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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 3, 2020 12:06:15 GMT
Brando of course usually is often regarded as "the" greatest actor in English and if not, at least the most influential American.... ............but Brando only did a few comedies - one of which was lauded in its day but maybe is not so much now (the caricature Teahouse of the August Moon which was a critical/commerical hit /Golden Globe nodded here) and some others I like ( The Freshman) and ( Don Juan DeMarco) but that are fairly minor as films and which he appears in a minor comic way really. For the most part in his less than 40 films he had noticeable comedic flops where his performances where criticized explicitly: A Countess From Hong Kong and Bedtime Story etc. (though some defend these) but without an offsetting "big" comic performance film really - similar to what I often argue as a relative weakness for some big actors Day-Lewis, Washington, Duvall compared to their peers etc. Richard Harris flat out said in this interview below (@50 seconds in) - without even being asked! - that he doesn't think Brando was good at comedy though he praises him in every other way. What sayeth thee MAR? Does Brando get a pass for this too much or is he so great/influential it really doesn't matter? He could do it, or he couldn't ......not really allowing an other option - take a stand dammit! Comments welcome....
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Post by stephen on Nov 3, 2020 14:12:04 GMT
The Missouri Breaks is proof enough: the man could do comedy.
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Post by TerryMontana on Nov 3, 2020 17:09:21 GMT
Imo he did show his comic talent in some of his films. Not talking about stupid comedies like The Freshman in which he just spoofed his Vito persona (and wasn't even funny...)
I'm talking about movies like The Missouri Breaks, Guys and Dolls (I think Sinatra was much funnier but Marlon also did a good job in quite a few scenes) and especially Bedtime Story. This was a pure comedy and Brando was hilarious in it.
Not saying he could have been a contender great comedian but he certainly could be funny in his films.
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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 6, 2020 13:57:37 GMT
One bump - Just 15 votes? Too low......6 Yes, 9 No........ so far.......
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Post by MsMovieStar on Nov 7, 2020 13:40:47 GMT
Oh honey, I've heard he didn't like fat jokes.
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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 7, 2020 16:20:39 GMT
What's a little odd about Brando and comedy is that his main 50s rival - Montgomery Clift in his mere 17 movies never even attempted a comedy.....so I think that's the only generation where you could argue that neither the 2 best actors of their generation never conquered comedy (although again, that's arguable with Brando at the very least).
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Post by MsMovieStar on Nov 7, 2020 18:53:05 GMT
What's a little odd about Brando and comedy is that his main 50s rival - Montgomery Clift in his mere 17 movies never even attempted a comedy.....so I think that's the only generation where you could argue that neither the 2 best actors of their generation never conquered comedy (although again, that's arguable with Brando at the very least). _ Oh honey, this was a bit of a revelation for me, but according to Jack Larson, who was Clift's boyfriend for a while, offscreen Monty's personality was a lot like Jerry Lewis' and he liked nothing more than joking around or playing practical jokes on people. Now that you bring it up, it is unusual that Clift didn't play comedy. Personally, I think it was due to the snobbery at the time as well as Clift was really fussy and picky about projects. I think comics were still associated with Vaudeville. I'm thinking Abbott and Costello, who started out in a Burlesque theatre. Clift joking around with Liz Taylor below:-
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Post by TerryMontana on Nov 7, 2020 18:56:55 GMT
What's a little odd about Brando and comedy is that his main 50s rival - Montgomery Clift in his mere 17 movies never even attempted a comedy.....so I think that's the only generation where you could argue that neither the 2 best actors of their generation never conquered comedy (although again, that's arguable with Brando at the very least). Talking about great actors of that era, did Paul Scofield ever try comedy? I'm not very familiar with his filmography but I kind of doubt.
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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 7, 2020 19:14:42 GMT
What's a little odd about Brando and comedy is that his main 50s rival - Montgomery Clift in his mere 17 movies never even attempted a comedy.....so I think that's the only generation where you could argue that neither the 2 best actors of their generation never conquered comedy (although again, that's arguable with Brando at the very least).\ Talking about great actors of that era, did Paul Scofield ever try comedy?
