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Post by franklin on Apr 28, 2021 12:58:39 GMT
McDormand is a great actress, but limited in range. Is she really worthy of three Leading Oscars???
Is she really someone that can be considered an all time performer that can have three Oscars like all-time icons such as Day-Lewis, Streep, Nicholson, Hepburn, and Bergman???
Vote and comment.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 28, 2021 13:18:06 GMT
Well the wording of the question is wrong - it is never an award of merit so nobody "deserves" an Oscar - it's like asking whether the Prom Queen of some high school "deserved" it. That's why make up awards are not only fine.......they're logical. I would argue she's a lesser actor than all 5 of those others - those people are all top 10 or higher in their gender. She's not..... We used to discuss whether she was "the least talented" "modern" Triple Crown winning female - which is to me a more interesting argument (and I think this board would say .......... that's Lange or........um, Davis). I can see why she won though love her first 2 wins and Nomadland I don't argue it much - I had her 2nd of the nominees behind Mulligan - and she does an entirely different kind of acting - I mean she saves scenes opposite blocks of wood in Nomadland.
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LaraQ
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Post by LaraQ on Apr 28, 2021 13:26:13 GMT
She absolutely deserved the Oscar for Fargo and given how weak the competition was in 2018,she probably deserved it for Three Billboards too.But Nomadland?.No.She should only have 2 Oscars right now.
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Post by Allenism on Apr 28, 2021 13:28:22 GMT
She absolutely deserved the Oscar for Fargo IMO she was the worst of the nominees, barring Keaton whose film I haven't seen. Watson or Blethyn would've much worthier winners that year.
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Post by TerryMontana on Apr 28, 2021 13:30:08 GMT
She deserved all three imo.
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Post by JangoB on Apr 28, 2021 13:30:35 GMT
First of all, she's absolutely not limited in range. Seems like you might be limited in your view of her.
As for the Oscars, let's put it this way: it is a bit weird that Frances McDormand of all people is a winner of a triple Oscar crown when folks like Peter O'Toole or Albert Finney couldn't even get one damn thing, BUT each of her individual Oscars is, in my view, a deserving one because all three of her winning performances are wonderful. And wildly different which is why your claim about her being limited seems even more ridiculous to me.
For instance, Ingrid Bergman is an absolute legend for whom three Oscars seem like a great fit on paper. But if we look at her winning performances, only "Gaslight" was worthy of such honor. So did she deserve three Oscars? As someone of her immense talent and status, absolutely. If we look at those three separate instances? Hell no. While with McDormand is kind of the opposite - she may not (yet) seem like a cinematic legend, but her three winning turns were all totally worthy.
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Post by stabcaesar on Apr 28, 2021 13:35:20 GMT
Her wins aren't bad, but in all three years there's at least one better nominee in the lot imo.
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Post by stephen on Apr 28, 2021 13:37:44 GMT
Yes. She was legitimately the best in the field the first two times she won, and she's at least top two of the nominated field this time (and the margin is so thin either way). And it helps that she is a titanically talented actress. So yes. Now let it go.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 28, 2021 13:55:42 GMT
Her film career is closer to Walter Brennan (look him up. He also has 3 Oscars for acting) than most of the other 3 time winners in that like Brennan, she always felt more like a respected character/supporting actress on film than a great leading star. So her having 3 Best Actress Oscars does feel like an outlier on the surface of things. But who gives a shit really. Hillary Swank has two Oscars and Glenn Close, Sigourney Weaver and Michelle Pfieffer have none. Swank's career is not held in the same esteem as any of them. McDormand is a great actress, and to be honest, she has some time to seem less of an outlier if she keeps racking up great leading parts. The Tragedy Of Macbeth seems a very good step in that direction.
