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Post by quetee on Jan 9, 2021 20:27:08 GMT
While I agree that Twitter banning Trump is a good thing, I do wish they had been able to wait until Jan 20th (or had done it weeks ago). The events in DC proved that impossible and with all the heat facing Trump right now from both sides of the aisle a Twitter ban just seems like the cherry on top.... but... and I say this knowing that Trump supporters would complain no matter the circumstances, but... those last two tweets were benign by Trump standards and I worry that that will give credence to narratives about Big Tech cracking down on "conservative" free speech. The nuance makes the decision reasonable (Trump is hardly the first to be banned for violating the policy), but anyone looking just at those two tweets is gonna be thinking "he was banned for THAT?" And that wouldn't be an unreasonable reaction. The tweets were benign. Frankly I'm just glad he's gone, but I wish they had done it weeks ago after he consistently posted what, like over 1000+ inflammatory & flagged messages about the election being stolen. It almost feels anticlimactic that the tweet he finally gets banned for is a soft concession and an innocuous passing remark about the inauguration (which made me feel better when I saw it, because Trump belongs nowhere near that ceremony). Doesn't feel like the strongest position for Twitter. at first glance maybe it looks harmless but I think a lot of it has to do with things they see going on behind the scenes. There are plans for another attack on either the 17th, 18th or 20th and Twitter does not want Trump to command his cult. By announcing that he was not going to be present pretty much gave people a heads up that he would be out of harms way and they could cause as much damage as possible. His cult reads into EVERYTHING. Besides, Trump is uncontrollable right now. He isn't even acting as the president. He is more consumed by his failed coup attempt and his impending impeachment. He doesn't care what is going on right now, he is in I need to win by any means necessary mode. And when someone had gone to that level, you have to cut them off for the safety of the public.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jan 9, 2021 20:33:03 GMT
If you have something to say then say it. Nobody has time for codespeak. It's the old "slippery slope" fallacy. In the past, it was if you make homosexuality legal, it's a slippery slope to pedophilia and bestiality. Now it's if you ban a guy from Twitter for deliberately inciting violence in an attempt to overthrow the government and end democracy, it's a slippery slope until you ban anyone for merely stating their opinions, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's not a slippery slope, it's a matter of perception. Twitter/Facebook are creating a perception that they will squash any opposition to their "agenda." And if enough people "perceive" a thing to be true, the facts don't matter. These moves will cause rapid radicalization.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Jan 9, 2021 20:36:06 GMT
If you think it’s a bridge too far to ban someone from a private social media platform for fomenting a coup, I really don’t know what to say.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jan 9, 2021 20:57:18 GMT
If you think it’s a bridge too far to ban someone from a private social media platform for fomenting a coup, I really don’t know what to say. It's how they're going about it, as I said. If they had done this earlier and been very clear about how their guidelines were being violated, the backlash wouldn't be so heavy. But their opponents will run with this (I have heard so many completely insane conspiracy theories in the past few days) because they are only doing something now, when his tweets are not at all nuts... by his standards, anyway. They are creating two sides of extremists by doing this.
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Post by quetee on Jan 9, 2021 21:14:02 GMT
It's the old "slippery slope" fallacy. In the past, it was if you make homosexuality legal, it's a slippery slope to pedophilia and bestiality. Now it's if you ban a guy from Twitter for deliberately inciting violence in an attempt to overthrow the government and end democracy, it's a slippery slope until you ban anyone for merely stating their opinions, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's not a slippery slope, it's a matter of perception. Twitter/Facebook are creating a perception that they will squash any opposition to their "agenda." And if enough people "perceive" a thing to be true, the facts don't matter. These moves will cause rapid radicalization. They are also private companies and they can refuse service to anyone.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jan 9, 2021 21:15:40 GMT
It's not a slippery slope, it's a matter of perception. Twitter/Facebook are creating a perception that they will squash any opposition to their "agenda." And if enough people "perceive" a thing to be true, the facts don't matter. These moves will cause rapid radicalization. They are also private companies and they can refuse service to anyone. That is true, but they are also de facto monopolies. If they had used their power earlier, they could have. But doing it now looks really ugly.
