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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 17, 2020 11:38:55 GMT
This is another round from our "GOAT polls" done in 2018 - these are the last 4 living American males who made our top 30: There were 10 in our top 30: DePac, Nicholson, Hackman, Dustin Hoffman..........and our last match-up: PSH (11) vs. Joaquin (12). Denzel Washington (13), Tom Hanks - tied for (20), Jeff Bridges (26), Leonardo DiCaprio (27) so the last 5 were pretty close - all within a mere 15 spots (12-27).
Since we did the 2018 GOAT poll Hanks and DiCaprio have become members of the 6 Oscar nomination club now. Who is your pick as the best actor of this group?
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Post by jimmalone on Jun 17, 2020 12:10:30 GMT
For me it's Hanx and actually quite comfortably so. I think the three others are all great actors, but I'd take his performances in Forrest Gump, Cast Away and Philadelphia over anything any of the three others have given me. And while he can't play "rough" as well as Washington or Bridges, on the other hand he easily smokes his rivals in doing comedy. Washington would be second for me. Not sure if I prefer Bridges or DiCaprio. The former hasn't really given a performance I dislike, but DiCaprio has higher heights.
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Jun 17, 2020 12:13:40 GMT
I really like these polls.
1. Hanks - Compared to all the others here who have 1 SUPER great performance I love, Hanks doesn't necessarily have that but he is consistently the best actor among this group. I really like what he did in Forrest Gump, SPR, Catch Me If You Can, The Ladykillers. And then to a lesser degree there are some other stuff most of which I at least like. The guy who's good in anything and I always take something away from every character he does, because his talent is extending himself to different versions of himself that may appear like similar characters, but there's always nuances to the ways he plays them. He's like Pacino or DeNiro in that regard, but he just doesn't hit as high.
2. Washington - Great in Man On Fire. Like Hanks, he also has the ability to extend himself across roles, and he's also usually good in most things. Problem is, his films are generally horrible, and maybe he does elevate them but not enough to where I care when he has to work from such bottom material. So my main takeaway from him is my MAJOR favorite performance from him, which is by far his best work imo.... Man on Fire. So I guess... read scripts better.
3. DiCaprio - Besides The Wolf of Wall Street, I'm not a huge Leo dude. But The Wolf of Wall Street is some types of amazing. He REALLY took me for a ride, made me almost forget for a second what I was watching and transmogrified me to that character and his world for 3 and half hours. I of course had to be brought down to earth and look at him outside of just that one performance. But yeah.... he was really some force in WOWS.
4. Bridges - Dude's good, but I never loved him as much as his fans do. I like Bill Murray and to me Murray is what Bridges is to most people, yet most people probably take Bridges. That's fine.... but I never docked on his boat like some people do. But... he is INCREDIBLE in True Grit. Like.... the one performance from him I LOVE indisputibly. It renders the rest of his movies irrelevant. Like it isn't even close for me.
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Archie
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Post by Archie on Jun 17, 2020 12:14:54 GMT
Bridges takes this with ease. He's the quintessential American actor if you ask me.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 17, 2020 12:51:31 GMT
Washington, easily.
One of the great film and stage actors of all time. Complex, a great movie star and method actor, but also a character actor with a Shakespearen and classical range. Arguably the GOAT. Nobody else on this list is expected to one day be a major King Lear on the biggest of stages, except this guy.
Bridges is great. He doesnt have the peak level of Washington (ie Malcom X, Fences), and you wouldn't ask him to play Shakespeare, but he's almost as consistent. I'd rate him higher, if like Washington, he was also a stage actor
Hanks is nice, but people are starting to overcompensate and throw pity parties for him because they know his "nice guy" schtick has made him almost underrated as a pure thespian in wider circles. He's America's dad and everything, and an extremely likable and watchable and a terrific movie star, but he's the ultimate comfort zone actor.
DiCaprio. Much improved. Spent the first portion of his career being relentlessly miscast, but has grown into his talent and has started picking roles right for him and executing them strongly. Like Bridges, loses points for just being a "movie star".
