everything's leading to (one fucking doozy of an ending).
Tang Wei is unbelievably beguiling (best femme fatale of the 21st century?)... and Park Hae-il is pretty terrific too.
so glad I drove 45 minutes to see this bad boy on the big screen instead of watching it the moment it leaked like some sort of degenerate!
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Post by DeepArcher on Nov 6, 2022 15:57:41 GMT
My movie of the year, without a doubt.
This blend of swooning doomed romance and darkly comic crime procedural just plays to my exact taste; others have already belabored the Vertigo comparisons which are all accurate, it's like a funnier, sweeter variation of Vertigo that still retains a lot of that film's perverseness.
But what really makes it so exciting is Park's filmmaking. This is a movie clearly made by someone who is still excited by cinema's possibilities and the endless tools he has at his disposal - hardly a minute goes by without some disarming choice in the cinematography, editing, etc. that will take your breath away, all while the movie continues to flow at its thrillingly fast pace that's exhilarating to watch. There's obviously a great feature to the editing with the way that time and space is collapsed - illustrating the intimacy and growing attraction inherent in surveillance/voyeurism by suddenly placing the characters in the same space, for example - but as frantic and frenetic as it is, Park also never lets the film slip into needless confusion. The command of the craft is insane and he's someone who's always placing the camera exactly where it needs to be. There's a great rooftop chase scene followed by a moving camera that seems to always capture exactly what it needs to within its frame, even if it's just at the margins, that is clearly a feat of choreography that also somehow feels spontaneous as per the emotion of the scene.
Crucially, I don't think I've seen another piece of media ... ever ... that not only figures out how to capture the use of smartphones & other modern tech (smartwatches etc) in a way that's compelling, but also is actively having fun in exploring the possibilities of what you can do cinematically with all these new toys. Truly, has a film ever better captured the concept of falling in love in the modern age than the shot from the POV of the phone of Park Hae-il's eager, yearning face superimposed with the tantalizing iMessage ellipsis, bearing all the weight of romantic anticipation and connection developing in real time before our eyes? Everyone should be shooting smartphones like this as far as I'm concerned ... it just feels like it completely sets a new standard for this kind of thing.
There's so much more I could say about this and probably will in the future. For now I'd be remiss not to mention how great both Park Hae-il and Tang Wei are, not just as individual performances but together they have absolutely scintillating, face-melting chemistry. In addition to the Hitchcock and De Palma all over this movie, there is something Wong Kar-wai reminiscent about the way this captures romantic affection bubbling in unspoken ways - small gestures and symbols laced with layers of emotional meaning - the intimacy of digging through someone else's pockets; the significance of listening to a certain song over and over; the undeniable noirish sex appeal of smoking; or the way that translation is often necessary in their conversations, with the discovery of new words doubling as the discovery of new emotions; and so on. It's the kind of detail-focused storytelling I love, that provides for a million of small moments I'll obsess over as the movie lingers in my mind, and hopefully a million more to notice as I watch it again and again.
So extraordinary in so many ways that it's easy for me to forgive the parts that don't totally work (and for me, there's hardly any). Since I started using Letterboxd (mid-2016) - and really even since I started closely keeping up with new movies to the extent I now do - there have only been three new films that I instantly rated five-stars upon a first viewing. Phantom Thread, The Irishman ... and now this.
Won't be for everyone, I guess, but couldn't be more for me.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Nov 17, 2022 23:24:51 GMT
Maybe the most low-key and restrained movie Park has ever made, but also his most hopelessly romantic one. I agree with DeepArcher that this actually kind of feels like Park/Hitchcock filtered through Wong Kar-wai.
Very understated for Park and seems unlike him in a way, but still features his characteristic dark humor and occasionally disorienting editing rhythms reminiscent of the Vengeance trilogy. Feels a bit too long though, and it’s the only other movie in his filmography besides Thirst where I can feel the length... this is a better movie than Thirst though imo.
It’s not as surprising or as boldly weird as some of his other films, so I’d rank it in the bottom half of his filmography... but it would obviously be the best film in countless other directors’ catalogs, so it’s a testament to Park’s greatness that I consider it a “mid-tier” film for him. Definitely want to give it a second viewing, and I could see liking it even more on rewatch. It’s the kind of movie that worms its way into your brain and lingers there for days after seeing it. Currently my #3 of the year behind Tár and Banshees.
My updated Park ranking:
1. Oldboy – 10/10
2. The Handmaiden – 9/10
3. Lady Vengeance – 8.5/10
4. Joint Security Area – 8/10
5. Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance – 8/10
6. Decision to Leave – 8/10
7. Stoker – 8/10
8. Thirst – 7.5/10
9. I'm a Cyborg, But That's OK – 6/10
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Nov 18, 2022 4:04:40 GMT
Also, I think this would sort of make a good double feature with Burning - the idea of the central character being obsessively drawn to what he cannot “know,” decipher, or solve - whether that means a kind of truth or a specific person - and being haunted by enigmas (namely female characters and/or their fate). |
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Nov 23, 2022 1:58:52 GMT
Absolutely loved this.
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on Dec 11, 2022 0:36:45 GMT
really really bad. i was never a park fan really aside from JSA but this is just embarrassing at this pt. long and calculated in the dumbest of ways. probably won't see anything else of his at this pt, even if i faulted his prior work i wouldn't at least call it lifeless. worst of the year material!
