|
Post by pacinoyes on Sept 4, 2020 13:22:21 GMT
Remember that time MAR enfant terrible pacinoyes referred to Spike Lee pre-2018 as "a small time filmmaker" and then liked his own post? Legend.......ary. But 2020 is not pre-2018 people............ and now Spike Lee has an Oscar and a likely contender in 2020 too: Both directors have done a heist film .........both have done biopics on African Americans......both have cultural geographic leanings (New York for Spike, Miami/LA for Mann)................ both have had pet actors that pop up in their films and they have a big and loyal cult and maybe most importantly they can write in a very specific style. Who do you prefer? Diner coffee or Pizza shop?
|
|
|
Post by TerryMontana on Sept 4, 2020 13:36:01 GMT
I'm not a die hard fan of Lee although I like many of his movies.
Imo Mann is much better, especially in the work he's doing in his characters, mainly as a writer (background, playing off of eachother etc). I believe he's an acyors director. On the other hand, Lee focuses mainly on the story.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Sept 4, 2020 13:42:54 GMT
Nothing in common as filmmakers, but Lee has a far more impressive and varied body of work, so him.
Mann is no slouch obviously, but he ran out of ideas after Collateral, which is coming up to 16 years ago now, and hasn't done anything particularly interesting since then. He's in that Oliver Stone/Brian De Palma category of filmmakers who suddenly lost their mojo, and never seemed likely to get it back. Lee is always interesting, even when he doesn't hit the mark, and it keeps him relevant.
|
|
|
Post by therealcomicman117 on Sept 4, 2020 14:07:41 GMT
Nothing in common as filmmakers, but Lee has a far more impressive and varied body of work, so him. Mann is no slouch obviously, but he ran out of ideas after Collateral, which is coming up to 16 years ago now, and hasn't done anything particularly interesting since then. He's in that Oliver Stone/Brian De Palma category of filmmakers who suddenly lost their mojo, and never seemed likely to get it back. Lee is always interesting, even when he doesn't hit the mark, and it keeps him relevant. I agree somewhat, although to be fair Mann has made far less movies then Lee, and also is one of those filmmakers who sometimes likes to take his time inbetween projects. I'm sure he could have made more great movies if Manhunter hadn't been such a flop at the time, that he basically had to go back to TV to work on the Miami Vice Series. Lee though, is almost always a curious and interesting filmmaker to follow. He has a far more prolific body of work, and even when his movies falter, there's certainly a lot of ambition there. His movies can be on the nose for sure, but that's what I like about him as a director.
|
|
sirchuck23
Based
Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
Posts: 2,720
Likes: 4,828
|
Post by sirchuck23 on Sept 4, 2020 15:33:07 GMT
Spike Lee. More versatile, always interesting, and finds new ways to adapt and re-invent himself. His longevity in still being an exciting and interesting filmmaker isn’t an accident.
With his run starting in 2015 with Chi-Raq, Lee is having his Leeaissance culminating with a towering achievement in Da 5 Bloods imo. He’s catapulted himself back into the top tier of Hollywood filmmakers and is as exciting as he was during his 80s-90s heyday.
Michael Mann like others have said is a master of the crime genre but hasn’t had an interesting film since Collateral. Man knows how to film LA and great action but I don’t know if he’s capable of a Lee type comeback. Never say never. Always wanted him to work with Denzel though.
|
|
|
Post by countjohn on Sept 4, 2020 16:52:19 GMT
I am not a huge fan of either of these guys but I will take Lee. There are more Mann movies that I like but the ones I like from Lee I like better and he has a more distinctive style and voice. I think on the whole he's a more talented director. I also think he'd have made a better Muhammad Ali movie than Mann whereas I can't think of any Lee movies Mann would have improved.
|
|
Archie
Based
Eraserhead son or Inland Empire daughter?
