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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 1, 2021 0:40:46 GMT
Well, it wasn't meant signify anything. It just encapsulated my own thoughts with a snazzy graphic of Loki Now that I’ve seen the episode I’m more cemented that this is much better than TFATWS. Apologies to you and PURPMINDED420 but we’re on opposite side on this one. Fair enough. I don't get it though. There's nothing to talk about with this dumb show, and it's nearly over.The only thing I see most people talking about is Loki maybe being bisexual and "shipping" him with Sylvie. The talking points (or lack of them) reflect how shallow this show is.They've stretched this thing out like turkey meat. Hope you enjoy the rest of it, but this will go down as one of Marvels most forgettable efforts, imho. I do have high hopes for Hawkeye though, especially as that is more likely to follow the grounded, real world aesthetic Of TFATWS, which I enjoyed a lot more than this. IGN only gave episode 4 a rating of 5/10 in it's review, so it looks like some outlets have stopped buying the kool-aid as well.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Jul 1, 2021 0:48:53 GMT
For those saying that this show is better than TFATWS, why do you think so? -I think Loki is a much more interesting character than either of those two and Huddleston brings much more to the role than Mackie or Stan. That's funny, because I basically feel the exact opposite - the more I watch Loki, the more I think he works much better as a side character because I don't think he's really compelling enough to warrant his own show.... he's entertaining to watch as an antagonist in other stuff, but I actually find myself much more interested in Owen Wilson's character and the mystery of the TVA. But while I'm still curious to see where this show goes plot-wise, I just found TFATWS much more involving in terms of how it explored its characters and commented on identity crises in connection with broader social issues that the MCU had never really probed before (but not in a way that felt pandering imo).
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Post by Pavan on Jul 7, 2021 11:06:38 GMT
Episode 5. "You throw a rock out here, it hits a Loki", that's how many Lokis are there including a President Loki. Romantic tension between Loki and Sylvie continues so does the person who's hiding in the void . I'm guessing Kang or another Loki? Classic Loki was so powerful. Richard E. Grant stole this episode.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Jul 9, 2021 0:00:09 GMT
Someone is going to have a field day writing a thinkpiece on the music in that last episode - Wagner finally going from subtext to text in the MCU haha (though it would have been even cooler and more apt to use the Valhalla motive at the end when the portal opened after the augmented Ride of the Valkyries appearance).
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Jul 9, 2021 1:56:17 GMT
Considering there's only one episode, I'm thinking the person hiding behind the Void is either another Loki or at least someone connected to him- Thor, Heimdall, etc. Considering there will be a season 2, they might introduce Kang then
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Post by mhynson27 on Jul 9, 2021 2:09:50 GMT
Considering there's only one episode, I'm thinking the person hiding behind the Void is either another Loki or at least someone connected to him- Thor, Heimdall, etc. Considering there will be a season 2, they might introduce Kang then Well depends which comes first, Loki S2 or Ant-Man 3.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Jul 9, 2021 14:23:00 GMT
Considering there's only one episode, I'm thinking the person hiding behind the Void is either another Loki or at least someone connected to him- Thor, Heimdall, etc. Considering there will be a season 2, they might introduce Kang then I’d bet on it being Kang .
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Post by Pavan on Jul 14, 2021 10:44:02 GMT
Episode 6. Yes, just what we are all expecting. It's Kang after all. Still a pleasant surprise. Liked the fight and the kiss . Few intense moments before everything turns to chaos. Good morning Dr. Strange, the Marvel Multiverse has begun.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Jul 14, 2021 22:59:27 GMT
Overall really great series. Ending obviously a set up for the next few MCU movies but not a the stake of the development of the main characters and their story.
Updated: Loki > WandaVision > Falcon and the Winter Soldier
All solid though and I continue to be excited for the upcoming D+ series.
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Clara
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Post by Clara on Jul 16, 2021 1:11:05 GMT
Sorry for the strong opinions, I just needed a place to rant so take it with a grain of salt. (spoilers ahead)
This series is basic af and it drives me crazy that people think it's the best recent Marvel miniseries.
It completely fails the "show, don't tell" rule of screenwriting. It reminds me of the cop-out strategy in anime where episodes are filled with talking because it's cheaper to animate than actual plot. Even if covid restrictions forced the writers to restructure some scenes, that doesn't fix the that this series feels like a Loki fanfic designed primarily as a venue to give the fans that "moment with Hiddleston" they've all been waiting for (omg LOKI IS BI!!! omg LOKI HAS A GIRLFRIEND!!! omg FIGHT AND KISS!!! cue screaming fangirls).
