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Post by mattfincher on Jun 24, 2020 1:21:22 GMT
No idea how Gibson's PR team didn't stop him from calling Ryder a liar. Even if on the off chance he didn't say it, literally no one is giving him the benefit of the doubt in this matter (well, maybe nobody except pacinoyes).
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 24, 2020 1:37:41 GMT
No idea how Gibson's PR team didn't stop him from calling Ryder a liar. Even if on the off chance he didn't say it, literally no one is giving him the benefit of the doubt in this matter (well, maybe nobody except pacinoyes). Oh I'm sure by Thursday Twitter will be on to the next one............gotta keep the blood thirsty mob well fed after all
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Jun 24, 2020 1:43:47 GMT
So....
1. Winona was asked specifically if she ever experienced anti-semitism and replied with this story. She wasn’t going out of her way to dig up something old to slander Gibson. This obviously stuck with her. 2. Gibson obviously made this statement 3. Gibson should not have responded at all unless it was to admit he made problematic statements in his past when he drank heavily 4. I’m not a fan of ‘cancel culture’ but do feel people need to be held more accountable for their actions. Sometimes that accountability is getting fired, taking a forced hiatus, or facing legal action 5. People have a right not to forgive Gibson and he had a right to try to revive his career. It will play out how it plays out.
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Post by idioticbunny on Jun 24, 2020 1:46:44 GMT
This is only slightly related to Gibson, but generally just for anyone against "cancel culture" - please help me understand something:
Are you telling me that you would rather be on the side of the accused suspect rather than the victim? I mean, just think for a second about if they turn out to be convicted or proven guilty (like Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Jeffrey Epstein, and many others). Is that still the hill you want to die on?
It's much easier, especially since you yourself are not the accuser, to change course/apologize if needed when it turns out the accusation had no basis in fact. It's another story entirely when it's proven true.
No one is asking you to stop watching Chinatown or stop listening to "Thriller" (two things I love by the way); they're only asking you to listen to victims, who (if true) have already lived through a traumatic or hurtful experience and are now coming forward prepared to relive their own trauma/pain again, and stop contributing to their alleged abuser's celebrity/clout by coming to their defense.
(By the way, Mel Gibson only apologized (sort of) back in 2006 [which wasn't there a film he made that came out that year...?] after the DUI incident and went to rehab. Since then, he has yet to apologize for any such incidents and even doubled down on his "victimization" of being recorded by his spouse who only did it to prove his physical/verbal abuse toward her. Winona Ryder even stated that, with the incident in question here, Gibson attempted to reach out to apologize, but Gibson and his publicist backed down from that to say he didn't and actually only tried to reach out to "confront her about her lies". All he had to do was apologize or confirm he tried to apologize and apologize publicly. Instead, he consistently doubles down and plays the victim. I don't even know why anyone is still defending him. You can still watch Braveheart and love it; you can appreciate his vision as a director, or his artistry as a performer; but it doesn't mean you need to love the man too. And that's what I don't quite understand about people rushing to his defense and I'd really like to understand that idea.)
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 24, 2020 2:11:29 GMT
No one is asking you to stop watching Chinatown or stop listening to "Thriller" (two things I love by the way); they're only asking you to listen to victims, who (if true) have already lived through a traumatic or hurtful experience and are now coming forward prepared to relive their own trauma/pain again, and stop contributing to their abuser's celebrity/clout by coming to their defense.I think I'm in a bad spot here tbh because I think my answer below will be as opposed to your post as can be actually......so I'll let others speak and stop dominating the thread (too late pacinoyes!) but I have said this a lot in the past: I personally cannot imagine a case where I do not separate the artist from the Art - literally no case. So just by that standard alone I'm an outlier in terms of cancel culture.......you used the phrase "do you want to die on that hill" (I've not included it).....that is an insanely odd expression to me - No, I want to live on a hill in a world that includes films Harvey Weinsten produced and Kevin Spacey acted in, and I don't know what Art Jeffrey Epstein ever created so let's leave him out....... (?) The bold part above made perfect sense to me up until that part I underlined - these people are NOT abusers they are "alleged abusers" so I would always come to both accuser and accused's defense. To me that is unreasonable to ask what you're asking in that last sentence above in any case like Elgort and Gibson (or Hoffman etc) ........... in criminal cases I won't come to the defense of Bill Cosby's actions since he been convicted of a crime but the Art he created is still in play to me.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jun 24, 2020 2:40:13 GMT
I'm with Pac on the "alleged abuser" thing. As a rule, I say innocent until proven guilty. Obviously, most things will never be proven guilty, but if I'm in a case of canceling Woody Allen because of one allegation, I can't in good conscience do so.
Now, with Gibson... this isn't isolated. He probably did do this. Ryder was asked this question and wasn't even stirring up shit, she just gave the same response she always has.
Am I going to boycott either one? No. If either of them makes stuff that I wanna watch, I'll do so (and if they don't, I won't). I find it disappointing that mob mentality sets in with every accusation though. If there's a history of accusations, I generally don't care if they get the boot. If it is a Woody Allen type case, that's where I get rankled.