I'm not very familiar with his filmography but I kind of doubt. I do not believe so (on film) I've never seen it if he did but I didn't see all his work.......Scofield is one of those people to me like Liv Ullman who I'm sure did comedy but I still can't picture "being funny" ........although she's one of the greatest actresses of all-time anyway. Scofield, Clift and Day-Lewis all guys who get that "but could they do comedy" thing a lot ........all were guys who only made ~20 total films or less....... Paul Muni is another (just 23 films iirc) and got the same criticism even though like the other 3 he got a lot of acclaim too.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Nov 7, 2020 19:54:41 GMT
Talking about great actors of that era, did Paul Scofield ever try comedy?
I'm not very familiar with his filmography but I kind of doubt. I do not believe so (on film) I've never seen it if he did but I didn't see all his work.......Scofield is one of those people to me like Liv Ullman who I'm sure did comedy but I still can't picture "being funny" ........although she's one of the greatest actresses of all-time anyway. Scofield, Clift and Day-Lewis all guys who get that "but could they do comedy" thing a lot ........all were guys who only made ~20 total films or less....... Paul Muni is another (just 23 films iirc) and got the same criticism even though like the other 3 he got a lot of acclaim too. Well, Daniel Day Lewis has A room with a view at least.
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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 7, 2020 20:16:14 GMT
I do not believe so (on film) I've never seen it if he did but I didn't see all his work.......Scofield is one of those people to me like Liv Ullman who I'm sure did comedy but I still can't picture "being funny" ........although she's one of the greatest actresses of all-time anyway. Scofield, Clift and Day-Lewis all guys who get that "but could they do comedy" thing a lot ........all were guys who only made ~20 total films or less....... Paul Muni is another (just 23 films iirc) and got the same criticism even though like the other 3 he got a lot of acclaim too. Well, Daniel Day Lewis has A room with a view at least. Indeed .......and he has some comic work within dramas I'd argue too (and of course tried it in 2 comic failed leads too - Stars and Bars and Eversmile, NJ). To me DDL is closest to Brando in assessing the comedy work - he has his defenders like Brando does and his failures without a big "lead" comic success............where Scofield/Muni/Clift are more extreme in that they don't have a record of attempting it or dramatic roles that also lend themselves to allowing much comedy (like Phantom Thread etc) Duvall and Washington - mentioned in the OP - are a whole other thing where they have made a ton of movies and not had too much comic success (M*A*S*H for Duvall) but both were sometimes funny within dramas (Training Day for Washington etc.) ............... and Duvall is like Clift/Brando in that he's a famous practical joker irl who's lack of big comedies just seems is a little bit odd.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Nov 7, 2020 20:20:24 GMT
Well, Daniel Day Lewis has A room with a view at least. Indeed .......and he has some comic work within dramas I'd argue too (and of course tried it in 2 comic failed leads too - Stars and Bars and Eversmile, NJ). To me DDL is closest to Brando in assessing the comedy work - he has his defenders like Brando does and his failures without a big "lead" comic success............where Scofield/Muni/Clift are more extreme in that they don't have a record of attempting it or dramatic roles that also lend themselves to allowing much comedy (like Phantom Thread etc) Duvall and Washington - mentioned in the OP - are a whole other thing where they have made a ton of movies and not had too much comic success (M*A*S*H for Duvall) but both were sometimes funny within dramas (Training Day for Washington etc.) ............... and Duvall is like Clift/Brando in that he's a famous practical joker irl who's lack of big comedies just seems is a little bit odd. I often see Something to talk about with Duvall on TV... He surely has comedy skills.