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Post by wilcinema on Apr 28, 2021 13:55:59 GMT
First of all, she's absolutely not limited in range. Seems like you might be limited in your view of her. As for the Oscars, let's put it this way: it is a bit weird that Frances McDormand of all people is a winner of a triple Oscar crown when folks like Peter O'Toole or Albert Finney couldn't even get one damn thing, BUT each of her individual Oscars is, in my view, a deserving one because all three of her winning performances are wonderful. And wildly different which is why your claim about her being limited seems even more ridiculous to me. For instance, Ingrid Bergman is an absolute legend for whom three Oscars seem like a great fit on paper. But if we look at her winning performances, only "Gaslight" was worthy of such honor. So did she deserve three Oscars? As someone of her immense talent and status, absolutely. If we look at those three separate instances? Hell no. While with McDormand is kind of the opposite - she may not (yet) seem like a cinematic legend, but her three winning turns were all totally worthy. Yeah, debating over this is kind of silly. Vivien Leigh gave two of the greatest performances of all time that deservingly won Oscars, but outside of those two, I don't think I've ever seen a performance by her that I really liked.
Oscars are not a useful metric to judge an actor.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 28, 2021 14:09:57 GMT
First of all, she's absolutely not limited in range. Seems like you might be limited in your view of her. As for the Oscars, let's put it this way: it is a bit weird that Frances McDormand of all people is a winner of a triple Oscar crown when folks like Peter O'Toole or Albert Finney couldn't even get one damn thing, BUT each of her individual Oscars is, in my view, a deserving one because all three of her winning performances are wonderful. And wildly different which is why your claim about her being limited seems even more ridiculous to me. For instance, Ingrid Bergman is an absolute legend for whom three Oscars seem like a great fit on paper. But if we look at her winning performances, only "Gaslight" was worthy of such honor. So did she deserve three Oscars? As someone of her immense talent and status, absolutely. If we look at those three separate instances? Hell no. While with McDormand is kind of the opposite - she may not (yet) seem like a cinematic legend, but her three winning turns were all totally worthy. Yeah, debating over this is kind of silly. Vivien Leigh gave two of the greatest performances of all time that deservingly won Oscars, but outside of those two, I don't think I've ever seen a performance by her that I really liked. Oscars are not a useful metric to judge an actor.
Anyone who doesn't like Leigh in Waterloo Bridge doesn't have a soul . She's magnificent and heartbreaking in that movie. imho. Leigh is a much different animal. Not only are her two Oscar winning performances held up as two of the best screen performances of all-time (I don't think any of McDormand's wins are held in that kind of regard), she was leading lady with a very small filmography. Only 19 film credits (A lot of them minor ones before Gone With The Wind). Her legend is in part based on her selectivity. She is closer to someone like Montgomery Clift or Daniel Day-Lewis, who also had small filmographies compared to the majority of their peers. Some people also felt Laurence Olivier also conspired to prevent Leigh from accepting more film roles (to do stage with him) as he might have been envious of her greater facility for film acting. Leigh turned down a lot of movies during her marriage to Olivier. She could conceivably have won 3 Oscars herself if she took more roles on film.
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Post by therealcomicman117 on Apr 28, 2021 14:26:10 GMT
Yeah, debating over this is kind of silly. Vivien Leigh gave two of the greatest performances of all time that deservingly won Oscars, but outside of those two, I don't think I've ever seen a performance by her that I really liked. Oscars are not a useful metric to judge an actor.
Anyone who doesn't like Leigh in Waterloo Bridge doesn't have a soul . She's magnificent and heartbreaking in that movie. imho. Leigh is a much different animal. Not only are her two Oscar winning performances held up as two of the best screen performances of all-time (I don't think any of McDormand's wins are held in that kind of regard), she was leading lady with a very small filmography. Only 19 film credits (A lot of them minor ones before Gone With The Wind). Her legend is in part based on her selectivity. She is closer to someone like Montgomery Clift or Daniel Day-Lewis, who also had small filmographies compared to the majority of their peers. Some people also felt Laurence Olivier also conspired to prevent Leigh from accepting more film roles (to do stage with him) as he might have been envious of her greater facility for film acting. Leigh turned down a lot of movies during her marriage to Olivier. She could conceivably have won 3 Oscars herself if she took more roles on film. Yeah, Leigh is more of a tragic case of an Oscar winner. She did very few movies, and had a lot of personal problems, and issues that prevented her from taking on more potentially challenging roles. Most of her other movies didn't catch on partially because they were mostly smaller UK productions, stemming from the fact that she didn't want to live the Hollywood lifestyle. Waterloo Bridge and That Hamilton Woman are interesting partially because it was a reminder of what her could have been, as those were her immediate follow-up to Gone With The Wind, and then after that she wouldn't make another movie for four years.