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Post by Martin Stett on Jun 17, 2020 12:57:01 GMT
Hanks by a hair over Washington, but it depends on the day for me. I'd love to see them swap careers in a way, see what Hanks would do with Training Day and what Washington would do with Big.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 17, 2020 13:03:06 GMT
Hanks by a hair over Washington, but it depends on the day for me. I'd love to see them swap careers in a way, see what Hanks would do with Training Day and what Washington would do with Big. Hanks in Training Day would be a fucking disaster. It's just not in him. You might as well ask him to play Jake Lamotta. Even Washington only pulled that off by ad-libbing half the screenplay. I actually think Washington could pull off Big to a good level . He's never worked with a a comedic script that good, but he pulled off a similarly wholesome child-like character in The Preacher's Wife very well and his comic timing in things like Carbon Copy has been good.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 17, 2020 13:09:22 GMT
I don't vote in my own polls (because that's stupid) but this is a really good matchup if I do say so myself : Washington is not strong in "facts"/metrics overall as I've said a lot before but he has a whole different metric in stage work which is a big, singular plus here. In head to head matchups if you just use those actor "facts"/metrics I always talk about - Hanks beats like almost anyone one on one - he has no weaknesses in acting metrics ....... and I've already said long-term he'll be remembered as THE GOAT imo (whether deserved or not). DiCaprio will eventually surpass everyone for those "facts"/metrics I reckon and already is comparable at this stage of his career as anyone ever - I think he is the only one with a shot to catch Nicholson's 12 Oscar nods ......among other things. Bridges is just so solid across the board - solid in metrics, solid in the diversity of his best roles......I always say he is the one actor of the US "biggies" who doesn't evoke a specific past other actor too much - ie he is not "modeled" off an acting type the way the other 3 here are.......... Archie phrased it nicely in his comment "quintessential American"........ the whole point of picking him is off of perceptions like that. He's like an alternative choice but he is in the metrics part of it too - he's major and "alternative" simultaneously........quite a neat trick that is tbh. These 4 all would be in the top ~15 level GOAT American actors to me......
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Post by TerryMontana on Jun 17, 2020 13:15:20 GMT
I've already said before I'm a Hanks fan.
(another poll including Denzel??)
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 17, 2020 13:29:06 GMT
I've already said before I'm a Hanks fan. (another poll including Denzel??)Hey don't shoot the messenger Terry! - This is my first poll ever that's included him in it ............. I've always been afraid to do one tbh
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Post by Martin Stett on Jun 17, 2020 13:31:58 GMT
Hanks by a hair over Washington, but it depends on the day for me. I'd love to see them swap careers in a way, see what Hanks would do with Training Day and what Washington would do with Big. Hanks in Training Day would be a fucking disaster. It's just not in him. You might as well ask him to play Jake Lamotta. Even Washington only pulled that off by ad-libbing half the screenplay. I actually think Washington could pull off Big to a good level . He's never worked with a a comedic script that good, but he pulled off a similarly wholesome child-like character in The Preacher's Wife very well and his comic timing in things like Carbon Copy has been good. Well, I wouldn't know about the ad-libbing. The movie was pretty bad and Washington only managed to keep it watchable, but I have a higher opinion of Hanks than you do. I think he'd make a decent Jake LaMotta, actually. I'd rather see him in Pesci's role, though. With Washington as Jake.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 17, 2020 13:38:22 GMT
I don't think Hanks will ever be seriously be regarded as the GOAT (even jf he's in greatest actor convos). He'll be a beloved movie star and respected, but that nice guy thing is not what other actors tend to aspire to. He doesnt generate that kind of peer based reverence. You just have to look at how Shia Lebeouf took being compared to Hanks in an magazine profile as an insult, and said he'd rather be compared to "darker" actors like Joaquin Phoenix or Gary Oldman.