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Post by pupdurcs on Nov 7, 2020 21:06:08 GMT
Hmm... 3 years ago, The BFI (British Film Institute) curated a list of what they regarded as 10 Essential Denzel Washington Films and in their top 10 was The Preacher's Wife....a comedy. I guess the BFI consider it a success. Their write-up: "This remake of the 1947 film The Bishops Wife is one of Washington's only "comedies"(and certainly his only straight romantic comedy). Alongside the late Whitney Houston (subbed in for Loretta Young), Washington steps into Cary Grant's shoes as Dudley, a literal angel sent to help an inner city pastor regain his faith. It's a little corny (it's a Christmas movie after all, but cute too, watching Washington horse around with Houston on an outdoor ice rink"www2.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/lists/denzel-washington-10-essential-filmsHe hasn't done many comedies, but by most metrics (solid reviews, good box office) The Preacher's Wife was a significant comedic success for him (as the BFI noted), and the comparisons to Cary Grant were mostly in his favor (which is no small thing considering Grant is widely regarded as the greatest romantic comedy leading man of all time). He's actually a natural in the romantic comedy genre, just based on that one film. I guess he didn't do more because it's not especially challenging for him to flash his smile and be witty and charming in rom-coms. Overdoing that stuff nearly ruined Matthew McConaughey's career. As for Brando...Guys And Dolls is a comedy (and a musical) and he is terrific in that. So yes, he could do comedy. He might have missed the mark on other occasions, but not there.
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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 7, 2020 21:39:48 GMT
While we can find a comedy some people liked or thought was "pretty good" for any actor - to be the GOAT you would think you'd have a higher percentage than Brando has - that was the intent of the poll.
The difference between Brando and all the other dramatic actors with "weak" or "criticized" comic resume actors is people often do say "Denzel Washington struggles with comedy" (fair or not) - nobody really says it about Brando - except as in the Richard Harris clip......the criticism bounced off of him in his career.
I'm not sure this poll would make sense for any other actor like that really......
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Post by pupdurcs on Nov 7, 2020 21:44:48 GMT
People don't really say Washington struggles with comedy (not in any significant amounts I'm aware of). That seems like projection on your part. People do note thar he doesn't seem to do much comedy, which is surprising because he can be very funny in dramatic films. (like Inside Man) and has done well in things like The Preacher's Wife and 2 Guns.
It's not really highlighted as a big weakness, as people know Washington can be funny and has displayed comic timing. It's more like an underutilised strength.
Even the BFI write-up above said regarding Washington;
"Washington has show himself to be able to shatter the prison of his own stardom, demonstrating a remarkable range, that included romantic, neurotic and COMEDIC characters"
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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 7, 2020 21:56:58 GMT
If anything I downplay it .........or you downplay but not the point. Is it downplayed for BRANDO is the point..... Anyway 11 No to 10 Yes on the Brando poll........poll is open until the 17th www.startribune.com/watch-the-best-of-influential-actor-filmmaker-denzel-washington/572431132/?refresh=true If there’s a flaw in his résumé, it’s that he tends to be attracted exclusively to dark, R-rated material, and although he has a way with a tossed-off remark, he almost never makes comedies (starting with his debut, “Carbon Copy,” he has done three and none are very good).
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Post by pupdurcs on Nov 7, 2020 22:00:35 GMT
That article can't even get it's facts straight . He's done more than three comedies. And even the article says what I said people say...that he doesn't make many comedies, not that he can't do it. If he thinks Washington has only done 3 comedies in his career, chances are he missed some of the decent ones like The Preacher's Wife or even Much Ado About Nothing.I dunno...I feel like the BFI have slightly more credibility here.
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Post by futuretrunks on Nov 7, 2020 23:11:30 GMT
I don't think comedy is in a healthy place right now in cinema, and hasn't been for a while. It's almost entirely a low-brow affair, which wasn't the case from the 30s to the 70s. Even the few recent-ish comedies I like (Wedding Crashers, Bridesmaids, Project X, etc.) can't be seriously juxtaposed to a Sullivan's Travels, My Man Godfrey, Annie Hall (i.e. legit masterpieces). I think that has something to do with why some major actors aren't more disposed to take on comedies. We simply don't have great directors working in that mode anymore. Even Woody has become more of a dramatist and tragedian lately.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Nov 7, 2020 23:15:30 GMT
I don't think comedy is in a healthy place right now in cinema, and hasn't been for a while. It's almost entirely a low-brow affair, which wasn't the case from the 30s to the 70s. Even the few recent-ish comedies I like (Wedding Crashers, Bridesmaids, Project X, etc.) can't be seriously juxtaposed to a Sullivan's Travels, My Man Godfrey, Annie Hall (i.e. legit masterpieces). I think that has something to do with why some major actors aren't more disposed to take on comedies. We simply don't have great directors working in that mode anymore. Even Woody has become more of a dramatist and tragedian lately. I think Italian cinema is producing good comedies nowadays. I doubt they're released in the US though.