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Jan 9, 2021 21:34:23 GMT
It's the old "slippery slope" fallacy. In the past, it was if you make homosexuality legal, it's a slippery slope to pedophilia and bestiality. Now it's if you ban a guy from Twitter for deliberately inciting violence in an attempt to overthrow the government and end democracy, it's a slippery slope until you ban anyone for merely stating their opinions, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's not a slippery slope, it's a matter of perception. Twitter/Facebook are creating a perception that they will squash any opposition to their "agenda." And if enough people "perceive" a thing to be true, the facts don't matter. These moves will cause rapid radicalization. Yeah, because clearly the fact that Trump supporters attempted to overthrow the government violently isn't rapid radicalization
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Post by Martin Stett on Jan 9, 2021 21:38:00 GMT
It's not a slippery slope, it's a matter of perception. Twitter/Facebook are creating a perception that they will squash any opposition to their "agenda." And if enough people "perceive" a thing to be true, the facts don't matter. These moves will cause rapid radicalization. Yeah, because clearly the fact that Trump supporters attempted to overthrow the government violently isn't rapid radicalization What were they going to do? Take over the building and spit all over it? The same thing happened in Seattle. It is evil both ways.
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Jan 9, 2021 21:56:10 GMT
Yeah, because clearly the fact that Trump supporters attempted to overthrow the government violently isn't rapid radicalization What were they going to do? Take over the building and spit all over it? The same thing happened in Seattle. It is evil both ways. You gotta ask them. The fact is they clearly and undeniably used violence to try to stop the certification of the vote and possibly overturn the results of the election, and people have died because of it. And if they managed to find someone like Pelosi or some other famous Democrat there, it's pretty clear they very seriously at risk. And yet it's Twitter banning Trump that will cause rapid radicalization
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Post by Film Socialism on Jan 9, 2021 21:58:20 GMT
big tech has been squashing people of many political persuasions since the concept of big tech existed. nothing in the last week has changed that. twitter/fb/etc could have actually done this years ago, the fact that they finally did it now isn't really a breaking point when it was something that we could have feasibly woken up to on any day of the last 5 years.
the way they're reacting to it is indicative of how americans at large are reacting to it, which is that this is the worst thing trump has done. he's commissioned violent coups in other countries, yet there's a distancing effect there and people can choose to look away and not reckon with it. but i hope the people on here are smarter than that and know that what he did this week is something american presidents have been doing for decades if not centuries in other countries - way more successfully too.
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Post by quetee on Jan 9, 2021 22:05:52 GMT
They are also private companies and they can refuse service to anyone. That is true, but they are also de facto monopolies. If they had used their power earlier, they could have. But doing it now looks really ugly. Trump got a pass because he's president of the united states. That's it. No other reason. If anyone else tried that crap they would have been done. A lot of people are complicit in that regard especially the republican party. They allowed Trump to get away with a lot of things because he's the president and because I believe they thought he would not push it too far. Everyone who predicated this outcome was called crazy, no he wouldn't do that. Well... surprise... surprise.
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Post by Film Socialism on Jan 9, 2021 22:06:52 GMT
Yeah, because clearly the fact that Trump supporters attempted to overthrow the government violently isn't rapid radicalization What were they going to do? Take over the building and spit all over it? The same thing happened in Seattle. It is evil both ways. i think there's a huge disconnect between the liberal response of the protests of the last year and the reality of things - in how it attempts to whitewash the events of the summer and portray the recent coup attempt as something that wasn't at least somewhat organized by the federal government. there was tons of violence over last summer, much of it was perpetrated against innocents by cops, but yes there was a good deal that was attempting to attack state apparatus. and while the two groups of protesters both were, on paper, doing similar things at times (attacking government buildings, workers, and protectors of those buildings), i really think you have to look at the ideological drive between these parties. violence, terrorism, and revolution are neutral words; they can enact positive or negative change. seattle protests were filled with a bunch of people there for woke points, but you cannot reasonably look at that group attacking government buildings and the group last week attacking government buildings and saying "these are both the same thing," though liberals might try to convince you of that since violence is something that must be only done implicitly in liberal ideology.