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Post by TheAlwaysClassy on Apr 28, 2021 15:12:01 GMT
Her wins aren't bad, but in all three years there's at least one better nominee in the lot imo. My feelings exactly. I like her alot, but if she had zero Oscars I wouldn't consider it any kind of travesty.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 28, 2021 15:23:46 GMT
First of all, she's absolutely not limited in range. Seems like you might be limited in your view of her. I agree but she is absolutely limited in range at that "3 time winner" level she's playing at now .........like Macbeth would be a huge change-up and she may pull it off (she did it well apparently on stage) ...........but that's still to come.........and this same exact point was made in the Macbeth thread when that film was announced.......... (prior to Nomadland)....... I mean did Nomadland suddenly convince us that she has range comparable to any of those 5? I think that's what the OP meant ......
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Post by JangoB on Apr 28, 2021 15:36:18 GMT
First of all, she's absolutely not limited in range. Seems like you might be limited in your view of her. I agree but she is absolutely limited in range at that "3 time winner" level she's playing at now .........like Macbeth would be a huge change-up and she may pull it off (she did it well apparently on stage) ...........but that's still to come.........and this same exact point was made in the Macbeth thread when that film was announced.......... (prior to Nomadland)....... I mean did Nomadland suddenly convince us that she has range comparable to any of those 5? I think that's what the OP meant ...... I don't quite understand what you're talking about because, again, I do not consider her limited and see all three of her winning performances as completely different beasts. The comedy and innocence and determination of "Fargo", the bulldozer-like force and anger of "Three Billboards" and the poignancy and hopeful heartbreak of "Nomadland" (delivered mostly through wordless acting) are three different realms in my view, and are absolutely worthy of that prestigious '3 time winner' status. So I'm not looking at "Macbeth" as some sort of an upcoming proof of her range because she's already proven it to me many a time.
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Apr 28, 2021 15:44:30 GMT
1996 : Brilliant and iconic performance but both Brenda Blethyn and Emily Watson were just on another level of greatness. 2017 : Her best cinematic performance to date. She's my 1st RU in my Top 5 lineup 2020 : Once again a terrific performance but I rank Carey Mulligan (my actual winner) , Vanessa Kirby , Viola Davis and Andra Day above her . I'm OK with her winning , though (not that my opinion matters that much to the members of the Academy anyway )But I think she should have definitely won the Oscar for Mississippi Burning.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 28, 2021 15:51:31 GMT
I agree but she is absolutely limited in range at that "3 time winner" level she's playing at now .........like Macbeth would be a huge change-up and she may pull it off (she did it well apparently on stage) ...........but that's still to come.........and this same exact point was made in the Macbeth thread when that film was announced.......... (prior to Nomadland)....... I mean did Nomadland suddenly convince us that she has range comparable to any of those 5? I think that's what the OP meant ...... I don't quite understand what you're talking about because, again, I do not consider her limited and see all three of her winning performances as completely different beasts. The comedy and innocence and determination of "Fargo", the bulldozer-like force and anger of "Three Billboards" and the poignancy and hopeful heartbreak of "Nomadland" (delivered mostly through wordless acting) are three different realms in my view, and are absolutely worthy of that prestigious '3 time winner' status. So I'm not looking at "Macbeth" as some sort of an upcoming proof of her range because she's already proven it to me many a time. It's kind of a ridiculous argument. It's not as if anybody ever asked Jack Nicholson to pull off Shakespeare. I think the biggest issue some have with McDormand is that so many of her roles have been essentially thankless. She has been so often cast in character parts that don't require her to be great (but just need her to be competent, which she always is), that I think the impression many have is that she only stood out in her Oscar winning stuff (and some people don't even rate some of those performances). She just hasn't had the same type of opportunities for consistently great roles that some of these legends she is being compared to now took for granted. Her range is fine, but I can see why she seems odd as a three time winner. In the same way Hilary Swank might feel a bit odd as a two-time winner.