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Post by futuretrunks on Nov 7, 2020 23:19:19 GMT
I don't think comedy is in a healthy place right now in cinema, and hasn't been for a while. It's almost entirely a low-brow affair, which wasn't the case from the 30s to the 70s. Even the few recent-ish comedies I like (Wedding Crashers, Bridesmaids, Project X, etc.) can't be seriously juxtaposed to a Sullivan's Travels, My Man Godfrey, Annie Hall (i.e. legit masterpieces). I think that has something to do with why some major actors aren't more disposed to take on comedies. We simply don't have great directors working in that mode anymore. Even Woody has become more of a dramatist and tragedian lately. I think Italian cinema is producing good comedies nowadays. I doubt they're released in the US though. What are some? I'm not versed at all in recent Italian cinema or TV (I was hooked on the Gomorrah show though).
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Nov 7, 2020 23:31:34 GMT
I think Italian cinema is producing good comedies nowadays. I doubt they're released in the US though. What are some? I'm not versed at all in recent Italian cinema or TV (I was hooked on the Gomorrah show though). I'd suggest you the Smetto quando voglio franchise (3 movies), Noi e la Giulia, Nessuno mi può giudicare. Not sure foreigners could enjoy them fully, but the movies with Checco Zalone are definitely funny (not the last one imo).
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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 8, 2020 0:20:59 GMT
I don't think comedy is in a healthy place right now in cinema, and hasn't been for a while. It's almost entirely a low-brow affair, which wasn't the case from the 30s to the 70s. Even the few recent-ish comedies I like (Wedding Crashers, Bridesmaids, Project X, etc.) can't be seriously juxtaposed to a Sullivan's Travels, My Man Godfrey, Annie Hall (i.e. legit masterpieces). I think that has something to do with why some major actors aren't more disposed to take on comedies. We simply don't have great directors working in that mode anymore. Even Woody has become more of a dramatist and tragedian lately. Good observation. I think when De Niro first went and toplined comedies 99-00 - and had great success with it - it helped cement his reputation as "the" GOAT to some even though they're not "great" comic performances exactly. It's hard to assess now but in the time Analyze This and Meet The Parents were a very big deal ........that this heavy, intimidating dramatic actor had transferred his image onto comedies like that. Of course he maybe overplayed comedy later .......... but it was a pretty big deal when it happened and it got him big box-office, award consideration (Globe nods) and it opened him up to a whole new audience. If there were actually better comedies being made........he may have sustained it too which would have been a great trick for him......
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rom
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Post by rom on Nov 8, 2020 16:03:21 GMT
The Freshman is enough evidence for me.
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Post by pacinoyes on Nov 8, 2020 16:13:43 GMT
The Freshman is enough evidence for me. I always loved that he even did that movie because there's a lot of love in his performance and affection for The Godfather and he's not just lampooning it......
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Post by pupdurcs on Nov 8, 2020 17:15:17 GMT
My hot take: Comedy did more to harm to Robert DeNiro's career and reputation than any other genre. He can do it to a degree, but he severely overestimated his capability in it. To the point that younger people not fully familar with his best work see this old man mugging it up in things like Dirty Grandpa, Grudge Match and The War On Grandpa and wonder how this basic dude was ever considered one of the greatest actors of all time. He should have picked his spots and done comedy sparingly. A lot of his comedy work is so one-note, self-parodying and repetitive that it's easy to know what he'll do and very easy to give it a miss. Quantity and quality are not the same thing. I recall reading (and agreeing with) an interview Bruno Ganz gave in the mid-2000's where he partially/mostly blamed DeNiro's shift to comedy for his severe decline as an actor: emanuellevy.com/interviews/bruno-ganz-intimate-talk-8/
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