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Post by quetee on Jan 9, 2021 22:07:24 GMT
Yeah, because clearly the fact that Trump supporters attempted to overthrow the government violently isn't rapid radicalization What were they going to do? Take over the building and spit all over it? The same thing happened in Seattle. It is evil both ways. People with zip ties were not there to just spit on a building.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Jan 9, 2021 22:21:51 GMT
What were they going to do? Take over the building and spit all over it? The same thing happened in Seattle. It is evil both ways. People with zip ties were not there to just spit on a building. And let's not forget the um... IEDs that were found on the Capitol grounds....
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Post by Joaquim on Jan 9, 2021 22:25:04 GMT
It's the old "slippery slope" fallacy. In the past, it was if you make homosexuality legal, it's a slippery slope to pedophilia and bestiality. Now it's if you ban a guy from Twitter for deliberately inciting violence in an attempt to overthrow the government and end democracy, it's a slippery slope until you ban anyone for merely stating their opinions, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's not a slippery slope, it's a matter of perception. Twitter/Facebook are creating a perception that they will squash any opposition to their "agenda." And if enough people "perceive" a thing to be true, the facts don't matter. These moves will cause rapid radicalization. It’s the tech oligarchs and the elites consolidating power and with the dems in control of the senate, house and White House it will continue to expand. This is the real coup. Patriot act 2 is coming to combat “domestic terrorism” before it can arise and they’re just using trump as a cover to make it acceptable to the public. No one can deny that Trump had the ban coming, so that right there provides the cover they need. Thousands of other Twitter accounts got purged along with trump too. The people at the capital are being doxxed and fired from their jobs, even the ones who didn’t storm the building. I saw a young woman dox her own mother on Twitter and got her fired from her job for being in dc. That shit is straight out of the Soviet playbook. Stop doxxing people. Stop suggesting blocking off access to credit or other financial services to trump supporters. This is going to ruin lives and then you’re piling on how hyperinflation and the crash of the dollar will affect them bc these politicians are going to print the currency into oblivion. Those $2000 checks dems want to send to everyone will eventually be WORTHLESS. All these people you are marginalizing are going to end up pissed off and with nothing to lose. And that is how you get a real insurrection, revolution, whatever you want to call it. Leave the masses you’ve marginalized with nothing to lose. Of course you can always throw them in re-education camps to make sure it doesn’t happen which would probably be the plan under someone like AOC who is a legitimately psychopathic person, something I can’t even say about Hillary Clinton and all of you know exactly how I feel about that witch. We are going down a very dark path, even if the worst possibilities don’t materialize, it’s still a dark path but it’s probably not worth the effort to try to explain this to you guys. You can find out the hard way. Just know that we have reached the point where anything goes now, from either side. Nothing is off the table now. Slippery slope, anyone gets banned for having the wrong opinion? You’re only looking at this from the social media angle, you’re not looking at the big picture. This isn’t about getting banned from some shitty social media site. I’ve been saying it for years and I will say it again. Trump is not the boogeyman, nor was he ever. It’s what comes next
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jan 9, 2021 22:41:19 GMT
I do worry about the perception of overcompensation. It's such a tricky situation. Dems and GOPs alike were furious on Wednesday but Dems being so quick to point fingers at GOPs (even though it's 100% deserved) engenders defensiveness. That's just human nature. And it's why so many Republicans by Saturday seem to have largely "gotten over" the chaos that happened on Wednesday. Because defending themselves through deflection and whataboutism is more important than condemning a violent insurrection that in the moment, most people (including many in those protests who were peaceful and didn't go anywhere near the Capitol) decried as shameful.
That to me is an objective, outside perspective. I don't know where we go from there. But pointing fingers isn't going to reduce radicalization. The fact that this event hasn't brought these people "back to Jesus" just is further disturbing evidence that Trump was right when he jokingly said he could shoot someone and wouldn't lose support for it. Several of the people close to him, the ones who've worked with him and know him professionally, have already turned on him. But the distance between Trump and his followers is so great and the media spin (and institutional isolation) in between so powerful that many of his followers will always stay loyal because they need to, because it's a cult. That's why you haven't seen a blanket disavowal by the GOP yet, and you never will even though likely at least half of them have probably been disgusted with his actions and rhetoric these past few days. But they're not gonna impeach him. And they're going to use Dems' rhetoric to deflect and keep building those walls higher and higher. Even without Twitter, Trump still has power and influence. He embodies the extreme partisanship that defines our political moment and it's not going away. Not even a catastrophically historical insurrectionist invasion of the Capitol building (or Twitter ban) can change that in a radical way. That terrifies me.