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Post by idioticbunny on Jun 24, 2020 3:08:17 GMT
pacinoyes Martin Stett Okay, apologies for overlooking that word and I've edited my post with it. However, my point still stands. I just think we ought to listen to the alleged victims before rushing to defend someone simply due to their celebrity (which was the point I was trying to make). It's in that that their power lies.
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Post by Johnny_Hellzapoppin on Jun 24, 2020 12:08:18 GMT
Leaving cancel culture, and the side of twitter filled with venom and lies to one side. Mel Gibson is such a kingsize fuck-knuckle that I have no problem believing he said these things.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Jun 24, 2020 14:46:43 GMT
Few years ago, Ryder was asked in a TV interview about her opinion on Gary Oldman, who worked with her in Bram Stoker 's Dracula. She was like, I'm glad he doesn't have issues with alcohol anymore.
I never heard Oldman saying, I'm glad Ryder isn't a shoplifter anymore.
I have the feeling she likes remembering other people's faults too much.
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Post by thomasjerome on Jun 24, 2020 15:38:28 GMT
Few years ago, Ryder was asked in a TV interview about her opinion on Gary Oldman, who worked with her in Bram Stoker 's Dracula. She was like, I'm glad he doesn't have issues with alcohol anymore. I never heard Oldman saying, I'm glad Ryder isn't a shoplifter anymore. I have the feeling she likes remembering other people's faults too much. Yeah, a Jewish woman who lost big part of her father's family in the Holocaust should totally forget Gibson using a derogatory term to her and never talk about it when someone asks her if she ever faced with antisemitism in the industry. Like, really? As for Oldman, not sure what interview you refer to but in 2013 "Interview" magazine, she said she's happy for him winning his battle with alcoholism (something that Gary is very open about), yes but she did it when she was talking about her admiration for him. She called him "a dream", "a good friend", a great father, one of her "truly favorite actors" in the same interview and added that she "loves" him (most recently, also congratulated him at the SAG awards when he won) and blamed herself more for the problems she had on the set with him, callng it all a "teen drama". Once again, trying to put a blame on Winona in this situation or trying to discredit her claims by bringing up shoplifting incident is nonsense.
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cherry68
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Man is unhappy because he doesn't know he's happy. It's only that.
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Post by cherry68 on Jun 24, 2020 16:31:31 GMT
Few years ago, Ryder was asked in a TV interview about her opinion on Gary Oldman, who worked with her in Bram Stoker 's Dracula. She was like, I'm glad he doesn't have issues with alcohol anymore. I never heard Oldman saying, I'm glad Ryder isn't a shoplifter anymore. I have the feeling she likes remembering other people's faults too much. Yeah, a Jewish woman who lost big part of her father's family in the Holocaust should totally forget Gibson using a derogatory term to her and never talk about it when someone asks her if she ever faced with antisemitism in the industry. Like, really? As for Oldman, not sure what interview you refer to but in 2013 "Interview" magazine, she said she's happy for him winning his battle with alcoholism (something that Gary is very open about), yes but she did it when she was talking about her admiration for him. She called him "a dream", "a good friend", a great father, one of her "truly favorite actors" in the same interview and added that she "loves" him (most recently, also congratulated him at the SAG awards when he won) and blamed herself more for the problems she had on the set with him, callng it all a "teen drama". Once again, trying to put a blame on Winona in this situation or trying to discredit her claims by bringing up shoplifting incident is nonsense. We don't know if Gibson said her something derogatory or not (if he did, it's obviously unpleasant and offensive). But was he in a position to be considered "a problem in the industry"? If they ask you about antisemitism towards you in the industry, it means something like not being hired for a job because of your religion or ancestry. Otherwise it isn't an antisemitism in the industry case, but simply an offensive moron randomly insulting you.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Jun 25, 2020 0:44:22 GMT
Yeah, a Jewish woman who lost big part of her father's family in the Holocaust should totally forget Gibson using a derogatory term to her and never talk about it when someone asks her if she ever faced with antisemitism in the industry. Like, really? As for Oldman, not sure what interview you refer to but in 2013 "Interview" magazine, she said she's happy for him winning his battle with alcoholism (something that Gary is very open about), yes but she did it when she was talking about her admiration for him. She called him "a dream", "a good friend", a great father, one of her "truly favorite actors" in the same interview and added that she "loves" him (most recently, also congratulated him at the SAG awards when he won) and blamed herself more for the problems she had on the set with him, callng it all a "teen drama". Once again, trying to put a blame on Winona in this situation or trying to discredit her claims by bringing up shoplifting incident is nonsense. We don't know if Gibson said her something derogatory or not (if he did, it's obviously unpleasant and offensive). But was he in a position to be considered "a problem in the industry"? If they ask you about antisemitism towards you in the industry, it means something like not being hired for a job because of your religion or ancestry. Otherwise it isn't an antisemitism in the industry case, but simply an offensive moron randomly insulting you. This is a bad take.
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