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Post by speeders on Apr 28, 2021 15:57:33 GMT
1996: I haven't seen most of her competition but judges on its own merit, I think it's an iconic and deserving performance and is generally thought to be so too?
2017: Easily the best of the nominees and probably my favorite win of the decade, as well as my personal win for the year. Deserved.
2020: A brilliant turn, the type the Oscars tend to ignore, and on its own a deserving win. However I do think both Mulligan and Kirby were better than her. So it's a deserving win but there were more deserving wins too, if that makes sense.
In conclusion: She was excellent and worthy in all of them, even though there were equally deserving contenders one or two of those times.
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Post by stabcaesar on Apr 28, 2021 16:01:34 GMT
1996: Both Watson and Blethyn were better. Watson should've won.
2017: Of the nominees I preferred both Robbie and Hawkins (though just marginally). Outside the Oscar nominees Pugh (Lady Macbeth) and Krieps (Phantom Thread) are my personal top 2.
2020: My favourite of her 3 wins but Mulligan should've won, and I also preferred Kirby over her.
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Post by sirchuck23 on Apr 28, 2021 16:22:19 GMT
I don't quite understand what you're talking about because, again, I do not consider her limited and see all three of her winning performances as completely different beasts. The comedy and innocence and determination of "Fargo", the bulldozer-like force and anger of "Three Billboards" and the poignancy and hopeful heartbreak of "Nomadland" (delivered mostly through wordless acting) are three different realms in my view, and are absolutely worthy of that prestigious '3 time winner' status. So I'm not looking at "Macbeth" as some sort of an upcoming proof of her range because she's already proven it to me many a time. It's kind of a ridiculous argument. It's not as if anybody ever asked Jack Nicholson to pull off Shakespeare. I think the biggest issue some have with McDormand is that so many of her roles have been essentially thankless. She has been so often cast in character parts that don't require her to be great (but just need her to be competent, which she always is), that I think the impression many have is that she only stood out in her Oscar winning stuff (and some people don't even rate some of those performances). She just hasn't had the same type of opportunities for consistently great roles that some of these legends she is being compared to now took for granted. Her range is fine, but I can see why she seems odd as a three time winner. In the same way Hilary Swank might feel a bit odd as a two-time winner. The past decade or so has been the best stretch of McDormand's career. Won a Tony Award for Best Actress in 2011 for Good People, won an Emmy in 2015 for Olive Kitteridge, and now back-to-back Oscars in 2017 and 2021 so she's at the peak of her powers right now, and she's making things happen for her own career (producing/developing her own projects) instead of waiting on the occasional Joel Coen role for her. She's a force right now and with MacBeth coming out this year, shows no signs of slowing down.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 28, 2021 17:22:23 GMT
I agree but she is absolutely limited in range at that "3 time winner" level she's playing at now .........like Macbeth would be a huge change-up and she may pull it off (she did it well apparently on stage) ...........but that's still to come.........and this same exact point was made in the Macbeth thread when that film was announced.......... (prior to Nomadland)....... I mean did Nomadland suddenly convince us that she has range comparable to any of those 5? I think that's what the OP meant ...... I don't quite understand what you're talking about because, again, I do not consider her limited and see all three of her winning performances as completely different beasts. Fair enough - like I said I agree with you in the general sense but not relative to those 5 that she shares a stat with .......I'm a big fan - but franklin's point is a valid one - in that it's not an unheard of criticism of her in the general sense - like I said - it came up on this board in the Macbeth thread - it's come up irl.......I mean people are clutching their pearls (not you) at the criticism - you can call it valid or invalid but it does come up irl........