Posts: 3,656
Likes: 4,357
Member is Online
|
Post by Archie on Sept 4, 2020 16:59:26 GMT
This really shouldn't be that close. Mann has six movies that are better than Lee's entire filmography.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Sept 4, 2020 18:06:12 GMT
Mann has six movies that are better than Lee's entire filmography. No, he really doesn't. And I like Mann a lot . Stylish director. He's got one masterpiece in Heat, and a bunch of very good movies. And in the last 16 years, a couple of average/mediocre ones (though I'd throw in Ali with the average).
|
|
|
Post by urbanpatrician on Sept 4, 2020 18:33:21 GMT
Actually pupdurcs, Spike Lee is the one with the one masterpiece. (Do the Right Thing)
Spike has done more movies and is probably more known to the black community. But they're both well known among film guys. But imo the only thing Spike Lee has influenced is black entertainment culture. Mann rewrote the book on moviemaking in the 90s. He headed one of the biggest artistic movements in cinema which started with Pulp Fiction in 1994...... and in 2006 while that movement was close to ending if not ended already...... Lee capped it with the fun cat-and-mouse film Inside Man, but Mann made much more fireworks with Miami Vice. Crime films were not seen in the same way before Heat, and after Miami Vice.... they began to be seen in the Mann way. And that's a testament to Mann's power on contemporary film and film culture.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Sept 4, 2020 18:43:55 GMT
Actually pupdurcs, Spike Lee is the one with the one masterpiece. (Do the Right Thing) Spike has done more movies and is probably more known to the black community. But they're both well known among film guys. But imo the only thing Spike Lee has influenced is black entertainment culture. Mann rewrote the book on moviemaking in the 90s. He headed one of the biggest artistic movements in cinema which started with Pulp Fiction in 1994...... and in 2006 while that movement was close to ending if not ended already...... Lee capped it with the fun cat-and-mouse film Inside Man, but Mann made much more fireworks with Miami Vice. Crime films were not seen in the same way before Heat, and after Miami Vice.... they began to be seen in the Mann way. And that's a testament to his Mann's influence on contemporary film culture. I admire the boldness of your hot takes, as ridiculous as some of them might be. Aim for the moon I say Your take is ridiculous, imho. Lee is considered one of the progenitors of modern independent American cinema. He not only influenced black cinema, he influenced cinema full stop. Kevin Smith outright said he owes his career as a director partly to Lee's influence. The structure of Smith's debut Clerks is based on Do The Right Thing, which Smith openly has admitted to. Many white or non-black filmmakers have credited Lee's early influence in the American independent scene of the late 80's for inspiring them. Though it happened much later in their careers, when Stephen Soderbergh was making his Che Guevera biopic, he cited Malcolm X as one of the films he used for inspiration.
|
|
|
Post by urbanpatrician on Sept 4, 2020 18:54:47 GMT
Actually pupdurcs, Spike Lee is the one with the one masterpiece. (Do the Right Thing) Spike has done more movies and is probably more known to the black community. But they're both well known among film guys. But imo the only thing Spike Lee has influenced is black entertainment culture. Mann rewrote the book on moviemaking in the 90s. He headed one of the biggest artistic movements in cinema which started with Pulp Fiction in 1994...... and in 2006 while that movement was close to ending if not ended already...... Lee capped it with the fun cat-and-mouse film Inside Man, but Mann made much more fireworks with Miami Vice. Crime films were not seen in the same way before Heat, and after Miami Vice.... they began to be seen in the Mann way. And that's a testament to his Mann's influence on contemporary film culture. I admire the boldness of your hot takes, as ridiculous as some of them might be. Aim for the moon I say Your take is ridiculous, imho. Lee is considered one of the progenitors of modern independent American cinema. He not only influenced black cinema, he influenced cinema full stop. Kevin Smith outright said he owes his career as a director partly to Lee's influence. The structure of Smith's debut Clerks is based on Do The Right Thing, which Smith openly has admitted to. Many white filmmakers have credited Lee's early influence in the American independent scene of the late 80's for inspiring them. Though it happened much later in their careers, when Stephen Soderbergh was making his Che Guevera biopic, he cited Malcolm X as one of the films he used for inspiration. Word to the wise..... please don't cite Clerks or Kevin Smith as a good thing. The late 80s independent scene is an entirely different scene than the mid 90s. That's my point. The mid-90s influenced WAY more. The late 80s was much more slight in its influence. If Clerks or Che was the only thing Spike Lee's late 80s/early 90s films influenced, case closed. Btw, Malcolm X is solid but it's essentially a straightforward biopic. Whatever Soderbergh cited as similar between Malcolm X and Che, I'm not seeing it.