It's leagues behind FATWS in terms of worldbuilding, but I'll just ignore that and pass it off as part of the simplified Dr. Who-style world logic/aesthetic that Loki seems to be drawing from.
I guess what really gets me is the exceptionally positive reception of Loki versus generally liked Wandavision and more mixed FATWS. It seems to exemplify the problem that US audiences would rather engage with this easy, comfortable, funnier, but ultimately more shallow show than challenge themselves with deeper feelings, people who look different, or those with different cultural experiences than their own. Like, I get it's "just entertainment," but I just can't shake this vibe.
Like, we would rather watch and empathize with a white guydemigod go to therapy and psychoanalyze his personal failings and self-made mistakes over and over (and over...) with different characters across multiple episodes with some plot to justify the long ramblings (or contrived romances to justify some feelings).
Loki’s emotional growth comes from as place where he was born into privilege as a prince, with abundant wealth and magical power, but yet feels "unappreciated and misunderstood" by his flawed but ultimately loving and accepting family, leading to identity issues. Even this premise could be mined for some payoff (see the very short arc they gave the self-sacrifice of Richard E. Grant's Loki, but which was motivated by telling you--not showing you--his backstory) and the series will likely go in this direction later.
But compare that to the emotional depth of Wanda in Wandavision, which pulled apart the stages of grief in the death of a significant other, and explored the benefits and limits of fiction in helping us escape/process those feelings. Or the complex emotional scope of FATWS: dealing the past and present wounds of racism (Sam), your own broken history (Bucky), poverty and failed government (Karli Morgenthau), or even mistakes born of good intentions (John Walker).
I just don't get it.
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Jul 16, 2021 2:06:13 GMT
First of all, this idea that show don't tell is an absolute rule that must never be broken is non-sense. If you can tell pretty well, you don't need to show it- a good example is that "half-measures" speech by Mike in Breaking Bad, which is basically one of the most memorable scenes in TV history yet is simply told by showing Jonathan Banks' face for a few minutes. There's probably an even better example than this one in Persona.
This one works too (though I'm not saying is in that level), because of Majors' excellent performance, and because it deliberately creates ambiguity- if we are simply shown that Not Kang is right, then there's not the suspense and ambiguity that it requires. We simply have to trust him, or not, just like the characters.
Second, not all stories have to be about the underdogs and the outcasts. And it's a very tiring complaint these days- all stories that have privileged people have to be about how they suck.
Loki is ultimately, well, a loser, and that's what he learns when he watches how it all ends for him. Yes, he's a rich asshole that has to learn to be better, but that's also what happens to Thor (and Stark, and Strange). Is not necessarily a bad thing, and if he succeeded, would end with him getting what he wanted- nigh omnipotence, but with completely different motives, and no one would ever know he even existed. Now, he has nothing- no Asgard, no Thor, no Mobius, no Sylvie, etc. He ends the season, ironically enough, as the underdog and the outcast.
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Clara
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Post by Clara on Jul 16, 2021 4:53:04 GMT
My main issue is more with the reception of the show than the show itself. First of all, this idea that show don't tell is an absolute rule that must never be broken is non-sense. This is true, it's just the show does a LOT of it. Frankly this series is salvaged by the whole-hearted commitment that the actors themselves put into their performances so all that dialogue isn't insufferably boring. I didn't mind Kang's monologue in the last episode (although I wish it were shorter) and there are definitely situations where a character recounting something is both more effective and more efficient (like that one). I think what bothers me is lots of the talking scenes give me fanfiction vibes. They don't seem motivated by moving the plot along as much as finding some excuse for someone to psychoanalyze another character, primarily Loki. Like the multiple sit-downs between Mobius and Loki that are just long conversations of Loki admitting his flaws. Have this happen once, fine, but this exchange goes on in like in every other episode. The romance between Sylvie and Loki has this same problem. Stick Sylvie and Loki in a bar under the storytelling pretenses that this is where the "romantic spark" happens, and Loki does all the talking! Sylvie is so underwritten across this series that it's really frustrating--she's just some generic "strong female" type with nothing distinctive given to her outside of her role of bringing down the TVA and being a pretty face for Loki to pine at. Seriously, with a female version of Loki we couldn't have any kind of witty banter (how could a female version of a Loki barely talk!?) or joint scheming (he follows her lead only)? Doesn't romance happen with at least something of a give and take? But instead the focus remains on Loki the whole time, and prioritizes talking over plot-driven interactions. I really like your characterization of Loki's arc by the end of the season, and I wish that the show had done more to foreground the things he was giving up that you outlined in making that choice (you added some details that I didn't catch or that might be part of the Marvel stories that I don't know). But as you're pointing out, it's a story trope that we often see: a selfish character comes face to face with their flaws and learns to put others above themselves, becoming a better person than they were before. Loki is basically putting an anti-hero spin on a premise that Marvel has already mined in multiple characters, and one that's common across all kinds of storytelling media. Heck, it's even a trope I enjoy. I guess I'm just kinda frustrated that people would regard a new version of the same kind of story they've had via Marvel before as better than other stories that go in different, more creative directions.