Washington does generate that kind of peer based reverence, which is signigicant. Looking at a poll on another movie forums, like Goldderby, he was the highest rated American actor, over Nicholson, DeNiro, Hanks, Pacino and Hoffman, so these things can vary from space to space. www.goldderby.com/forum/movies/who-is-the-greatest-male-actor-among-these-options/
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 17, 2020 13:45:46 GMT
Hanks in Training Day would be a fucking disaster. It's just not in him. You might as well ask him to play Jake Lamotta. Even Washington only pulled that off by ad-libbing half the screenplay. I actually think Washington could pull off Big to a good level . He's never worked with a a comedic script that good, but he pulled off a similarly wholesome child-like character in The Preacher's Wife very well and his comic timing in things like Carbon Copy has been good. Well, I wouldn't know about the ad-libbing. The movie was pretty bad and Washington only managed to keep it watchable, but I have a higher opinion of Hanks than you do. I think he'd make a decent Jake LaMotta, actually. I'd rather see him in Pesci's role, though. With Washington as Jake. I have quite a high opinion of Hanks actually. What he's good at, few are better (I said as much talking about his Forrest Gump performace the other day). He's the relatable everyman. I just have a realistic appraisal of his dramatic range and it's limitations. To me fantasy casting him in Training Day, Raging Bull, There Will Be Blood...or anything that requires a deep reservoir of dark, malevolent energy, intimidation and cynicism is just a fundemental misunderstanding and overestimation of his capability as an actor. He can't do it (certainly not to the levels required for those roles). It's not what he's good at. He is good at other things, but I think some of his bigger fans imagine he can do more than he's actually shown. Even in The Bonfire Of The Vanities, he was terribly miscast, and while the character was meant to be venal and cynical, it wasn't supposed to be anywhere as dark as those other roles I mentioned played by other actors. And he still couldn't pull it off. Hanks is very watchable and easy to root for, but he's a somewhat limited dramatic actor range-wise. But he's a smart movie star, and wisely tends to stick to what he knows.
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Post by countjohn on Jun 17, 2020 16:56:58 GMT
Well I think it's between Hanks and Washington and I was going to go with Hanks at first glance because of his deeper filmography, Denzel has wasted so much time in crummy action movies. But if you look at Denzel's top parts (his two Oscar winning roles, Malcolm X, Fences), Hanks has only approached that stratosphere once with Gump and even then it doesn't top Denzel in Malcolm X.
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Post by stephen on Jun 17, 2020 17:20:04 GMT
Bridges's holy trifecta (The Big Lebowski, Hell or High Water and Bad Times at the El Royale) are three of the four best performances given by all of these guys put together, and I think he's a deceptively powerful actor who is underestimated by his charisma, his general likability, and (most importantly) his willingness to be a collaborative filmmaker. There is no ego in Bridges's work. He's got a few bad movies and even one or two underwhelming performances to his name, but looking at the sheer breadth and body of his work, he's incredibly skilled and should be given more respect than he has.
Washington and Hanks are interchangeable for me. I think Hanks has the better filmography by far (and it's not even remotely close), but I think Washington is capable of breaking out of his comfort zone more (even if I think both actors have a set brand that they more or less adhere to; Denzel's just happens to be more applicable and versatile) and is more willing to shake things up. Both are insanely consistent, and even though I generally prefer Hanks, it's usually because of the projects he does and how they serve him, whereas Washington usually has to elevate lesser material by sheer dint of his wattage.
DiCaprio's really only been truly great within the last decade, as I found his performances throughout the 1990s and 2000s to be far too overwrought and he had a nasty tendency to be miscast. He's a great actor now that he's harnessed his niche, but I would easily rate him at the bottom of this pack in terms of talent. I don't really think it's fair to group him with these guys who have at least 15 years' head start on him.
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Post by Drish on Jun 17, 2020 17:23:48 GMT
Of these, I prefer Bridges the most.
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Post by pessimusreincarnated on Jun 17, 2020 17:40:36 GMT
DiCaprio definitely has the most interesting career at the current moment, but taking entire bodies of work into consideration, it's definitely Washington for me. He almost always elevates the movies he's in be they good, bad, or anything in between.
Jeff Bridges would be trailing close behind those two, he's given iconic performances since the '70s and is still managing to surprise and impress in his older age. Hell or High Water might even be my favorite performance of his, and his recent supporting roles in movies like Only the Brave and Bad Times at the El Royale really stand out.