|
|
|
Post by pacinoyes on Sept 4, 2020 18:56:02 GMT
I don't think Lee's best work can compare with Mann's Heat & The Insider I would call those major masterpieces and I don't toss that word around much. To me Do The Right Thing is not a masterpiece and isn't even a great film exactly - it's a near great film that blows the ending - nobody reacts like Sal reacts to having his business burned down ........it's a Scorsese rip-ff imo.......but I'm in the minority I guess - Spike doesn't end well usually for me. Up until the ending of Do The Right Thing though.......great. How about their underrated films? I rank Thief above Collateral myself.......Crooklyn above most of Spike's other stuff.
|
|
|
Post by pupdurcs on Sept 4, 2020 19:02:45 GMT
I admire the boldness of your hot takes, as ridiculous as some of them might be. Aim for the moon I say Your take is ridiculous, imho. Lee is considered one of the progenitors of modern independent American cinema. He not only influenced black cinema, he influenced cinema full stop. Kevin Smith outright said he owes his career as a director partly to Lee's influence. The structure of Smith's debut Clerks is based on Do The Right Thing, which Smith openly has admitted to. Many white filmmakers have credited Lee's early influence in the American independent scene of the late 80's for inspiring them. Though it happened much later in their careers, when Stephen Soderbergh was making his Che Guevera biopic, he cited Malcolm X as one of the films he used for inspiration. Word to the wise..... please don't cite Clerks or Kevin Smith as a good thing. The late 80s independent scene is an entirely different scene than the mid 90s. That's my point. The mid-90s influenced WAY more. The late 80s was much more slight in its influence. If Clerks or Che was the only thing Spike Lee's late 80s/early 90s films influenced, case closed. Btw, Malcolm X is solid but it's essentially a straightforward biopic. Whatever Soderbergh cited as similar between Malcolm X and Che, I'm not seeing it. Hey man, you do you. You seemed to be coinvinced you are right about mostly everything even in the face of evidence suggesting otherwise, and I can't be bothered to waste the energy neccesary trying to close the gaps in your cinematic knowledge. Especially when their is no interest in having horizons broadened. Suffice to say you are wrong. Extremely so.
|
|
|
Post by jimmalone on Sept 4, 2020 19:32:51 GMT
This really shouldn't be that close. Mann has six movies that are better than Lee's entire filmography. It's "only" Mann's Top 4 that are better than any Lee for me, but yeah obviously the meaning is the same...
|
|
|
Post by TerryMontana on Sept 4, 2020 19:41:02 GMT
I just thought it would be fun to try it:
My top 10 (roughly).
1. Heat 2. The Insider 3. Collateral 4. Malcolm X 5. Do the Right Thing 6. The Last of the Mohicans 7. 25th Hour 8. Manhunter 9. Inside Man 10. BlacKkKlansman
|
|
|
Post by jimmalone on Sept 4, 2020 19:58:25 GMT
I just thought it would be fun to try it: My top 10 (roughly). 1. Heat 2. The Insider 3. Collateral 4. Malcolm X 5. Do the Right Thing 6. The Last of the Mohicans 7. 25th Hour 8. Manhunter 9. Inside Man 10. BlacKkKlansman 1. Heat 2. Collateral 3. The Insider 4. Thief 5. 25th Hour 6. BlacKkKlansman 7. The Last of the Mohicans 8. Public Enemies 9. Inside Man
10. Do the Right Thing
Granted, Mann has the advantage that I've seen all of his 11 films, but only 6 of Lee.