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Post by Pavan on Jul 16, 2021 7:04:05 GMT
Falcon and Winter Soldier had great ideas but it didn't stick with me all the time. I liked some of it and the rest, bleh. I felt for Loki in his therapy session than Sam or Bucky. In reality it should've been easy to connect to Sam and Bucky than that asshole Loki. The makers of TFATWS had the material but they couldn't elevate it.
Wandavision is still the best MCU Disney+ series overall. It's fresh, creative at times and brilliantly performed. A bit underwhelming in the final show off but i don't mind it.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Jul 18, 2021 1:25:08 GMT
A couple things that confused me in episode 2 that I decided to wait to bring up in case they were clarified at all or made irrelevant by the end... but weren't: - Some of the dialogue just felt like the writers preemptively trying to address whatever plot holes they think fans will pick at with explanations that still don't make a lick of sense (Mobius says they can't just go back in time to before a Variant first arrives because "the branch is still changing and growing, so you have to show up in real time"..... which doesn't actually clarify why going back before the nexus event isn't an option but whatever). - Mobius explains to Loki that the TVA's job will become unnecessary when the Time Keepers (later revealed to be Kang) decide how everything will end. But why? Can't variants still exist in the past, which would still require the TVA to do their job like.... forever? Am I missing something, or is this just a case of Mobius spouting stuff that's not meant to make sense because at this point he's still just a blind believer in whatever has been told to him about the TVA?
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 18, 2021 1:44:41 GMT
Director Kate Herron won't be returning for a Season 2 of Loki. To me this is an obvious sign that Marvel knows something didn't work with the first season, despite the Marvel brand and fan loyalty being enough to promote it as a "hit". I don’t know if I would put the blame at the feet of the director. On a season of a TV show, the buck ultimately stops with the head writer/showrunner. So it'll be interesting to see if they get replaced as well.
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Post by mhynson27 on Jul 18, 2021 4:04:18 GMT
Director Kate Herron won't be returning for a Season 2 of Loki. To me this is an obvious sign that Marvel knows something didn't work with the first season, despite the Marvel brand and fan loyalty being enough to promote it as a "hit". I don’t know if I would put the blame at the feet of the director. On a season of a TV show, the buck ultimately stops with the head writer/showrunner. So it'll be interesting to see if they get replaced as well. Nice try, but no. If you actually bothered to read the article, you would have seen this quote from Kate, "I'm not returning," Herron said. "I always planned to be just on for this, and to be honest, Season 2 wasn't in the — that's something that just came out, and I'm so excited". She didn't get replaced, Marvel isn't trying to course correct, this is Kate's own decision because she only ever planned to do the one season. I know you keep on trying to push this narrative of Loki not being as loved or successful as the other shows, but that's just purely your bias coming into play. Loki has better audience and critic ratings, and is the most important out of the 3 shows for the MCU moving forward. It also says in the article, that Kate is already working on several other projects, so she wouldn't really have the time anyway. And lol, Waldron isn't getting replaced, the writing is one of the most praised aspects, and Waldron is also writing Dr. Strange 2 and is attached to Feige's Star Wars project. Feige clearly likes him.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 18, 2021 5:33:54 GMT
Director Kate Herron won't be returning for a Season 2 of Loki. To me this is an obvious sign that Marvel knows something didn't work with the first season, despite the Marvel brand and fan loyalty being enough to promote it as a "hit". I don’t know if I would put the blame at the feet of the director. On a season of a TV show, the buck ultimately stops with the head writer/showrunner. So it'll be interesting to see if they get replaced as well. Nice try, but no. If you actually bothered to read the article, you would have seen this quote from Kate, "I'm not returning," Herron said. "I always planned to be just on for this, and to be honest, Season 2 wasn't in the — that's something that just came out, and I'm so excited". She didn't get replaced, Marvel isn't trying to course correct, this is Kate's own decision because she only ever planned to do the one season. I know you keep on trying to push this narrative of Loki not being as loved or successful as the other shows, but that's just purely your bias coming into play. Loki has better audience and critic ratings, and is the most important out of the 3 shows for the MCU moving forward. It also says in the article, that Kate is already working on several other projects, so she wouldn't really have the time anyway. And lol, Waldron isn't getting replaced, the writing is one of the most praised aspects, and Waldron is also writing Dr. Strange 2 and is attached to Feige's Star Wars project. Feige clearly likes him. I read the article. I also have zero interest in your opinion. I said what I said. The end. Thanks .