I have to believe that Trump has fractured the GOP but I'm not even sure that's true anymore because these lawmakers condemned violence but practically none of them have condemned him because they can't risk alienating his base. And as long as they can keep using dogwhisles about fraud or socialism or scary black people, they can keep most of these people engaged. Will it be enough to retain substantial electoral power? Time will tell. But I don't think one single event that most Republicans have already gotten past is going to change all that much in the long run. Angry white people are still terrified of losing preeminence.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jan 9, 2021 22:51:13 GMT
Impeaching Trump gives Republicans something to rally around. The ball is really in their court here. What Trump did was 100% impeachable but Republicans are never going to go for that because it's their political power at stake, and so just like in 2019 it will be a unifying moment for them and not a fracturing one. Not to the same extent as last year because Trump really did go beyond the pale and some Republicans know that (but so far only the moderate minority), but the difference is going to be negligible. Count on that.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jan 9, 2021 22:56:17 GMT
also want to reiterate that Republicans were more sympathetic towards George Floyd's death and for longer than they are now to a violent insurrection at the capitol inspired by Donald Trump. That's where we are.
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Post by flasuss on Jan 10, 2021 1:12:10 GMT
Again, if participating in a violent attack on the US capitol while they certifying the results of the election, that leads to multiple deaths, including police officers, is not something that justifies people getting fired from their jobs or blocked on Twitter, what the fuck is?
And really, I want you to tell me with a straight face that if those protesters ran into Pelosi or Ocasio-Cortez inside the building, they would not be murdered, raped, or both. You just can't.
This "slippery slope", "afraid of overreactions" bullshit enables these people. And serves as an example for other leaders worldwide- here in Brazil Bolsonaro is already saying that if he loses reelection in 2022, is because of fraud and hinting he'll try something similar, and there's certainly other leaders around the world thinking the same- that if Trump can get away with this in the US, not succeeding, but at least not suffering any consequence, why can't I in a younger democracy can't do the same?
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Post by quetee on Jan 10, 2021 20:01:41 GMT
Again, if participating in a violent attack on the US capitol while they certifying the results of the election, that leads to multiple deaths, including police officers, is not something that justifies people getting fired from their jobs or blocked on Twitter, what the fuck is? And really, I want you to tell me with a straight face that if those protesters ran into Pelosi or Ocasio-Cortez inside the building, they would not be murdered, raped, or both. You just can't. This "slippery slope", "afraid of overreactions" bullshit enables these people. And serves as an example for other leaders worldwide- here in Brazil Bolsonaro is already saying that if he loses reelection in 2022, is because of fraud and hinting he'll try something similar, and there's certainly other leaders around the world thinking the same- that if Trump can get away with this in the US, not succeeding, but at least not suffering any consequence, why can't I in a younger democracy can't do the same? They arrested some guy who said via text that he was going to place a bullet in Nancy's head live on TV.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jan 10, 2021 20:05:18 GMT
By the way, 1) Pence is going to the inauguration which is good, and 2) Pence and Trump haven't spoken even once since Wednesday. Trump never once checked up on his safety. The mob was yelling to hang Pence and chanted "WHERE IS PENCE! WHERE IS PENCE" and Trump never checked on him.
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Post by quetee on Jan 10, 2021 20:17:41 GMT
By the way, 1) Pence is going to the inauguration which is good, and 2) Pence and Trump haven't spoken even once since Wednesday. Trump never once checked up on his safety. The mob was yelling to hang Pence and chanted "WHERE IS PENCE! WHERE IS PENCE" and Trump never checked on him. The fact that Trump was watching everything go down on TV and knew Pence, his wife and daughter were there is telling. Trump knew what his cult had in store for him.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Jan 10, 2021 23:28:17 GMT
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flasuss
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Post by flasuss on Jan 10, 2021 23:43:30 GMT
One would think Joe Pesci would be the first to achieve that landmark...
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Post by quetee on Jan 11, 2021 0:53:23 GMT
Trump has been banned from nearly every mainstream site. The PGA even banned him from holding the PGA Championship at his golf club. He's screwed. He can't even accept money for his campaign because Stripe cut him off.
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