|
|
|
Post by HELENA MARIA on Sept 4, 2020 20:01:45 GMT
HEAT >>>>>>>>>>>anything Lee has done this far, really
|
|
sirchuck23
Based
Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
Posts: 2,720
Likes: 4,828
|
Post by sirchuck23 on Sept 4, 2020 21:03:22 GMT
Here’s a good follow up question to this poll. Does Mann have another comeback/run in him? Or is he done at this point?
|
|
|
Post by TerryMontana on Sept 4, 2020 21:40:00 GMT
Here’s a good follow up question to this poll. Does Mann have another comeback/run in him? Or is he done at this point?
|
|
|
Post by therealcomicman117 on Sept 4, 2020 21:50:35 GMT
Here’s a good follow up question to this poll. Does Mann have another comeback/run in him? Or is he done at this point? It's an interesting question. I'd have to imagine that he's probably done for the time being, especially at his age, but I think a lot of it depends on if he get financing for his upcoming projects. Blackhat was such a disaster at the box office, and that TV Show he did HBO, Luck didn't find much success either. He's also been struggling to get projects off the ground, like that Enzo Ferrari movie he was attached to do with Christian Bale before Ford Vs. Ferrari got made (he got a executive producer credit on the film). He's seemingly unable to make a movie that doesn't at least cost 100m+, and it's became apparent that studios no long are willing to put up the money anymore. It was okay when his movies were doing well-enough, but now it's too much of an economic potentially money-losing burden. If he does make a "comeback", I'd have to imagine it would probably be something with Netflix or Amazon, and it would be a project that he would probably want to make on his own terms. I actually think he maybe has another great "crime film" in him.
|
|
|
Post by pacinoyes on Sept 4, 2020 22:32:39 GMT
Here’s a good follow up question to this poll. Does Mann have another comeback/run in him? Or is he done at this point? He's seemingly unable to make a movie that doesn't at least cost 100m+That really is the problem - he's sort of cut-off himself in a way .............but sometimes you see a movie that is unlike his usual broad style and that you think he could do in his sleep - Hard Eight for example but I guess something that small doesn't appeal to him now. I mean Michael Mann at times is a really great writer - Heat is the maybe most complex and densely layered written action crime film ever - so there's always the possibility of something smaller for him........
|
|
sirchuck23
Based
Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
Posts: 2,720
Likes: 4,828
|
Post by sirchuck23 on Sept 4, 2020 22:44:54 GMT
Here’s a good follow up question to this poll. Does Mann have another comeback/run in him? Or is he done at this point? It's an interesting question. I'd have to imagine that he's probably done for the time being, especially at his age, but I think a lot of it depends on if he get financing for his upcoming projects. Blackhat was such a disaster at the box office, and that TV Show he did HBO, Luck didn't find much success either. He's also been struggling to get projects off the ground, like that Enzo Ferrari movie he was attached to do with Christian Bale before Ford Vs. Ferrari got made (he got a executive producer credit on the film). He's seemingly unable to make a movie that doesn't at least cost 100m+, and it's became apparent that studios no long are willing to put up the money anymore. It was okay when his movies were doing well-enough, but now it's too much of an economic potentially money-losing burden. If he does make a "comeback", I'd have to imagine it would probably be something with Netflix or Amazon, and it would be a project that he would probably want to make on his own terms. I actually think he maybe has another great "crime film" in him. He might need to go the Netflix/Amazon route because they’re bidding on high profile projects with $100 million + budgets. He’ll have to get A-listers attached but he’s still a name so that could happen. But you’re right as far as studios giving him $100 mil..not gonna happen unless he can get some of his past collaborators like Will Smith and Tom Cruise. I don’t understand why he can’t seem to make a movie that doesn’t require a nine-figure budget and Scorsese is like this now as well. Guess when you have access to budgets like that is hard to go back to less.