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Post by countjohn on Apr 28, 2021 17:28:43 GMT
I will say no. I'd just give her one for Fargo. She had no business beating Robbie, Krieps (who wasn't even nominated), or Ronan in 17, none of whom had ever won. That was a very good year for actress, she debatably didn't even deserve a nod. I wasn't crazy about Nomadland but I'd still put her runner up to Davis this year so that wasn't as egregious.
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Post by JangoB on Apr 28, 2021 17:40:13 GMT
I don't quite understand what you're talking about because, again, I do not consider her limited and see all three of her winning performances as completely different beasts. Fair enough _ like I said I agree with you in the general sense but not relative to those 5 that she shares a stat with .......I'm a big fan - but franklin's point is a valid one - in that it's not an unheard of criticism of her in the general sense - like I said - it came up on this board in the Macbeth thread - it's come up irl.......I mean people are clutching their pearls (not you) at the criticism - you can call it valid or invalid but it does come up irl........ I actually think McDormand's three winning performances are far more varied than Nicholson's or Bergman's, for instance. Although if we're talking about careers in general, that's a whole other deal. It's interesting to witness this McDormand 3-time thing happening right now with our own eyes - someone like the OP may think that she's not deserving of this amount because she's not an all-time performer in their eyes, but none of us now how she's gonna be perceived in the future (which is a key factor in determining who's an all-timer or not). I can picture many many years from now some descendants of ours sitting on "Movie Awards Dux Dux Redudux" and making yet another one of those 'Who was the GOAT' threads and McDormand coming up time and time again because by then she'll already be firmly established and remembered as a 3-time acting winner (like how we look at Bergman because none of us saw her wins happen in real time, except maybe for you, pacinoyes!) which will make her easier to perceive as an all-timer as opposed to how we're processing it right here when this moment is happening.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 28, 2021 18:54:42 GMT
Fair enough _ like I said I agree with you in the general sense but not relative to those 5 that she shares a stat with .......I'm a big fan - but franklin's point is a valid one - in that it's not an unheard of criticism of her in the general sense - like I said - it came up on this board in the Macbeth thread - it's come up irl.......I mean people are clutching their pearls (not you) at the criticism - you can call it valid or invalid but it does come up irl........ I can picture many many years from now some descendants of ours sitting on "Movie Awards Dux Dux Redudux" and making yet another one of those 'Who was the GOAT' threads and McDormand coming up time and time again because by then she'll already be firmly established and remembered as a 3-time acting winner (like how we look at Bergman because none of us saw her wins happen in real time, except maybe for you, pacinoyes!) which will make her easier to perceive as an all-timer as opposed to how we're processing it right here when this moment is happening. indeed although I don't know what "descendants of ours" you're talking about because I'm good on here for at least another 1,000 years. I actually died in 1966 but was brought back to life and cloned by a kindly scientist. There are currently 47 people who are pacinoyes on MAR which is why I cover the board so well and am always youthful enough to quote Nas and baffle the less musically astute. Agree on "processing McDormand" in the moment - I think a triumph as Lady Macbeth will be something major to process only months removed from her 3rd win - I mean it could play Cannes so it may be REALLY close. I actually wish I saw the version of the play she did it in - but I think it was in California only so that was out. I know the film does not follow that version "exactly" but just to compare and contrast would have been cool.......
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Post by franklin on May 3, 2021 12:31:33 GMT
Just wanted to end this thread by saying that McDormand managed to have a great career despite her limited range and skills only because she got married well with Joel Coen.
That's it, those three wins won't age greatly (especially Three Billboards), and no, future generations won't look at her in retrospect as an all timer performer deserving of three wins like Ingrid Bergman (trying to compare her with Bergman is insane btw), but more like a female Walter Brennan, someone who's just there and forgotten by history.
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