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forksforest
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Post by forksforest on Dec 17, 2022 19:45:37 GMT
Loved it, probably my favorite of the year (so far), it was utterly thrilling and i left wanting more (not that there is much more to add to that lol). Both leads were mesmerizing (and gorgeous, which doesn't hurt), the balancing of so many genres (comedy, thriller, romance, drama, crime) was done skillfully and organically.
It's been a few weeks so the one thing I'll say is I don't find myself thinking back about this movie as much as i usually do my favorites of a year, maybe because it didn't leave too too much to reflect on after-the-fact? It felt a bit self-contained in terms of themes, larger meaning.
I still love Stoker the best out of what I've seen of Park Chan-wook.
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Post by Pavan on Dec 31, 2022 7:36:20 GMT
Park Chan-wook's Vertigo. Also the least Park outing of his Ouvre I've seen. A tale of obsession turned into a doomed romance with enough mystery and swoon to it that it's never not engaging. The first hour is almost Hitchcockian perfection but Park loses grip in the later hour for some time and the plot also gets convoluted a little, but he brings his best during the last minutes where the feels come right out. Park at his most restrained and emotional.
Tang Wei is so endlessly watchable as Seo-rae. She gave one of my favorite performances of the year.
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Post by stabcaesar on Jan 3, 2023 17:23:48 GMT
There comes a point when the mystery becomes toothless and annoying, which in this film is at about the one hour mark. I was just so over it by the end of it.
Tang Wei was good, the cinematography and the editing were also good, but the movie felt like a montage of the director showing off what he could do without an anchor.
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Archie
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Post by Archie on Jan 27, 2023 15:58:59 GMT
Absolutely loved the first half, but this really lost me after the time jump unfortunately. Didn't care about anything that was going on and the drawn-out ending was unintentionally hilarious. Technical stuff is aces though, and Tang Wei will always be a goddess.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Feb 1, 2023 19:19:57 GMT
god, what a film. Finally watched this last night and not sure exactly what to think of it except... wow. After being disappointed time and time again by 2022 cinema it's nice to watch a film knowing a true master is behind the camera. I wouldn't even call myself a Park fan (but I wasn't a Bong fan before Parasite either) but his directing is felt in every single frame of this film. It's so exceptionally crafted that it's kind of breathtaking. I'm obsessed with the editing in this, very fluid and weaves in and out between fantasy, memory, and dreamy reality. For my money this is the best editing I've seen all year. Constant buildup and payoff, even in small things like the brand of a sushi meal that you wouldn't think would matter but it does - 5 seconds from now or 45 minutes, if you're paying attention it does. one good example of the editing is that scene where the gangster kills himself and the scene cuts jarringly between that moment and the following scene with Hae-jun later describing it over the phone. The way Kim Sang-bum edits between the scene conveys the violence of the moment without any gore as well as its lingering effects on Jang's psyche. Hours later, it feels to him like it *just* happened seconds ago. What an amazing sequence and the movie is chock full of those. I'll agree it loses some narrative steam after the time jump simply because the doomed nature of this relationship feels inevitable in every frame. The title in context of the ending could not be more provocative or disturbing. And yes Tang Wei holds your attention completely whenever she's onscreen and it's a brilliantly mysterious & beguiling performance but Park Hae-il's haunted turn is excellent too. That scene of him standing on the cliff after scattering the ashes is so moving and also disturbing, because in that one moment of resignation he had made his own decision to leave. All unspoken but conveyed through Park's acting, the writing, and the editing that holds you on the edge of your seat the power of this relationship and the violence it brings with it. Park's performance evolves as the character's inner life is thrown into chaos and he becomes more and more lost in his obsession. The more I think about it, the more I love it. And that's not a sufficient way to describe it even because I love all sorts of movies but this was genuinely shocking and surprising. |
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Post by Martin Stett on Jun 14, 2023 20:27:08 GMT
The problem with this movie - and it is a big one! - is that the core romantic relationship isn't sexy. Tang Wei is duller than dishwater in her performance, and Park doesn't shoot her in any way to make her at all intriguing or mysterious. The mystery is straightforward, and the only reason - THE ONLY REASON - the detective swoons over her is because she's pretty. There is no allure of a forbidden fruit (outside of him being married, which is about him and not her). She seems like a perfectly ordinary (possible) murderer with nothing to set her aside from anyone else. (Edit: I guess the forbidden fruit is that she's a murder suspect? That still has nothing to do with her, though - it is just a position she holds.)
And the whole movie hinges on us buying that he is obsessed with this woman. The only reason that he would be is because he has a hard-on for her... which isn't communicated in the lighting or the editing or through any directorial means at all. On the writing side, there is the (on-the-nose) bit with the murderer on the rooftop and how that is mirrored thematically later on, but this "depth" to theme comes at the cost of grinding the movie to a halt to cover that subplot.
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).......... and it's subversive of femme fatale types and better yet a genre that doesn't really "exist" but I used to talk about in the IMDB days 
It's an inarticulable mystery to me. Is there any particular film that you've had a similar experience with? (that which you think you should love, but for some inexplicable reason, don't)
, it's an original directorial vision when I always say most directors have no POV.......it's philosophical AND religious and I'm someone who is fascinated by both of those things - to the extent that The Stranger is a favorite book and I make fun of this board for being atheist heathens.