I also love Tom Hanks but he's a clear #4 for me. Always a reliable and class actor, but aside from Cast Away and parts of Captain Phillips, I don't know if he's ever struck me as being an acting virtuoso. I just wouldn't get as excited to see his name headlining a movie as I would the other three.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 17, 2020 17:41:07 GMT
Bridges's holy trifecta ( The Big Lebowski, Hell or High Water and Bad Times at the El Royale) are three of the four best performances given by all of these guys put together, and I think he's a deceptively powerful actor who is underestimated by his charisma, his general likability, and (most importantly) his willingness to be a collaborative filmmaker. There is no ego in Bridges's work. He's got a few bad movies and even one or two underwhelming performances to his name, but looking at the sheer breadth and body of his work, he's incredibly skilled and should be given more respect than he has.Washington and Hanks are interchangeable for me. I think Hanks has the better filmography by far (and it's not even remotely close), but I think Washington is capable of breaking out of his comfort zone more (even if I think both actors have a set brand that they more or less adhere to; Denzel's just happens to be more applicable and versatile) and is more willing to shake things up. Both are insanely consistent, and even though I generally prefer Hanks, it's usually because of the projects he does and how they serve him, whereas Washington usually has to elevate lesser material by sheer dint of his wattage. DiCaprio's really only been truly great within the last decade, as I found his performances throughout the 1990s and 2000s to be far too overwrought and he had a nasty tendency to be miscast. He's a great actor now that he's harnessed his niche, but I would easily rate him at the bottom of this pack in terms of talent. I don't really think it's fair to group him with these guys who have at least 15 years' head start on him. I dunno, I'd say his respect level is pretty fair, what with seven Oscar nominations and a win. Everyone wants that top level of respect, but no one wants to put in the work to get it. Washington seperated himself from his "movie star" peers by conquering theatre, in the biggest roles, in the biggest challenges. To the point, where you could put him next to all these highly venerated British stage greats like Ian McKellen or even Mark Rylance, and they have to treat him as an equal in that medium. How many great American film actors can you truly say that about from the last 30 years? Other than the now disgraced Kevin Spacey (who earned enough stage respect to be allowed to run a major London theatre) and the now dead Philip Seymour Hoffman, it's only Washington who put in the work to the extent neccesary. People play down the value of stage on boards lilke this (fair enough, we talk primarily film), but someone like Bridges could have had that extra respect you talk about if he conquered theatre. It makes a difference.
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Post by ibbi on Jun 17, 2020 17:48:46 GMT
The rest of them are all Mr. Lebowski, he is The Dude.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 17, 2020 17:53:43 GMT
Bridges of course is potentially the only GOAT of all time contender (and like I said I don't consider him "that" close to that real title - none of these guys are imo - but he's top 15ish like all these guys are so that's pretty major) to triumph in a TV series after triumphing in film........his TV series due later this year with John Lithgow. It is an exciting proposition - not a miniseries or TV movie but a weekly series - potentially his own Tony Soprano or Walter White or Frank Underwood. If he pulls that off - which would be a VERY Jeff Bridges thing to do it will be pretty cool - that's going into rare movie star/series star territory which only Glenn Close has really pulled off for a top level actor (this is arguable for Spacey, Hoffman, Pacino but Spacey I don't consider a "GOAT" contender and the other 2 were more minor shows or in Hoffman's case got an early cancellation unfortunately)
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Post by quetee on Jun 17, 2020 17:54:58 GMT
Bridges's holy trifecta ( The Big Lebowski, Hell or High Water and Bad Times at the El Royale) are three of the four best performances given by all of these guys put together, and I think he's a deceptively powerful actor who is underestimated by his charisma, his general likability, and (most importantly) his willingness to be a collaborative filmmaker. There is no ego in Bridges's work. He's got a few bad movies and even one or two underwhelming performances to his name, but looking at the sheer breadth and body of his work, he's incredibly skilled and should be given more respect than he has.Washington and Hanks are interchangeable for me. I think Hanks has the better filmography by far (and it's not even remotely close), but I think Washington is capable of breaking out of his comfort zone more (even if I think both actors have a set brand that they more or less adhere to; Denzel's just happens to be more applicable and versatile) and is more willing to shake things up. Both are insanely consistent, and even though I generally prefer Hanks, it's usually because of the projects he does and how they serve him, whereas Washington usually has to elevate lesser material by sheer dint of his wattage. DiCaprio's really only been truly great within the last decade, as I found his performances throughout the 1990s and 2000s to be far too overwrought and he had a nasty tendency to be miscast. He's