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Post by Miles Morales on Jul 18, 2021 7:18:53 GMT
Director Kate Herron won't be returning for a Season 2 of Loki. To me this is an obvious sign that Marvel knows something didn't work with the first season, despite the Marvel brand and fan loyalty being enough to promote it as a "hit". I don’t know if I would put the blame at the feet of the director. On a season of a TV show, the buck ultimately stops with the head writer/showrunner. So it'll be interesting to see if they get replaced as well. I have the feeling that Loki was meant to be one season of 12 episodes which was split into two thanks to COVID. Up until the finale it was promoted as being a limited series similarly to WandaVision and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. In the meantime, Kate Herron picked up more projects and thus won't be able to commit to direct the second season. I really don't think it goes deeper than that; Loki is vastly well-liked by both critics and especially audiences and performed insanely well on Disney+, to the point that Disney moved the episode releases of all shows on Wednesday instead of Friday. Plus directors from more modestly received projects have returned for the sequels (e.g. Peyton Reed for Ant-Man). It doesn't make sense for Marvel to drop a director just because some people weren't pleased with it - it would be like dropping James Gunn from GotG 3 just because Vol. 2 didn't get a Rotten Tomatoes score in the 90% region. Also Michael Waldron, the showrunner, is likely in charge of at least one part of the multiverse arc, between showrunning this and being a writer on Doctor Strange 2. Unless he gets busy with other projects as well, he won't be replaced.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 18, 2021 8:12:16 GMT
Director Kate Herron won't be returning for a Season 2 of Loki. To me this is an obvious sign that Marvel knows something didn't work with the first season, despite the Marvel brand and fan loyalty being enough to promote it as a "hit". I don’t know if I would put the blame at the feet of the director. On a season of a TV show, the buck ultimately stops with the head writer/showrunner. So it'll be interesting to see if they get replaced as well. I have the feeling that Loki was meant to be one season of 12 episodes which was split into two thanks to COVID. Up until the finale it was promoted as being a limited series similarly to WandaVision and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. In the meantime, Kate Herron picked up more projects and thus won't be able to commit to direct the second season. I really don't think it goes deeper than that; Loki is vastly well-liked by both critics and especially audiences and performed insanely well on Disney+, to the point that Disney moved the episode releases of all shows on Wednesday instead of Friday. Plus directors from more modestly received projects have returned for the sequels (e.g. Peyton Reed for Ant-Man). It doesn't make sense for Marvel to drop a director just because some people weren't pleased with it - it would be like dropping James Gunn from GotG 3 just because Vol. 2 didn't get a Rotten Tomatoes score in the 90% region. Also Michael Waldron, the showrunner, is likely in charge of at least one part of the multiverse arc, between showrunning this and being a writer on Doctor Strange 2. Unless he gets busy with other projects as well, he won't be replaced. Loki was always a Wednesday show. It wasn't moved from the usual Friday release because of how it performed on Disney + screenrant.com/loki-show-disney-plus-release-schedule-wednesday-reason/You may be right, but I just got reminded of how Alan Taylor got told he wasn't required to return after Thor: The Dark World and how Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck weren't asked back for the Captain Marvel sequel, even though it made over a billion dollars . I know the party line is that Herron is busy with other stuff and it's her choice etc etc, but Kevin Feige loves to keep creative teams or key creatives consistent on sub-franchises when he thinks everything is clicking (I guess he loves what Peyton Reed has done with the Ant-Man films creatively, as he's given him 3 movies). It may even be something as basic as creative tension between Herron and Waldron and not necessarily being disappointed with the show itself, but I don't find it odd at all to speculate that she may not be coming back simply because of what she said in her PR statement. That might even be a bit naive. I do know lots of decisions at Marvel are made, and we often don't find out the true reasons or behind the scenes power struggles till years later (like the whole creative council thing putting roadblocks in Feige's plans).