|
|
|
Post by therealcomicman117 on Sept 4, 2020 23:29:32 GMT
It's an interesting question. I'd have to imagine that he's probably done for the time being, especially at his age, but I think a lot of it depends on if he get financing for his upcoming projects. Blackhat was such a disaster at the box office, and that TV Show he did HBO, Luck didn't find much success either. He's also been struggling to get projects off the ground, like that Enzo Ferrari movie he was attached to do with Christian Bale before Ford Vs. Ferrari got made (he got a executive producer credit on the film). He's seemingly unable to make a movie that doesn't at least cost 100m+, and it's became apparent that studios no long are willing to put up the money anymore. It was okay when his movies were doing well-enough, but now it's too much of an economic potentially money-losing burden. If he does make a "comeback", I'd have to imagine it would probably be something with Netflix or Amazon, and it would be a project that he would probably want to make on his own terms. I actually think he maybe has another great "crime film" in him. He might need to go the Netflix/Amazon route because they’re bidding on high profile projects with $100 million + budgets. He’ll have to get A-listers attached but he’s still a name so that could happen. But you’re right as far as studios giving him $100 mil..not gonna happen unless he can get some of his past collaborators like Will Smith and Tom Cruise. I don’t understand why he can’t seem to make a movie that doesn’t require a nine-figure budget and Scorsese is like this now as well. Guess when you have access to budgets like that is hard to go back to less. I think Mann is just too ambitious for his own good. I'm sure if he tried he could make a smaller movie, but like Pacinoeyes alluded to, he's a bit trapped. He's always been about pushing forward cool or cutting-edge film techniques, and it's kinda started to be a detriment to him. For example there's no reason that Miami Vice should have had a 135m! budget. I genuinely wonder what a smaller scale or less "produced" Mann movie would look like now. It's been a while.
|
|
sirchuck23
Based
Bad news dawg...you don't mind if I have some of your 300 dollar a glass shit there would ya?
Posts: 2,720
Likes: 4,828
|
Post by sirchuck23 on Sept 5, 2020 0:14:23 GMT
He might need to go the Netflix/Amazon route because they’re bidding on high profile projects with $100 million + budgets. He’ll have to get A-listers attached but he’s still a name so that could happen. But you’re right as far as studios giving him $100 mil..not gonna happen unless he can get some of his past collaborators like Will Smith and Tom Cruise. I don’t understand why he can’t seem to make a movie that doesn’t require a nine-figure budget and Scorsese is like this now as well. Guess when you have access to budgets like that is hard to go back to less. I think Mann is just too ambitious for his own good. I'm sure if he tried he could make a smaller movie, but like Pacinoeyes alluded to, he's a bit trapped. He's always been about pushing forward cool or cutting-edge film techniques, and it's kinda started to be a detriment to him. For example there's no reason that Miami Vice should have had a 135m! budget. I genuinely wonder what a smaller scale or less "produced" Mann movie would look like now. It's been a while. Yep. You see people are saying the same thing about Christopher Nolan now with the reviews of Tenet, about wishing he would go back to smaller films like Memento because he keeps trying to raise the ante in his films in scope, ambition, and budget and it’s hard to keep coming up with original, blockbuster/event type movies with those $100 mil-$200 mil budgets. Even Spielberg did “smaller” movies from time to time.
|
|
futuretrunks
Based
Posts: 3,204
Likes: 1,426
Member is Online
|
Post by futuretrunks on Sept 5, 2020 0:23:52 GMT
Mann, who is simultaneously over and underrated. His best film (The Insider) is better than every Spike Lee film, he's directly influenced filmmaking form more, and he's more consistently good. If Spike had one or two more 25th Hours, this would be a tougher decision.
|
|