a great actor now that he's harnessed his niche, but I would easily rate him at the bottom of this pack in terms of talent. I don't really think it's fair to group him with these guys who have at least 15 years' head start on him. I dunno, I'd say his respect level is pretty fair, what with seven Oscar nominations and a win. Everyone wants that top level of respect, but no one wants to put in the work to get it. Washington seperated himself from his "movie star" peers by conquering theatre, in the biggest roles, in the biggest challenges. To the point, where you could put him next to all these highly venerated British stage greats like Ian McKellen or even Mark Rylance, and they have to treat him as an equal in that medium. How many great American film actors can you truly say that about from the last 30 years? Other than the now disgraced Kevin Spacey (who earned enough stage respect to be allowed to run a major London theatre) and the now dead Philip Seymour Hoffman, it's only Washington who put in the work to the extent neccesary. People play down the value of stage on boards lilke this (fair enough, we talk primarily film), but someone like Bridges could have had that extra respect you talk about if he conquered theatre. It makes a difference. It's too bad Spacey is an outcast now cause no matter the role, he's fascinating to watch.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 17, 2020 18:07:42 GMT
I dunno, I'd say his respect level is pretty fair, what with seven Oscar nominations and a win. Everyone wants that top level of respect, but no one wants to put in the work to get it. Washington seperated himself from his "movie star" peers by conquering theatre, in the biggest roles, in the biggest challenges. To the point, where you could put him next to all these highly venerated British stage greats like Ian McKellen or even Mark Rylance, and they have to treat him as an equal in that medium. How many great American film actors can you truly say that about from the last 30 years? Other than the now disgraced Kevin Spacey (who earned enough stage respect to be allowed to run a major London theatre) and the now dead Philip Seymour Hoffman, it's only Washington who put in the work to the extent neccesary. People play down the value of stage on boards lilke this (fair enough, we talk primarily film), but someone like Bridges could have had that extra respect you talk about if he conquered theatre. It makes a difference. It's too bad Spacey is an outcast now cause no matter the role, he's fascinating to watch. Spacey is pretty much the flip side of Tom Hanks. Spacey really specialises in messed up, morally shady, or sleazy characters. But after he won his Oscar for American Beauty, he decided he wanted to play these Hanks-like everyman roles, and it just didn't fit him at all. Things like The Shipping News, Pay It Forward, The Life Of David Gale....and he was miscast in all of them. He lacked that effortless everyman relatability that makes Hanks effective in those parts ( Washington and Bridges can also do the everyman thing as well) On the other hand, Hanks can't play many of Spacey's really dark or unlikable parts. They each have something in their dramatic range that the other lacks. If you combined Hanks and Spacey's dramatic strengths together, it'd make a single unstoppable actor.
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Post by stephen on Jun 17, 2020 18:24:26 GMT
I dunno, I'd say his respect level is pretty fair, what with seven Oscar nominations and a win. Everyone wants that top level of respect, but no one wants to put in the work to get it. Washington seperated himself from his "movie star" peers by conquering theatre, in the biggest roles, in the biggest challenges. To the point, where you could put him next to all these highly venerated British stage greats like Ian McKellen or even Mark Rylance, and they have to treat him as an equal in that medium. How many great American film actors can you truly say that about from the last 30 years? Other than the now disgraced Kevin Spacey (who earned enough stage respect to be allowed to run a major London theatre) and the now dead Philip Seymour Hoffman, it's only Washington who put in the work to the extent neccesary. People play down the value of stage on boards lilke this (fair enough, we talk primarily film), but someone like Bridges could have had that extra respect you talk about if he conquered theatre. It makes a difference. When I talk about respect, I talk about the fact that despite a career spanning 50+ years and seven Oscar nominations (and a win), Bridges isn't usually mentioned as being one of the top names like a lot of his peers. When we're constantly bickering over who wins out over Pacino/De Niro/DDL/Washington/Hanks, you never hear Bridges's name brought up despite the fact that he's got the awards hardware to challenge them, he's got the auteur cred behind him (Coens, Bogdanovich, Huston, Cimino, Coppola, Gilliam, Weir, Scott, Lumet, etc.), and we've seen the sheer breadth of his catalogue from child actor to heartthrob to character actor to elder statesman and he's never had a fallow period. His star may not have burned as instantly bright as '70s-era Pacino/De Niro, let's say, but it's burned longer without fading, and I think it's kind of criminal that we don't talk much about Bridges as being in contention for being one of the greats, when I think he absolutely could challenge these guys at his peak. Maybe it's because he makes it look so damned easy. Do I wish he'd do stage? Sure. But stagecraft alone wouldn't earn him the respect he should have. The bottom line is that we take the Dude for granted.