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Jul 18, 2021 16:27:20 GMT
Nice try, but no. If you actually bothered to read the article, you would have seen this quote from Kate, "I'm not returning," Herron said. "I always planned to be just on for this, and to be honest, Season 2 wasn't in the — that's something that just came out, and I'm so excited". She didn't get replaced, Marvel isn't trying to course correct, this is Kate's own decision because she only ever planned to do the one season. I know you keep on trying to push this narrative of Loki not being as loved or successful as the other shows, but that's just purely your bias coming into play. Loki has better audience and critic ratings, and is the most important out of the 3 shows for the MCU moving forward. It also says in the article, that Kate is already working on several other projects, so she wouldn't really have the time anyway. And lol, Waldron isn't getting replaced, the writing is one of the most praised aspects, and Waldron is also writing Dr. Strange 2 and is attached to Feige's Star Wars project. Feige clearly likes him. I read the article. I also have zero interest in your opinion. I said what I said. The end. Thanks . A.K.A. you do love making up your own narratives and don’t care if you can back them up at all.
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Post by Miles Morales on Jul 18, 2021 17:39:35 GMT
I wasn't referring to Loki - that was always meant to release on Wednesdays - but other Disney+ shows. Monsters at Work, What If? and so on are all releasing on Wednesdays now. The only shows following a Friday schedule right now are Star Wars: The Bad Batch (already running on a predetermined schedule before Loki released) and The Mysterious Benedict Society (not a valued IP so likely Disney didn't care to shift it to another day). Comparing Loki to The Dark World and Captain Marvel is a bit false because TDW is widely agreed to be the worst MCU film and Thor himself needed a revamp (which is why Ragnarok took a completely different direction), and CM is one of the more divisive entries of the franchise and Feige was probably looking for POC female directors because of the inclusion of Ms Marvel and Monica Rambeau in the cast roster. Loki was received considerably better than either of those and is likely a two-part story arc not unlike Infinity War-Endgame (given the massive universe-breaking cliffhanger and tons of unanswered questions Season 1 left). Could Herron and Waldron have some creative differences among each other while making Season 1, which is why she is not returning for Season 2? Possibly. It's also very possible that Kate has too much on her plate right now to commit to directing Season 2, and Feige doesn't want to force her to return.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 18, 2021 20:22:02 GMT
I read the article. I also have zero interest in your opinion. I said what I said. The end. Thanks . A.K.A. you do love making up your own narratives and don’t care if you can back them up at all. Nope. I've had few recent unprovoked run-ins with that poster, and I'm exercising my right not to get into any back and forth with him for now. It's not about the topic. I'm respectful to people who are respectful to me. Don't want to get overly dramatic about this, so moving on..... I backed up my position in my subsequent post to Miles Morales. Which wasn't exactly hard to miss, even if you choose to disagree with it.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Aug 10, 2021 14:47:49 GMT
yeeeeeah I'm watching it now and it's pretty fun but I don't know what to think about the fact that Loki is canonically queer now because it's revealed in such a bashful way that I'm sure a lot of people would've missed it if the internet hadn't gone crazy. I'm so bored with Disney's subtle winks towards LGBTQ viewers. It's not technically queerbaiting, but it *feels* like queerbaiting because there's nothing remotely queer in this story except that one throwaway line and you know they're not going to explore it further and it'll never be a meaningful dimension to his character. Who feels represented by this in 2021? And if representation isn't the point then what is? Honestly queerbaiting would've been better because at least you could project onto that in a fun way. You can't project anything onto this at all because Mobius and Loki are so explicitly #NoHomo that it hurts such a missed opportunity
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Pasquale
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Post by Pasquale on Dec 7, 2021 15:09:04 GMT
Terrific fun.
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Post by Martin Stett on Apr 27, 2022 2:46:37 GMT
Two episodes in and my sister came up with a theory: All of the TVA workers are variants. Stolen at birth or otherwise memory erased. I posit that if this is the case, then let's go a step further: they are all Loki, and the Time Keepers are variants of Odin fucking him around because Odin has always been a dick and it would suit the rat bastard to "adopt" variants of his kid. As for the show so far... it's alright. Pretty standard network sci-fi show, but it's entertaining enough at the moment.
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