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Post by sirchuck23 on Jun 17, 2020 18:28:56 GMT
Washington, because he's a master actor in front of the camera and on stage. Can do Training Day on Saturday and then Macbeth on Tuesday. Seen several A-List film actors over the years talk about their dream of performing on stage, but fear failing and damaging their reputation. Denzel did Julius Caesar in 2005 to mixed reviews after 15 years away from stage, some would've said ok and that's it (Julia Roberts, Julianne Moore, Jessica Chastain, Bruce Willis, etc.). He said "fu/k it" and came back with Fences, then A Raisin in the Sun, and then The Iceman Cometh having success each time and great acclaim. Now he's respected just as much for his stage work than as a film actor and has earned the reputation as New York Theater critic Charles Isherwood put in his review of The Iceman Cometh "one of Broadway's finest leading men". Give me the Hollywood A-List superstar leading man who can do Malcolm X, Alonzo Harris, and King Lear. An actors' actor.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 17, 2020 18:41:06 GMT
I dunno, I'd say his respect level is pretty fair, what with seven Oscar nominations and a win. Everyone wants that top level of respect, but no one wants to put in the work to get it. Washington seperated himself from his "movie star" peers by conquering theatre, in the biggest roles, in the biggest challenges. To the point, where you could put him next to all these highly venerated British stage greats like Ian McKellen or even Mark Rylance, and they have to treat him as an equal in that medium. How many great American film actors can you truly say that about from the last 30 years? Other than the now disgraced Kevin Spacey (who earned enough stage respect to be allowed to run a major London theatre) and the now dead Philip Seymour Hoffman, it's only Washington who put in the work to the extent neccesary. People play down the value of stage on boards lilke this (fair enough, we talk primarily film), but someone like Bridges could have had that extra respect you talk about if he conquered theatre. It makes a difference. When I talk about respect, I talk about the fact that despite a career spanning 50+ years and seven Oscar nominations (and a win), Bridges isn't usually mentioned as being one of the top names like a lot of his peers. When we're constantly bickering over who wins out over Pacino/De Niro/DDL/Washington/Hanks, you never hear Bridges's name brought up despite the fact that he's got the awards hardware to challenge them, he's got the auteur cred behind him (Coens, Bogdanovich, Huston, Cimino, Coppola, Gilliam, Weir, Scott, Lumet, etc.), and we've seen the sheer breadth of his catalogue from child actor to heartthrob to character actor to elder statesman and he's never had a fallow period. His star may not have burned as instantly bright as '70s-era Pacino/De Niro, let's say, but it's burned longer without fading, and I think it's kind of criminal that we don't talk much about Bridges as being in contention for being one of the greats, when I think he absolutely could challenge these guys at his peak. Maybe it's because he makes it look so damned easy. Do I wish he'd do stage? Sure. But stagecraft alone wouldn't earn him the respect he should have. The bottom line is that we take the Dude for granted. His peaks may be an issue. Many people single out his greatest role as " The Dude", and while it's an iconic character we all love, I don't know if anyone really percieves nailing a lazy slacker in a lightweight comic farce as the height of all-time great acting. Bridges is one of those guys I nominate a lot, but I don't think I actually give a win, so I'm not as high on his peaks as you are, and maybe others feel similarly. Stagecraft would have helped him a tonne, in elevating his reputation and putting him at the centre of those conversations. If he had the exact same film career, but was also nailing Macbeth or Death Of A Salesman on Broadway and winning Tonys, the amount of thinkpieces declaring him "America's greatest living actor" would be through the fucking roof. It would elevate him further in the media, and that would trickle down to fans.
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